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Thread: YSS - Yishun pple pls stand up III

  1. #161
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    Default Re: YSS - Yishun pple pls stand up III

    Professional Photography in Singapore - The Next Few Years

    Here's a post by Kar-Wai Wesley taken off his blog. This entry can be found on http://wesjo.blogspot.com/2007/01/pr...singapore.html. A good read...

    ================================================

    After coming back in Dec, I've met up part-time and pro photographers, clients and friends. I have come to the conclusion in order to do well, professional photographers will have to go into wedding OR advertising photography. Let me explain, this is going to be long one about the long term. All figures are in Singapore dollars. (Note: Professional photographers are people that make >70% of their income from photography, the term imply anything about the standard of photography)

    What is "Doing Well"?

    This is very subjective, but we have to take some sort of standard, a fair gauge is comparing with your peers. From 25 to 32ish, it's highly likely a person with a full time job will be making $2.5k to $3.5k/month. Let's take the middle ground and work with $3k as a standard. With the 13 month pay + employer's contribution to CPF, monthly wage is actually ~$3.7k/month. Add in employer benefits, like dental, medical, etc and the figure will go up. This means that a full time photographer will have to make that amount monthly to sustain a decent lifestyle (as net profit after deducting expandable materials like prints, cd-rs, etc).

    From 33ish and up, at middle/higher management, salary will range from $3.5k/month to $5k. Taking $4.2k as the average salary, this works out to be ~$5.2k/month. At that age, it's likely you'll be married, likely have 1 or 2 kids, HDB apartment & car. All these are long term commitments.

    So, the young photographer will need to hit $3.7k/month and a few years after that, about $5.2k/month to do well. If that cannot met, it might be wise to stick to the current job and freelance (meaning part time photography). If you are making more than that as a full time photographer on your own, well done.

    Sectors & Overheads

    To simplify (I emphasize ok? it's really simplified), there are basically 3 sectors and they overlap slightly:
    1. Events and Wedding Day - Typical equipment setup is 2 d-slrs (both likely semi-pro bodies), 2 or 3 lenses, flash, cf cards, laptop or desktop, software, printer. All adds up to $10k to $16k for starting out. After that, it's another $4k to $6k a year to maintain and upgrade cameras, software, storage, etc. Typically, the event/wedding day photographer works from home so there's no rental. Let's take $13k as the startup cost, add transport (~$600 for bus+taxi), total is ~$600/month for the 1st 2 years. We'll assume that the photographer will do a modest markup for expendables like cd-r, paper, etc so the cost will those items won't be considered. After the 1st 2 years, the photographer will likely get a small office space for $400 to $600/month. So maximum running cost is $1020/month ($420/month maintenance + $600/month rental) after 2 years.

    Now, we go to the fees. As you know, the events market has been decimated by freelancers (part time photographers) and the going rate is approx ~$80/hr. This hasn't changed since 1990 when I started freelancing in my NS days, so the fee has *actually* gone down when inflation and cost of living is calculated. For the long term, we add $1020/month (overheads) + $5200/month (do well salary), the photographer has to spend (1020+5200)/80hr x 2 factor (meetings + post processing + delivery + travel) = 155.5hrs to make $6220/month.

    The wedding day photographer typically shoots 4 to 6 weddings a month, and the fee is about $1300 to $2600/day for approx 16hrs/day. The rate is ~$120/hr for the middle fee. Works out 103hrs to make the same amount. Btw, rates for wedding day's probably the only fee that's gone up. In the early 90s, $600 to $900 was the norm.

    To summarize, it's 155.5hr/month for the events photographer and 103hr/month for the wedding photographer for $6220/month.

