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Thread: Who's rights will it be?

  1. #21

    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by raptor84 View Post
    No written contract then by default ... taken from http://www.ipos.gov.sg/main/aboutip/...ipnrights.html


    So techincally they own the copyright by default..
    Yes Raptor has answered the question well. In simple layman terms, the one who pays the money owes the rights.

    In this case, agency or spa (client) pays MediaCorp to use the artiste for the shoot. Hence the paying party owns the rights to the photos. The photographer who is in turn paid to do the shoot is just a "contractor" hence owes no rights to the photos. And when MediaCorp finds out photographer uses the photos for his or her own purposes. MediaCorp will demand the removal of the photos failing which they will sue. Also even if agency or spa does not sue you, you can be assured you will be blacklisted by agency.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by centuryegg View Post
    Yes Raptor has answered the question well. In simple layman terms, the one who pays the money owes the rights.

    In this case, agency or spa (client) pays MediaCorp to use the artiste for the shoot. Hence the paying party owns the rights to the photos. The photographer who is in turn paid to do the shoot is just a "contractor" hence owes no rights to the photos. And when MediaCorp finds out photographer uses the photos for his or her own purposes. MediaCorp will demand the removal of the photos failing which they will sue. Also even if agency or spa does not sue you, you can be assured you will be blacklisted by agency.
    Wrong.

    Photographer will own rights of all work created, for purpose of self promotion, in this case web portfolio.

    Only situation is, if photographer explicitly sign away all rights.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Yes for self promotion. Unless you've signed away your rights as a commissioned work. Works the same way with a lot other things. The only problem is if you're threatened by the company. You might have to fight it.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by zekai View Post
    Wrong.

    Photographer will own rights of all work created, for purpose of self promotion, in this case web portfolio.

    Only situation is, if photographer explicitly sign away all rights.
    Try that in this case and see who wins in the end.....

  5. #25

    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Anyway no offence if some find that I am offensive in not protecting the rights of photographers but just offering some friendly advice to the TS. So as to prevent him from getting himself into unnecessary trouble. As said, simple ask MediaCorp for permission and if they say no. Leave it as it is. As of now... no one is big enough to stand up to them and win. Besides do you really have the resources to go fight a law suit with them? As mentioned, MediaCorp is VERY sticky about their artistes and will definetely take action against anyone who they deem is using their images to profit.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by centuryegg View Post
    Try that in this case and see who wins in the end.....
    going by your logic, i must be incredibly lucky so far...

    so too are are some of our more illustrious local photographers.

    www.weekhim.com
    www.geoffang.com

  7. #27

    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by zekai View Post
    going by your logic, i must be incredibly lucky so far...

    so too are are some of our more illustrious local photographers.

    www.weekhim.com
    www.geoffang.com
    Well maybe you are lucky and well as the TS has said, Agency has told him better not to. Anyway I offered advice trying to help and not wanting to argue that I am right. That is really not important. Have personally seen lawyer letters served to photographers who did so and just offering some advice to TS who seems very new into this.

    As for our illustrious local photographers, I am sure they did politely ask for permission first from MediaCorp or at least inform them about it.
    Anyway I shall cease saying anything in this case. Good luck TS!
    Last edited by centuryegg; 16th January 2007 at 02:25 PM.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by centuryegg View Post
    Well maybe you are lucky and well as the TS has said, Agency has told him better not to. Anyway I offered advice trying to help and not wanting to argue that I am right. That is really not important. Have personally seen lawyer letters served to photographers who did so and just offering some advice to TS who seems very new into this.

    As for our illustrious local photographers, I am sure they did politely ask for permission first from MediaCorp or at least inform them about it.
    Anyway I shall cease saying anything in this case. Good luck TS!
    oh, please help contribute.

    i am clear regarding my stance. photographer own rights for self promotion unless otherwise.

    i do not think hear-say and mis-information should be taken as the truth.

    i am of the opinion the nature of work of your friends may be different, thats why they were served lawyer letter. care to share what type of picture.

    oh, and as for our illustrious photographers portfolio, i know what i am talking about.

    thank you.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by centuryegg View Post
    Correction, encountered such cases before. Speaking from someone who has dealt with MediaCorp. Answer is NO unless you want to be sued by MediaCorp.

