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Thread: Finally, Singapore purchase new Main Battle Tank : Leopard 2A4

  1. #201
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    Default Re: Finally, Singapore purchase new Main Battle Tank : Leopard 2A4

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tiger View Post
    Agree that it is heavy, 3 times more heavier than AMX-13.

    But I believe SAF should have already study on this already, if not, they would have source for M1A2 or Merkava (70 tons monsters)

    On the bright, it provide more protection, more firepower and more mobility.

    They probably skipped the M1A2 Abrams coz its a fuel guzzler.... Merkava is really heavy but good protection, has air conditioning and is combat proven - but being an Isreali product, may have some implications in the region...

    Leopard 2A4, not a bad choice but old... The later variants all adopted sloping turrents to reduce the effectiveness of munitions hitting it. The A4 version has vertical sides. A very welcome target for any anti-tank weapons. Also better firecontrol in the later versions (>A5).

    My guess is that we got em used and cheap... and probably gonna pimp it up to a new variant.... like we always do. Anyway, it already has stabilized sights and gun - this allows firing on the move (for photogs.... its like having VR or IS on the gun and targetting). So like you said, its already an improvement over the small AMX 13SM1 - which is showing signs of fatigue after all these years.

    Lastly, its a German tank. Arguably one of the better tank makers since WW2. So are we gonna rename our units Panzer Battalion? And start issueing smart black tank commande jackets?
    Last edited by Zplus; 13th December 2006 at 10:13 AM.

  2. #202
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    Default Re: Finally, Singapore purchase new Main Battle Tank : Leopard 2A4

    Quote Originally Posted by Wowee View Post
    Wonder how they are going to bring the tanks over to enemy soil...
    Either just drive across the caus... ...er... bridge or ship them over on a barge or LST.

  3. #203

    Default Re: Finally, Singapore purchase new Main Battle Tank : Leopard 2A4

    Our Scandinavian friends managed to upgrade their A4s to A5s. So no doubt the chassis of the tanks we are getting are second hand, with upgrades to the FCS, RA, Ammo, etc they will be brought up to A5/A6 standards.

  4. #204

    Default Re: Finally, Singapore purchase new Main Battle Tank : Leopard 2A4

    Quote Originally Posted by Zplus View Post
    My guess is that we got em used and cheap... and probably gonna pimp it up to a new variant.... like we always do. Anyway, it already has stabilized sights and gun - this allows firing on the move (for photogs.... its like having VR or IS on the gun and targetting). So like you said, its already an improvement over the small AMX 13SM1 - which is showing signs of fatigue after all these years.
    Saw in another military forum that our deal is somewhat similar to what the Norwegians paid for their tankers. - US$300M with support included

  5. #205
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    Default Re: Finally, Singapore purchase new Main Battle Tank : Leopard 2A4

    Quote Originally Posted by Klose View Post
    Saw in another military forum that our deal is somewhat similar to what the Norwegians paid for their tankers. - US$300M with support included
    Probably included all the ammo in the deal too... hahaha! Its not a bad tank.

  6. #206

    Default Re: Finally, Singapore purchase new Main Battle Tank : Leopard 2A4

    Another reason why the M1A2 Abrams was avoided is due to it's DU Armour.

  7. #207
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    Default Re: Finally, Singapore purchase new Main Battle Tank : Leopard 2A4

    Quote Originally Posted by Klose View Post
    Our Scandinavian friends managed to upgrade their A4s to A5s. So no doubt the chassis of the tanks we are getting are second hand, with upgrades to the FCS, RA, Ammo, etc they will be brought up to A5/A6 standards.
    The tank may be second hand but my guess is that SAF would buy the A4s to allow Singaporeans and our neighbours get used to we having MBTs...

    Then a few years later then buy super solid kind... Maybe merkava...

    Same case as our submarines... Buy second hand 1st, use for awhile, last I heard sourcing for some real new generation sub now...