    2. Commercial - this covers product, food, interior, people photography for direct clients like, schools, businesses, magazines, etc. Commercial work also covers wedding studio photography. Typical equipment setup is 2 d-slrs (both likely semi-pro or pro bodies), 4 or 6 lenses, flash, cf cards, laptop and/or desktop, software, printer. Plus decent set of studio lights with softboxes, umbrellas, background paper, etc. All adds up to $30k to $40k to start out. After that, it's another $8k to $10k a year to maintain and upgrade cameras, software, storage, etc. Rental for a studio space large enough to shoot products and people is about $1700/month.

    For the 1st 2 years, the cost is $3500/month and after that, $2450/month. Please note that it's highly likely after the 1st 2 years, the photographer will get a company vehicle (eg. van) for about $600 to $1000/month)

    The fees - Commercial work usually pays from $1200 to $2400/day for a 8-9hour day, works out at $200/hr. Again, the fees haven't changed much from the 90s. For the long term, we add $2450/month + $800 (company vehicle) + $5200/month (do well salary), the photographer has to spend (2450+5200+800)/200hr x 2 factor = 84.5hr

    To summarize, it's 84.5hr/month for the commercial photographer. I didn't add in other costs like having a full time administrator or assistants but it's quite likely they will be needed after 2 years.

    3. Advertising - this covers product, food, interior, people, fashion photography for advertising agencies. Typical equipment setup is medium format digital back, bodies, 4 or 6 lenses, flash, cf cards, laptop and/or desktop, software, printer. Plus decent set of studio lights with softboxes, umbrellas, background paper, etc. All adds up to $70k to $90k to start out. After that, it's another $8k to $10k a year to maintain and upgrade cameras, software, storage, etc. Rental for a studio space large enough to shoot products and people is about $1700/month. Full time producer, admin, assistant will add up to $8k to $10k a month. Company vehicle is ~$800/month.

    The fees - The fees vary quite a bit. Advertising work can go for 20k to 40k/day. But meetings, production time, logistics, post production, processing will take up to 6 to 12 working days. Long term, we add $12250/month + $5200/month (do well salary), the photographer has to spend (12250+5200)/416hr = 41.9hr

    The x2 factor for processing, etc might be disputed. But it's in my experience that sometimes it actually take MORE time from start to an absolute-completed job.
    In summary, to make a salary of $5200/month it takes:
    155.5hr/month for events
    103hr/month wedding
    84.5hr/month for commercial
    41.9hr/month for advertising

    Note that commercial photography comes really close to wedding. Again, I must emphasize that some of the data is simplified so that we can get a comparison of the different sectors. Some photographers might do both wedding day and studio photography, some might do fashion and advertising, so in reality things are a bit more complicated. Commercial and weddings are treading the middle ground but the overheads for commercial is much higher than weddings, especially in the 1st 2 years.

    What do clients want?

    I will skip events and focus on wedding, commercial and advertising.
    1. Wedding Day - Most clients want a good record of their wedding day, it's personal and different couples want different things to be emphasized. Hence there will be a need for photographers who specialize in different styles and looks. Some clients will be willing to pay a good premium for great photography.

    2. Commercial - Most of the images will be used for advertising in the form of brochures, magazine, newspapers, bus ads for mostly local use. Most companies have tight marketing budgets and they will not be able to afford great photography. There are a handful that will pay for good photography because of branding, etc. But these are few. The stock industry is targeting these type of clients, more about that later.

    3. Advertising - A good percentage of the images shot will be used in high publicity. And some will be used outside Singapore. Agencies will include loading fees for the photographer. It's highly likely they will be looking for a specific style for the photography. They will pay a good premium for great photography.

    Stock Photography

    Stock images were good and expensive for a long time until the last 2 or 3 years when digital photography filled the market with good images. So the prices have dropped. That's the good news (for clients), the better news is that the prices will drop even further in the next 2 or 3 years as more and more images are royalty free instead of being rights managed as more and more images are hitting the market, it's economics 101. If we take a look at what the stock images are offering, most of them are good generic images, and they are targeted at the commercial client who can afford a few hundred bucks for a collection of 20 - 30 nice generic images. Even if the client needs only 1 image, it's still cheaper than getting a pro photographer to shoot if the image comes close enough to what they want. To the client who is not into branding or great images, these stock images are good enough. The commercial photographer will need to match the stock image price or lose the job.
    Eugene

  2. #162
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    Default Re: YSS - Yishun pple pls stand up III

    This is the second part which I cannot post in its entirety due to the character limit imposed on posts.

