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Thread: How young must a model be to be shoot?

  1. #41
    vince123123
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    Default Re: How young must a model be to be shoot?

    Are you sure that fees/charges/money ALONE as a factor makes a difference to the answer?
    [quote=compro_1975;2889801]TFCD or TFP sure there is no charges aka fees so no law broken, since both parties knew abt this...

  2. #42

    Default Re: How young must a model be to be shoot?

    [quote=vince123123;2896521]Are you sure that fees/charges/money ALONE as a factor makes a difference to the answer?
    Quote Originally Posted by compro_1975 View Post
    TFCD or TFP sure there is no charges aka fees so no law broken, since both parties knew abt this...
    not too sure leh, but in sg's context money does play a big big role... they mayb other cases that i do not know,do advise, i newbie

  3. #43
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: How young must a model be to be shoot?

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    A lot of people are giving their "thinks" without any sources of authority to back up what they are saying. Most of these "thinks" are gathered from a hotpotch of other "thinks" exchanged on non-authoritative sources or kopitiam talks. They then transmit their "thinks" to other people who in turn, get reinforced that their own "thinks" are correct. Unfortunately, none of them have any authoritative sources to base their thinks on. I've yet to find someone who is able to show authoritative sources or references to say that model releases are required under Singapore laws, whether it is for publication, for use, for shooting, or anything at all. And I doubt there's any laws that say that anyone must be of any age to be shot as a model (unless someone can show them). I concur with Unseen.
    under employment act?
    as long their certified to be fit as a model??

    PART VIII

    EMPLOYMENT OF CHILDREN AND YOUNG PERSONS

    Interpretation of this Part
    67A. In this Part "child" means a person who has not completed his 15th year of age;"young person" means a person who has completed his 15th year of age but who has not completed his 16th year of age. Restriction on employment of children.
    68. (1) No person shall employ a child in an industrial or a non-industrial undertaking except as provided for in subsections (2) and (3).
    36/95.
    (2) A child may be employed in an industrial undertaking in which only members of the same family are employed.
    36/95.
    (3) A child who is 13 years of age or above may be employed in light work suited to his capacity in a non-industrial undertaking.
    36/95.
    (4) For the purposes of subsection (3), the certificate of a medical officer shall be conclusive upon the question of whether any work is suited to the capacity of any particular child.
    36/95.
    Restriction on employment of young persons.
    69. No young person shall be employed in any industrial undertaking which the Minister by notification in the Gazette declares to be an industrial undertaking in which no young person shall be employed.
    36/95.
    Conditions of employment.
    70. The Minister may by regulations made under this Act prescribe the conditions upon which a child or young person may be employed in any industrial or non-industrial undertaking. Minimum rates of salary may be prescribed.
    71. (1) If it is shown to the satisfaction of the Minister, upon the application of the Commissioner and after such inquiry as the Minister may think fit to direct, that the salaries of children or young persons, or both, employed in any industry or for any particular work or in any area are insufficient, having regard to the nature of the work and the conditions of employment, it shall be lawful for the Minister to prescribe, by order to be published in the Gazette, minimum rates of salary to be paid to children or young persons or both in that industry, type of employment or area. (2) Any person contravening any such order shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $1,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both, and for a second or subsequent offence to a fine not exceeding $2,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or to both. Approved employment.
    72. (1) Sections 68 and 69 shall not apply (a) to the employment of children and young persons (i) in work approved and supervised by the Ministry of Education or the Institute of Technical Education, Singapore; and(ii) carried on in any technical, vocational or industrial training school or institute; and(b) to the employment of young persons under any apprenticeship programme approved and supervised by the Institute of Technical Education, Singapore.
    36/95.
    (2) For the purposes of this section, the Institute of Technical Education, Singapore means the Institute of Technical Education, Singapore established under the Institute of Technical Education Act.
    36/95.
    Cap. 141A.
    Regulations regulating employment.
    73. The Minister may make regulations for regulating the employment of children in any occupation and no child or young person shall be employed as a workman under any circumstances or under any conditions which may be prohibited by the Minister from time to time by regulations made under this Act. Offence.
    74. Any person who employs a child or young person in contravention of the provisions of this Part or any of the regulations made thereunder and any parent or guardian who knowingly or negligently suffers or permits such employment shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $2,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or to both except in the case where a child or young person suffers serious injury or death resulting from any breach of the provisions of this Part or any regulations made thereunder the offender shall be punished with a fine of $2,000 and shall also be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years. Power of Juvenile Court in respect of children or young persons requiring care or protection.
    75. A child or young person in respect of whom any of the offences mentioned in this Part has been committed may be brought before a Juvenile Court and the Court, if satisfied that the child or young person requires care or protection, may exercise with respect to that child or young person all or any of the powers conferred by section 48 of the Children and Young Persons Act.
    Cap. 38.
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  4. #44

    Default Re: How young must a model be to be shoot?

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    under employment act?
    as long their certified to be fit as a model??


    Cap. 38.
    wow , u lawyer/judge/law enforcer?