  8. #208
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    Default Re: Finally, Singapore purchase new Main Battle Tank : Leopard 2A4

    Quote Originally Posted by arpinkor View Post
    Either just drive across the caus... ...er... bridge or ship them over on a barge or LST.
    Cau.... cannot take the weight... It is not one tank going over leh...

    Ship over barge, sitting ducks leh... We don't have enough LSTs to be utilise just for the A4s...

    Wonder what the SAF planners have up their sleeves...

  9. #209

    Default Re: Finally, Singapore purchase new Main Battle Tank : Leopard 2A4

    Quote Originally Posted by Ally View Post
    I rem reading from Jane's a long time back, the Abrams wears British armour, mounts a German gun and has fire control that's French/Italian/or-something? So the only thing Yank in the tank is the engine..??

    Also from Jane's past issues, the "safety" distance of the 120mm gun was rated about 20km..
    That's okay if your shooting range and butt is in a wasteland but HERE..??
    20 clicks is like, is like Hougang to Clementi right?
    In time of battle, our tank should not be engaging enemy tanks here. It too late as enemy is in our soil. It would be deployed forward for defense.

    Just my 2 cents

  10. #210
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    Default Re: Finally, Singapore purchase new Main Battle Tank : Leopard 2A4

    Quote Originally Posted by Wowee View Post
    The tank may be second hand but my guess is that SAF would buy the A4s to allow Singaporeans and our neighbours get used to we having MBTs...

    Then a few years later then buy super solid kind... Maybe merkava...

    Same case as our submarines... Buy second hand 1st, use for awhile, last I heard sourcing for some real new generation sub now...
    these are not things you buy to play with for a while. the hulls will be here for good, but the upgrades will basically be up to our imagination.

    as for the subs, the replacements have already been purchased, second hand swedish but an "upgrade" package is included in the purchase. basically the upgrade is so good that even the US Navy has to rent one from the swedish to figure out the tactics to deal with it.

  11. #211
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    Default Re: Finally, Singapore purchase new Main Battle Tank : Leopard 2A4

    Quote Originally Posted by Wowee View Post
    Cau.... cannot take the weight... It is not one tank going over leh...

    Ship over barge, sitting ducks leh... We don't have enough LSTs to be utilise just for the A4s...

    Wonder what the SAF planners have up their sleeves...

    erm… have you serve your NS? or you are not even entitled to serve? Its not appropriate to discuss tactics as these are methods and not facts. Facts can be published and in public domain, but tactics are any one's guess so I think we shouldn't delve into it.

    however, do you know the "cau..." is solid ground?

  12. #212
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    Default Re: Finally, Singapore purchase new Main Battle Tank : Leopard 2A4

    Quote Originally Posted by hwchoy View Post
    erm… have you serve your NS? or you are not even entitled to serve? Its not appropriate to discuss tactics as these are methods and not facts. Facts can be published and in public domain, but tactics are any one's guess so I think we shouldn't delve into it.

    however, do you know the "cau..." is solid ground?
    Yes! I have served!!!!!!

    Tatics have been discussed and written in so many books... Ever read the book Defending Singapore? Can't remember the writer's name but he did wrote about what tatics we would likely be using... Don't see him being charged in court for OSA...

    Why can't we discussed tatics?

  13. #213
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    Default Re: Finally, Singapore purchase new Main Battle Tank : Leopard 2A4

    well it is my opinion that it is inappropriate, because as members of the SAF we all have insider knowledge of the tactics. of course ultimately the site owner decides whether we are going out of bounds, I merely suggest we don't have to make the mods make a decision.

    Tim Huxley, on the other hand, is a military historian and researcher, and is not privvy first hand to our tactics. Since you have read the book, you should know that what he presents is merely conjecture, based on sound military logic no doubt, but still not a statement of how the SAF WILL fight.

    on the other hand, you should have SOME idea how we will forward deploy our armour assets, since you have served. I'm sorry I thought you're a pre-NS teenager from the way you posed the questions.
    Last edited by hwchoy; 13th December 2006 at 11:30 AM.