    ================================================== =============

    Conclusion
    I have done the math and the research. The wedding photographer has low overheads and a relatively high margin. The advertising photographer has high overheads and very high fees. But the commercial photographer has a high overhead to fee ratio. The fees are based on current rates but the market Singapore will make a turn for lower (or remain stagnant) fees for him in the next few years. The writing is on the wall. The commercial photographer has to change/adapt his business structure and client base soon or face the consequences.

    Wes
    Eugene

  3. #163

    Default Re: YSS - Yishun pple pls stand up III

    makes good sense.............thats why there r abt 80% full time & 20% freelance but its the end results that counts........,,,,

    and hubby, housework has been done if u r asking.....
    Last edited by vanda; 26th January 2007 at 10:32 AM.

  4. #164
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    Default Re: YSS - Yishun pple pls stand up III

    Quote Originally Posted by vanda View Post
    makes good sense.............thats why there r abt 80% full time & 20% freelance but its the end results that counts........,,,,

    and hubby, housework has been done if u r asking.....
    How in the world can you do your homework, when you are at your mom place the whole morning. Hahaha.

  5. #165
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    Default Re: YSS - Yishun pple pls stand up III

    Quote Originally Posted by eugeneceh View Post
    Professional Photography in Singapore - The Next Few Years

    Here's a post by Kar-Wai Wesley taken off his blog. This entry can be found on http://wesjo.blogspot.com/2007/01/pr...singapore.html. A good read...

    ================================================

    After coming back in Dec, I've met up part-time and pro photographers, clients and friends. I have come to the conclusion in order to do well, professional photographers will have to go into wedding OR advertising photography. Let me explain, this is going to be long one about the long term. All figures are in Singapore dollars. (Note: Professional photographers are people that make >70% of their income from photography, the term imply anything about the standard of photography)

    What is "Doing Well"?

    This is very subjective, but we have to take some sort of standard, a fair gauge is comparing with your peers. From 25 to 32ish, it's highly likely a person with a full time job will be making $2.5k to $3.5k/month. Let's take the middle ground and work with $3k as a standard. With the 13 month pay + employer's contribution to CPF, monthly wage is actually ~$3.7k/month. Add in employer benefits, like dental, medical, etc and the figure will go up. This means that a full time photographer will have to make that amount monthly to sustain a decent lifestyle (as net profit after deducting expandable materials like prints, cd-rs, etc).

    From 33ish and up, at middle/higher management, salary will range from $3.5k/month to $5k. Taking $4.2k as the average salary, this works out to be ~$5.2k/month. At that age, it's likely you'll be married, likely have 1 or 2 kids, HDB apartment & car. All these are long term commitments.

    So, the young photographer will need to hit $3.7k/month and a few years after that, about $5.2k/month to do well. If that cannot met, it might be wise to stick to the current job and freelance (meaning part time photography). If you are making more than that as a full time photographer on your own, well done.

    Sectors & Overheads

    To simplify (I emphasize ok? it's really simplified), there are basically 3 sectors and they overlap slightly:
    1. Events and Wedding Day - Typical equipment setup is 2 d-slrs (both likely semi-pro bodies), 2 or 3 lenses, flash, cf cards, laptop or desktop, software, printer. All adds up to $10k to $16k for starting out. After that, it's another $4k to $6k a year to maintain and upgrade cameras, software, storage, etc. Typically, the event/wedding day photographer works from home so there's no rental. Let's take $13k as the startup cost, add transport (~$600 for bus+taxi), total is ~$600/month for the 1st 2 years. We'll assume that the photographer will do a modest markup for expendables like cd-r, paper, etc so the cost will those items won't be considered. After the 1st 2 years, the photographer will likely get a small office space for $400 to $600/month. So maximum running cost is $1020/month ($420/month maintenance + $600/month rental) after 2 years.