    The deal was made between MediaCorp and the Spa. The Spa paid MediaCorp XXX amount of $ to have its artiste endorse the Spa. You are paid as a contractor by agency or spa to take the photos whose rights belong to spa for its use in it's publicity campaign.

    If you really want to use it, I would advise you to seek MediaCorp's permission. If not you will just join the long line of people that got sued for using the photos in their website, brochure etc etc....
    Please la. I shot pictures of MediaCorp artistes for commission works loh. I also use these pictures on a regular basis for my portfolio book, e-mails and my sale meet. Then I am sue many time over, if what you say is true. My lawyer friend seen do agree with me lei. I guess they are playing me out also.

    I have say many time. If for self promoting or portfolio is ok as long as you are careful not to accidently release the usage right to an other party.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by centuryegg View Post
    Anyway no offence if some find that I am offensive in not protecting the rights of photographers but just offering some friendly advice to the TS. So as to prevent him from getting himself into unnecessary trouble. As said, simple ask MediaCorp for permission and if they say no. Leave it as it is. As of now... no one is big enough to stand up to them and win. Besides do you really have the resources to go fight a law suit with them? As mentioned, MediaCorp is VERY sticky about their artistes and will definetely take action against anyone who they deem is using their images to profit.
    The question is - what makes you think you're right?

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by centuryegg View Post
    Anyway no offence if some find that I am offensive in not protecting the rights of photographers but just offering some friendly advice to the TS. So as to prevent him from getting himself into unnecessary trouble. As said, simple ask MediaCorp for permission and if they say no. Leave it as it is. As of now... no one is big enough to stand up to them and win. Besides do you really have the resources to go fight a law suit with them? As mentioned, MediaCorp is VERY sticky about their artistes and will definetely take action against anyone who they deem is using their images to profit.
    Friendly advice we can accept. But ill inform ones are dangerous. Zekai and me are professional photographer that been there and done that. If you want to do this trade dun you think you should know the law. There 3500 lawyer in singapore, if none of them is your friend. Then pay the $$$$ ask some advice. Hahaha

  12. #32

    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Apologies then from me a humble nobody to our two professional photographers who have been there and done that. Okay I am wrong then and I seek your most gracious forgiveness for giving wrong info... Now let me find those photos I have of MediaCorp artises that I took photos of and post them on my blog.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by singscott View Post
    Friendly advice we can accept. But ill inform ones are dangerous. Zekai and me are professional photographer that been there and done that. If you want to do this trade dun you think you should know the law. There 3500 lawyer in singapore, if none of them is your friend. Then pay the $$$$ ask some advice. Hahaha
    "risk is limited"?

    hahaha.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by centuryegg View Post
    Apologies then from me a humble nobody to our two professional photographers who have been there and done that. Okay I am wrong then and I seek your most gracious forgiveness for giving wrong info... Now let me find those photos I have of MediaCorp artises that I took photos of and post them on my blog.
    hey dude, chill!
    yeah man, let examine why your friends/ your pictures were not approriate.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    always make the client sign an agreement...black words on white paper, everything is clear...even if the client is a good friend...it shows more professionalism as well...

    in this case, due to a lack of an agreement with the agency, ask the agency what is the agreement they signed with the spa and mediacorp with regards to rights...if they did sign over all rights and exclusivity, including self-promotion for photog (you never know, they might have), then too bad...if not, then it is still good form to only include the image on your website after it has been used by the client...

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    its not about if they (agency) sign away all rights.... its up to the photographer to sign away his own rights.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Hello. I'm a professional photographer in Brunei and have in the past two years been engaged in photography services (freelance) for clients ranging from banks to Oil & Gas organisations to Event organisers and so forth. While I do not have anything concrete to contribute here, I am following this subject closely to see where it leads to.

    In most cases of my work to date, my quotes have strictly been commercial Terms and Conditions and the subject of intellectual copyright seem somewhat taboo to be included in the proposal. I say taboo quite simply in that if you condition your clients to accept your quote based on a law that may be ambiguous to a non-legal professional and based on information I am able to obtain from The EC-ASEAN Intellectual Property Rights Cooperation Programme (ECAP II) on "How to enforce your IPR" I don't feel confident I have that right without parting with a lot of money in legal representation.