  5. #45
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: How young must a model be to be shoot?

    Quote Originally Posted by compro_1975 View Post
    wow , u lawyer/judge/law enforcer?

    I'm just a photographer.

    just use some common sense, and some fingers walking, plus some cut and paste works.


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    Last edited by catchlights; 8th March 2007 at 10:38 AM.
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  6. #46

    Default Re: How young must a model be to be shoot?

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    I'm just a photographer.

    just use some common sense, and some fingers walking, plus some cut and paste works.


    .
    internet can find the law book of sg?

  7. #47
    vince123123
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    Default Re: How young must a model be to be shoot?

    This is purely my own opinion but feel free to correct if anyone has contradicting references.

    I don't think that a model hired by a photographer for a shoot would fall under the purview of the Employment Act. The Employment Act only applies to a rather select segment of the actual working population in Singapore (e.g. excludes managers, executives, seamen, government civil servants etc etc).

    First up, as background, the Employment Act defines people who fall under it as "employees":

    Interpretation.
    2. In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires "contract of service" means any agreement, whether in writing or oral, express or implied, whereby one person agrees to employ another as an employee and that other agrees to serve his employer as an employee and includes an apprenticeship contract or agreement;

    "employee" means a person who has entered into or works under a contract of service with an employer and includes a workman and any officer or employee of the Government included in a category, class or description of such officers or employees declared by the President to be employees for the purposes of this Act or any Part or section thereof; but does not include any seaman, domestic worker, or any person employed in a managerial, executive or confidential position or any person belonging to any other class of persons whom the Minister may, from time to time by notification in the Gazette, declare not to be employees for the purposes of this Act;

    The important thing is to decide what is an "employee" and to distinguish a contract of employment from a contract with an "independent contractor" (one who is hired to do specific services), ie not all workers are employees.

    There are many legal tests to determine which is which, and it would take an extremely boring long session to state each and every test or factor to be considered. A good general test which was approved in Singapore is this:

    "Is the preson who has engaged himself to perform these services performing them as a person in business on his own account? If the answer to that question is 'yes', then that contract is a contract for service (ie independent contractor - comment mine). If the answer is 'no', then the contract is of services (ie employee - comment mine)."

    That said, there are other factors to be considered. However, in this case, I don't think that it is so complicated as to warrant discussions on the other factors. THe way I see it, it is more likely that the model will be treated as an independent contractor and not an employee.

    Hence, the provision you have stated on the age of young persons to be employed, may not be applicable in this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    under employment act?
    as long their certified to be fit as a model??

    Cap. 38.



  8. #48

    Default Re: How young must a model be to be shoot?

    1. Is a simple TFCD considered employment? I doubt so. It is more like the model is contracted by the photographer for services rendered.

    2. Is there a need for "model release forms" or "talent release forms" for private works in the view of the law? If so, get ready piles of such forms. That is because every single person you photograph have to sign the forms off.
    Last edited by mervlam; 8th March 2007 at 12:19 PM.

  9. #49

    Default Re: How young must a model be to be shoot?

    Quote Originally Posted by compro_1975 View Post
    internet can find the law book of sg?
    wipe the gum off your eyes and look here -----> http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/

    excellent resource here too -----> http://www.singaporelaw.sg/
    Last edited by mervlam; 8th March 2007 at 12:32 PM.

  10. #50
    vince123123
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    Default Re: How young must a model be to be shoot?

    My view?

    1. Doubt so - see above.

    2. Doubt so.
    Quote Originally Posted by mervlam View Post
    1. Is a simple TFCD considered employment? I doubt so. It is more like the model is contracted by the photographer for services rendered.</p>
    2. Is there a need for &quot;model release forms&quot; or &quot;talent release forms&quot; for private works in the view of the law?
    Last edited by vince123123; 8th March 2007 at 12:27 PM.

  11. #51
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: How young must a model be to be shoot?

    My view is..

    if a photographer HIRE a model for shoot, it should fall under Employment Act, regardless of age.

    if a photographer wish to publish / sell his works of the model, it is the correct practice to ask model to sign a model release form, regardless the model is being paid or TFCD for the work created.

    This does not need to understand all the laws of Singapore to do these, simple common sense will do, however, this simple common sense only be able to practice on a normal person with the right mind.
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  12. #52
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: How young must a model be to be shoot?

    Some lunch time reading for you guys.



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  13. #53

    Default Re: How young must a model be to be shoot?

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    Some lunch time reading for you guys.



    .
    ok, u are right.... any person hired under contract by a photographer is considered an employee of the photographer.