    Now, we go to the fees. As you know, the events market has been decimated by freelancers (part time photographers) and the going rate is approx ~$80/hr. This hasn't changed since 1990 when I started freelancing in my NS days, so the fee has *actually* gone down when inflation and cost of living is calculated. For the long term, we add $1020/month (overheads) + $5200/month (do well salary), the photographer has to spend (1020+5200)/80hr x 2 factor (meetings + post processing + delivery + travel) = 155.5hrs to make $6220/month.

    The wedding day photographer typically shoots 4 to 6 weddings a month, and the fee is about $1300 to $2600/day for approx 16hrs/day. The rate is ~$120/hr for the middle fee. Works out 103hrs to make the same amount. Btw, rates for wedding day's probably the only fee that's gone up. In the early 90s, $600 to $900 was the norm.

    To summarize, it's 155.5hr/month for the events photographer and 103hr/month for the wedding photographer for $6220/month.

    2. Commercial - this covers product, food, interior, people photography for direct clients like, schools, businesses, magazines, etc. Commercial work also covers wedding studio photography. Typical equipment setup is 2 d-slrs (both likely semi-pro or pro bodies), 4 or 6 lenses, flash, cf cards, laptop and/or desktop, software, printer. Plus decent set of studio lights with softboxes, umbrellas, background paper, etc. All adds up to $30k to $40k to start out. After that, it's another $8k to $10k a year to maintain and upgrade cameras, software, storage, etc. Rental for a studio space large enough to shoot products and people is about $1700/month.

    For the 1st 2 years, the cost is $3500/month and after that, $2450/month. Please note that it's highly likely after the 1st 2 years, the photographer will get a company vehicle (eg. van) for about $600 to $1000/month)

    The fees - Commercial work usually pays from $1200 to $2400/day for a 8-9hour day, works out at $200/hr. Again, the fees haven't changed much from the 90s. For the long term, we add $2450/month + $800 (company vehicle) + $5200/month (do well salary), the photographer has to spend (2450+5200+800)/200hr x 2 factor = 84.5hr

    To summarize, it's 84.5hr/month for the commercial photographer. I didn't add in other costs like having a full time administrator or assistants but it's quite likely they will be needed after 2 years.

    3. Advertising - this covers product, food, interior, people, fashion photography for advertising agencies. Typical equipment setup is medium format digital back, bodies, 4 or 6 lenses, flash, cf cards, laptop and/or desktop, software, printer. Plus decent set of studio lights with softboxes, umbrellas, background paper, etc. All adds up to $70k to $90k to start out. After that, it's another $8k to $10k a year to maintain and upgrade cameras, software, storage, etc. Rental for a studio space large enough to shoot products and people is about $1700/month. Full time producer, admin, assistant will add up to $8k to $10k a month. Company vehicle is ~$800/month.

    The fees - The fees vary quite a bit. Advertising work can go for 20k to 40k/day. But meetings, production time, logistics, post production, processing will take up to 6 to 12 working days. Long term, we add $12250/month + $5200/month (do well salary), the photographer has to spend (12250+5200)/416hr = 41.9hr

    The x2 factor for processing, etc might be disputed. But it's in my experience that sometimes it actually take MORE time from start to an absolute-completed job.
    In summary, to make a salary of $5200/month it takes:
    155.5hr/month for events
    103hr/month wedding
    84.5hr/month for commercial
    41.9hr/month for advertising

    Note that commercial photography comes really close to wedding. Again, I must emphasize that some of the data is simplified so that we can get a comparison of the different sectors. Some photographers might do both wedding day and studio photography, some might do fashion and advertising, so in reality things are a bit more complicated. Commercial and weddings are treading the middle ground but the overheads for commercial is much higher than weddings, especially in the 1st 2 years.