    How utterly disappointing I find IPOS has only a one-liner statement that does not protect the interests of its own photographers or do you people think it's actually outdated and photographers need more support from the government? I suppose if you look at this from an economic perspective, there's big money in the film industry compared to still photographs and you only have to look at how much brain cells have gone into Ownership Rights vs the one-liner.

    Photographer or artist: If a photographer is engaged to take a photograph of a person or an artist is engaged to draw a portrait of a person, that person owns the copyright.
    I came across what I think is a fairer and mature handling of copyright by Copyright Agency Limited (CAL) Australia, a document called Copyright For Photographers.

    Coming back quickly to my own experience with corporate clients, as an example, we have two kinds of banks operating here - International and Local. It surprises me that a local bank had drawn up a legal document when I was engaged to produce commercial photographs for them which quite frankly works in my favour. It's not a copyright document per se but rather a Model Release Agreement stipulating that the models I had engaged to produce and appear in the bank's flyers and future promotional ads have agreed to allow the bank to use their images unconditionally while I (the photographer) reserves the right to use the images to promote my work. They agree that in the event I choose to do so, ie images shown as portfolio of my photography, it also works in their interests (additional avenue of advertisememts of bank products and services). The international banks on the other hand, are very strict about this, though nothing is explicitly expressed in the quotes/purchase order, they verbally indicate that I absolutely cannot use images that I have produced for them on my website or any self-advertising materials. I have agreed to proceed with the work because of a number of reasons: I was building a portfolio and because we're a small community, I do not need to leverage the work that I've produced for them to promote my name. The fact that members of the bank conscientiously recommend me to their friends does more for my business and name than indulge in a self-righteous pity. At the end of the day, we learnt not to bite the hand that feeds you. Ultimately, the choice is ours and if we feel we are taken advantage of, we can always choose not to accept the assignment and move on.
    Last edited by janshim; 19th January 2007 at 09:07 AM.

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by janshim View Post
    Hello. I'm a professional photographer in Brunei and have in the past two years been engaged in photography services (freelance) for clients ranging from banks to Oil & Gas organisations to Event organisers and so forth. While I do not have anything concrete to contribute here, I am following this subject closely to see where it leads to.

    ............

    At the end of the day, we are learnt not to bite the hand that feeds you. Ultimately, the choice is ours and if we feel we are taken advantage of, we can always choose not to accept the assignment and move on.
    correct janshin, you do see that it take a specially drafted document to take away your rights.

    as to if it is a wise decision to sign away all rights, it really depend if you are happy with the compensation. (perpetual right is a lot of money)

    i agree sometime we are tempted to sign away the rights given that its a big account or that we never seen that type of (big) money before. reality is this. we will be killing the professional market by signing away rights without fair compensation value. just call any modelling agency and ask what is the cost for perpetual usage, you will be shocked. Photographer copyriight should not be any less valuable then the models.

    if they can use your picture perpetually, who is going to shoot new pictures. who is going to engage new photographers. we will end up killing ourselves.

    sorry it has now digress to copyright management but i feel it is still somewhat relevant.

    for useful reference, we can look at ppas website. www.ppas.sg
    i also have another thread in this same forum on copyright and usage, please take a look there.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Singapore copyright law sadly do not protect photographer as much as law in US or Most part of the world. If we do not state how much right of usage to the end client, they can use and abuse your work any way they want. Where client from US and most part of world, it the client who must state how much rights of usage they want and pay the photographer asking price for that usage.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Let ignore issues of rights since these were not clarified at all in your negotiations.
    1. you were paid for your services of shooting. and you gave them the files without any restrictions
    2. actress was paid by spa co (ie model agency was paid by spa co) - assume some model release was given to spa co.
    3. you have no model release, no agreement in place to allow you to use these images for self promo. - there is some slight gray area over the term "not using for commercial purposes" since self promo is a commercial purpose.
    4. Mediacorp has been know to be very protective over the use of the actress's images - ie they have a legal department is not shy to use them. Yeah I know you got rights but to defend those rights you need a bxxxxxxxxxr make that lawyer. That mean cash which leads us to those who have rights but not the means to enforce them are almost as good as rightless.Best course of action - talk to your contact at the spa co - tell them you are going to use the pictures for your portfolio - ask if there is an issue with this. They may not allow you to since logically for you to try to sell services to their competitors and show their concept. Or you could do first and apologise latter if ever - has its own merits and risks.

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