  14. #214
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    Default Re: Finally, Singapore purchase new Main Battle Tank : Leopard 2A4

    Well..

    let's just keep the discussion to the topic on hand and not discuss any possible tactics or other sensitive information. After-all, you will never know who might be reading these stuff.

    55 tons, can our normal roads take such weights? Something to ponder about.
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    Default Re: Finally, Singapore purchase new Main Battle Tank : Leopard 2A4

    Quote Originally Posted by hwchoy View Post
    well it is my opinion that it is inappropriate, because as members of the SAF we all have insider knowledge of the tactics. of course ultimately the site owner decides whether we are going out of bounds, I merely suggest we don't have to make the mods make a decision.

    Tim Huxley, on the other hand, is a military historian and researcher, and is not privvy first hand to our tactics. Since you have read the book, you should know that what he presents is merely conjecture, based on sound military logic no doubt, but still not a statement of how the SAF WILL fight.

    on the other hand, you should have SOME idea how we will forward deploy our armour assets, since you have served. I'm sorry I thought you're a pre-NS teenager from the way you posed the questions.
    No problem...

    Those who have a real good idea would not have said anything or may not have participated in this discussion... They know they can't say anything...

    Just as I would not have participatd in any discussions that involve what I know intimately...

    It is those of us who no idea that we started guessing and discussing... Everything we have raised (tactics) here would have been thought through by anyone who want to attack us or defend against us... What harm is there?

    SAF would have known that such info cannot be kept in the dark, just as our forward strategy, centurions etc are official secrets but... well... you know... I know... Everybody knows...

    It is the real secrets that only the top guys know are crucial...

    Just my penny thoughts

  16. #216
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    Default Re: Finally, Singapore purchase new Main Battle Tank : Leopard 2A4

    remember how the Germans wacked the Allies with their Tigers and Panthers... ? nothing can stop them.. they had such good firing range, always can shoot from far far..

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    Default Re: Finally, Singapore purchase new Main Battle Tank : Leopard 2A4

    Quote Originally Posted by raincool2005 View Post
    remember how the Germans wacked the Allies with their Tigers and Panthers... ? nothing can stop them.. they had such good firing range, always can shoot from far far..
    I believe it is not just the equipment... The German's superior training and strategy combine with surprise really caught the Allies with their pants down...

  18. #218

    Default Re: Finally, Singapore purchase new Main Battle Tank : Leopard 2A4

    Quote Originally Posted by Wowee View Post
    Cau.... cannot take the weight... It is not one tank going over leh...

    Ship over barge, sitting ducks leh... We don't have enough LSTs to be utilise just for the A4s...

    Wonder what the SAF planners have up their sleeves...
    According to information available on the websites, these tanks can "swim" in water for a limited distance of course.

  19. #219

    Default Re: Finally, Singapore purchase new Main Battle Tank : Leopard 2A4

    Quote Originally Posted by zac08 View Post
    Well..

    let's just keep the discussion to the topic on hand and not discuss any possible tactics or other sensitive information. After-all, you will never know who might be reading these stuff.

    55 tons, can our normal roads take such weights? Something to ponder about.

    I agree.. its a very fine line between secrets and public domain information.

    Just to be on the safe side, lets just keep the discussion to what's available on the internet.

  20. #220
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    Default Re: Finally, Singapore purchase new Main Battle Tank : Leopard 2A4

    Quote Originally Posted by raincool2005 View Post
    remember how the Germans wacked the Allies with their Tigers and Panthers... ? nothing can stop them.. they had such good firing range, always can shoot from far far..
    Yes, the Allied Sherman tanks literally burned after one shot from a Tiger, Panther or Jagdpanther. The Allies were also not as disciplined or well trained. But during Normandy, the Allies had a lot of matériel while the Germans had lost a lot of their resources in Russia. Worst, the Luftwaffe lost air supriority.

    Hence, a good tank can only get you so far. More importantly, all the 3 forces must work in unison. Plus numbers do count in the long run.

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