    What do clients want?

    I will skip events and focus on wedding, commercial and advertising.
    1. Wedding Day - Most clients want a good record of their wedding day, it's personal and different couples want different things to be emphasized. Hence there will be a need for photographers who specialize in different styles and looks. Some clients will be willing to pay a good premium for great photography.

    2. Commercial - Most of the images will be used for advertising in the form of brochures, magazine, newspapers, bus ads for mostly local use. Most companies have tight marketing budgets and they will not be able to afford great photography. There are a handful that will pay for good photography because of branding, etc. But these are few. The stock industry is targeting these type of clients, more about that later.

    3. Advertising - A good percentage of the images shot will be used in high publicity. And some will be used outside Singapore. Agencies will include loading fees for the photographer. It's highly likely they will be looking for a specific style for the photography. They will pay a good premium for great photography.

    Stock Photography

    Stock images were good and expensive for a long time until the last 2 or 3 years when digital photography filled the market with good images. So the prices have dropped. That's the good news (for clients), the better news is that the prices will drop even further in the next 2 or 3 years as more and more images are royalty free instead of being rights managed as more and more images are hitting the market, it's economics 101. If we take a look at what the stock images are offering, most of them are good generic images, and they are targeted at the commercial client who can afford a few hundred bucks for a collection of 20 - 30 nice generic images. Even if the client needs only 1 image, it's still cheaper than getting a pro photographer to shoot if the image comes close enough to what they want. To the client who is not into branding or great images, these stock images are good enough. The commercial photographer will need to match the stock image price or lose the job.
    So what are we waitig for. money is everywhere...

  6. #166

    Default Re: YSS - Yishun pple pls stand up III

    eh guys bring ya web page sketches tonight ar !!

  7. #167
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    Default Re: YSS - Yishun pple pls stand up III

    Kopi session 26-01-2007
    10pm till late @ 848 KPT

    Map: http://streetdirectory.com/asia_trav...mode=1&level=5
    (Opposite ABC supermart at Blk 845)


    1. DT
    2. nicholas
    3. william
    4. NMSS_2
    5. Eugene
    6. Xin
    7. ray

  8. #168

    Default Re: YSS - Yishun pple pls stand up III

    opss.. rain rain got to miss if it doesnt stop soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by nicholas68 View Post
    Kopi session 26-01-2007
    10pm till late @ 848 KPT

    Map: http://streetdirectory.com/asia_trav...mode=1&level=5
    (Opposite ABC supermart at Blk 845)


    1. DT
    2. nicholas
    3. william
    4. NMSS_2
    5. Eugene
    6. Xin
    7. ray

  9. #169
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    Default Re: YSS - Yishun pple pls stand up III

    Asian Cup 2007 at National Stadium!

    "With the field as my playground and you as my audience"


    Corner kick


    butter fingers!!!!!!!!!


    More Here

  10. #170

    Default Re: YSS - Yishun pple pls stand up III

    wahhhhhhhhhhhhh how come the pic like that??? two keepers ??? ur PS skill wahhhhhhhh ...

    eh ppl, paiseh, i was away drinking with my friends, that's y never join u all on fri. ~

  11. #171
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    Default Re: YSS - Yishun pple pls stand up III

    Wow! Jim! Very nice..... !

    esp the butter fingers shot.
    Eugene

  12. #172
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    Default Re: YSS - Yishun pple pls stand up III

    Hahaha! Thanks for the kind comments. Thank goodness that i am not a Sleague fans, else that shot will sure make me awfully mad.

  13. #173
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    Default Re: YSS - Yishun pple pls stand up III

    Jimmy > there is final match between Thailand and singapore that is going to play that the National Stadium. Do you know when it is.