    Section 1 states
    "contract of service" means any agreement, whether in writing or oral, express or implied, whereby one person agrees to employ another as an employee and that other agrees to serve his employer as an employee and includes an apprenticeship contract or agreement;

    "employee" means a person who has entered into or works under a contract of service with an employer and includes a workman and any officer or employee of the Government included in a category, class or description of such officers or employees declared by the President to be employees for the purposes of this Act or any Part or section thereof; but does not include any seaman, domestic worker, or any person employed in a managerial, executive or confidential position or any person belonging to any other class of persons whom the Minister may, from time to time by notification in the Gazette, declare not to be employees for the purposes of this Act;
    However, Section 12 states
    Contractual age.
    12. (1) Notwithstanding anything in any other written law, a person below the age of 21 years shall, subject to the provisions of this Act, be competent to enter into a contract of service. (2) No contract of service as an employee shall be enforceable against a person below the age of 21 years and no damages or indemnity shall be recoverable from that person in respect of the contract of service unless it is for his benefit.
    Does that cast a restriction on age?

  14. #54
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    Default Re: How young must a model be to be shoot?

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    My view is..

    if a photographer HIRE a model for shoot, it should fall under Employment Act, regardless of age.

    if a photographer wish to publish / sell his works of the model, it is the correct practice to ask model to sign a model release form, regardless the model is being paid or TFCD for the work created.

    This does not need to understand all the laws of Singapore to do these, simple common sense will do, however, this simple common sense only be able to practice on a normal person with the right mind.
    I agreed and this is what I do as well as is the normal industry practise.

    In the absent of a clear cut law or a test case it is better to follow the normal industry practise.
    Last edited by yqt; 8th March 2007 at 01:22 PM.

  15. #55
    vince123123
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    Default Re: How young must a model be to be shoot?

    Don't just look at the word "contract". There is a distinction between a contract of services (also known as employment) and a contract for services (which is also known as indepedent contractor, or non-employee).Take a look again at my long post above distinguishing the two.
    Quote Originally Posted by mervlam View Post
    ok, u are right.... any person hired under contract by a photographer is considered an employee of the photographer.

    Section 1 states However, Section 12 states

    Does that cast a restriction on age?

  16. #56
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    Default Re: How young must a model be to be shoot?

    Do we really need to get down into all the fine prints and all this legal jagon? Who amounst us can really understand all the legal jagon and dare to state that this is the legal truth, right here in black and white?
    To understand and to find out is good but let's not get too much into the fine prints. I don't think we're in a position to do that and I don't think anyone is willing to stick his/her neck out to make a legal stand. If anyone is interested or want to play really safe, go see a lawyer.

    If you want to engage a model to do a shoot with you, TFCD or paid, make sure you set out the terms in a release up front. So long as it have been agreeded upon before the shoot and the release signed, whatever crops up later will have to refer back to the agreedment/release form. If it's not stated, than another agreedment have to be reached and signed. You want to cover your backsi*e, than do your homework.

    Withregards to age, to play safe, so long as the model is under the age of 18, I'll usually deal with the parents and they sign the model release. Better still, go through an agency, anything wrong, the agency will have to do their job and step in, model not happy, tell her/him to see the agency but make sure your usage is according to the agreedment with the agency. That's what the modelling agency is paid to do.

  17. #57
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: How young must a model be to be shoot?

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Don't just look at the word "contract". There is a distinction between a contract of services (also known as employment) and a contract for services (which is also known as indepedent contractor, or non-employee).Take a look again at my long post above distinguishing the two.
    Great!
    now you give me an idea of shooting young models wearing bikini with yellow boots!

    in case of any models is reading this thread, if you are interested to have a TFCD with a professional photographer with the above theme, "bikini with yellow boots", can email me for discussions.


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  18. #58

    Smile Re: How young must a model be to be shoot?

    clear distinction between a contract for service and a contract of service.

    Quote Originally Posted by mervlam View Post
    ok, u are right.... any person hired under contract by a photographer is considered an employee of the photographer.

    Section 1 states However, Section 12 states

    Does that cast a restriction on age?

  19. #59
    vince123123
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    Default Re: How young must a model be to be shoot?

    Lol like that also can :P
    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    Great!
    now you give me an idea of shooting young models wearing bikini with yellow boots!

    in case of any models is reading this thread, if you are interested to have a TFCD with a professional photographer with the above theme, &quot;bikini with yellow boots&quot;, can email me for discussions.


    .

  20. #60
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    Default Re: How young must a model be to be shoot?

    Quote Originally Posted by mervlam View Post
    ok, u are right.... any person hired under contract by a photographer is considered an employee of the photographer.
    I think you've gravely mistaken something.

    if you hire a model, you are paying her for her services. This is a "Contract FOR Service".
    if you own a modelling agency and the model is contracted to be under you, that is a "Contract OF Service".

    Let's draw a parallel.. To a guy/layman anal sex and normal sex may be similar. To the court of law, one is a criminal offence while the other depends on situation.



    Scorn as you might, as far as I know, model release are useless if you actually use photos for other purposes than intended. Want to sell TFCD photos where the model knew it as a TFCD session? Your model release might be useless if the model can show that she never knew you intended to sell the photos etc.

    -.-" you can don't believe it if you don't want to, but let's just say that THE powerful publishing entity, not scared even of NKF lawyers, choose to settle out of court when a model claimed her photo was used as advertisement at bus stops instead of just the spread she did for.

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