  14. #174
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    Default Re: YSS - Yishun pple pls stand up III

    cant remember liao. saw it in today's straitstime. booking for today and tomorrow only. get your ticket fast!!!!!

  15. #175

    Default Re: YSS - Yishun pple pls stand up III

    Quote Originally Posted by nicholas68 View Post
    Jimmy > there is final match between Thailand and singapore that is going to play that the National Stadium. Do you know when it is.
    Channel 5 will be showing both legs of the ASEAN Football Championship Final between Singapore and Thailand "live".

    The first leg is in Singapore on this 31/1 Wednesday and the return match in Bangkok on Sunday 4/2.

    The "live" telecast starts at 7.50pm.

    The Lions will face Thailand in the first leg of the final here at the National Stadium on Wednesday 31 January. The second leg will be played in Bangkok on Sunday 4 February.

    Tickets to the first leg will go on sale on Monday 29 January and Tuesday 30 January. The ticket booths at all sales venues will be open from 12pm to 7pm on both days. Another announcement will be made shortly with regard to ticket sales on match day.

    PRICING:

    Grandstand: S$15

    Gallery Adult: S$7

    Gallery Children: S$2

    SALES VENUES:

    (ONLY Adult and Children Gallery Tickets)

    - National Stadium East Entrance

    - Choa Chu Kang Stadium

    - Tampines Stadium

    (ALL Ticket Categories)

    - Jalan Besar Stadium North and South Gate
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  16. #176
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    Default Re: YSS - Yishun pple pls stand up III

    Now... isn't Google wonderful? :P
    Eugene

  17. #177
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    Default Re: YSS - Yishun pple pls stand up III

    just happened about 1 hrs ago,

    ah kwa> good evening do you do personal photography
    Nicholas> yes, but it will cost you a bomb.
    ah kwa> no problem but I want 300 to 600 shoot.
    nicholas> no problem, so when can we meet up to discussion more in detail.
    ah kwa> we can meet at the hotel
    nicholas> which hotel
    ah kwa> hotel 88 at lavendar
    nicholas> Fxxk you ah kwa

  18. #178

    Default Re: YSS - Yishun pple pls stand up III

    Quote Originally Posted by nicholas68 View Post
    just happened about 1 hrs ago,

    ah kwa> good evening do you do personal photography
    Nicholas> yes, but it will cost you a bomb.
    ah kwa> no problem but I want 300 to 600 shoot.
    nicholas> no problem, so when can we meet up to discussion more in detail.
    ah kwa> we can meet at the hotel
    nicholas> which hotel
    ah kwa> hotel 88 at lavendar
    nicholas> Fxxk you ah kwa

    whhaaa.. i dont think he needs 300-600 shots.. maybe just 1 'telong telong' shot..

  19. #179

    Default Re: YSS - Yishun pple pls stand up III

    Quote Originally Posted by nicholas68 View Post
    just happened about 1 hrs ago,

    ah kwa> good evening do you do personal photography
    Nicholas> yes, but it will cost you a bomb.
    ah kwa> no problem but I want 300 to 600 shoot.
    nicholas> no problem, so when can we meet up to discussion more in detail.
    ah kwa> we can meet at the hotel
    nicholas> which hotel
    ah kwa> hotel 88 at lavendar
    nicholas> Fxxk you ah kwa
    hey !!! nv tell me early, i can join u mah !!!! we cum on his face !!!!

  20. #180

    Default Re: YSS - Yishun pple pls stand up III

    Quote Originally Posted by West_ray View Post
    hey !!! nv tell me early, i can join u mah !!!! we cum on his face !!!!
    ehhhhhhhhh anyone shooting Thaipusam ??? i'm going reaching the temple @ WEd midnight, and shoot till morning, or till my films end, whichever is earlier. so how? anyone going ???

    those who wanna join me, can call me @ 9XXX6XXX6 ... cya !!
    Last edited by West_ray; 30th January 2007 at 11:42 PM.

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