View Poll Results: Who is Qualified Enough?

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  • Been in CS for a long time with many posts

    1 1.27%
  • People who are good photographers themselves

    18 22.78%
  • Does not need to be a good photographer, but has a keen eye for detail

    15 18.99%
  • Does not need to be a good photographer, but has a keen eye for detail and friendly commenting

    18 22.78%
  • Does not need to be a good photographer, but has a keen eye for detail and very direct in commenting

    27 34.18%
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Thread: Who is qualified enough to give critic

  1. #81
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    Default Re: Who is qualified enough to give critic

    When I first read the poll, I could not decide which shd be the correct response cause everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Since I do wedding, the harshest critics are actually my customers and they have different tastes. Thus it is subjective.

    The poll in my opinion should be who shd post pics for criticisms
    1. People who wants only nice comments
    2. People who do not mind harsh criticisms

    If a person post pics for critique, they must be able to stand harsh criticisms or else, they shd not post cause the internet is a open system for everyone to voice their opinion.

  2. #82
    Senior Member The_Cheat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who is qualified enough to give critic

    Quote Originally Posted by Witness View Post
    though i have to agree with student that we cannot impose our views of art or aesthetics on others, i believe that in order for photography to "work", there has to be a certain amount of mass appeal in it.. it doesnt exactly mean if a photo should be technically correct or wrong, but the target audience should like it at the very least...
    And you are still planning to do photojournalism? What if you capture something that audience do not want to see, but are the actual happenings? Are you saying that photography don't "work" then?

    Did Mozart write his works with the target audience in mind? Was his works even well-received when they were debut? So, are you saying that Mozart's music don't "work" too?

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Who is qualified enough to give critic

    Quote Originally Posted by CreaXion View Post
    If a person post pics for critique, they must be able to stand harsh criticisms or else, they shd not post cause the internet is a open system for everyone to voice their opinion.
    totally agree.

    but, the funny thing is that, very often, it's not the critique seeker who cannot stand harsh critiques, but the onlookers around the critique seeker.

  4. #84

    Default Re: Who is qualified enough to give critic

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cheat View Post
    And you are still planning to do photojournalism? What if you capture something that audience do not want to see, but are the actual happenings? Are you saying that photography don't "work" then?

    Did Mozart write his works with the target audience in mind? Was his works even well-received when they were debut? So, are you saying that Mozart's music don't "work" too?
    well....i wasnt really thinking about photoj when i posted that man....more towards "planned" shoots...

  5. #85
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    Default Re: Who is qualified enough to give critic

    Quote Originally Posted by student View Post
    Simple.

    Because the critic wanted to be called a critic.
    critic wannabes want to be called critics
    pro wannabes want to be called pros
    so we call them critics and pros

    have we lost anything here?



    Quote Originally Posted by student View Post
    Just type in "Giving a critique" in google and see what others say.
    fortunately i can learn from my tutors and mentors about what critique is about instead of having to go searching on the internet.

  6. #86

    Default Re: Who is qualified enough to give critic

    Initially when i posted my images. i was badly seeking critiques and opinions on what i shoot with the hope that my images will be accepted by the masses rather then seeking real critiques. And when people come in and give me wat sounded like non acceptance of my images, i tend to get very defensive and will try to "fight back".

    Perhaps this is the mentality of alot of ppl who post "in search of critiques" are really looking for. To make themselves feel good rather then to really improve.

  7. #87
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    Default Re: Who is qualified enough to give critic

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    and what's the opposite of the Functional approach?

    a person's being is defined by his/her desires, self and society. what new things can he/she create that is not based on what he/she already knows?
    Huh? That's like asking what's the opposite of the color red? Hello? Can you think laterally? There is no opposite of Functional Approach. Not everything is bipolar you know...

    What I'm highlighting is that you don't always need the old rules you used in solving the problem in order to come up with new rules. And sometimes being too focused on the old rules takes your attention away from new approaches, new ideas, things that will revolutionize the way you achieve outcomes, as opposed to merely evolutionary. Which is precisely the point of discussion, that by defying the rules at times will allow you to open your eyes and see what else is there, rather than plainly what is before you.

  8. #88
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    Default Re: Who is qualified enough to give critic

    Quote Originally Posted by imaginary_number View Post
    Huh? That's like asking what's the opposite of the color red? Hello? Can you think laterally? There is no opposite of Functional Approach. Not everything is bipolar you know...

    What I'm highlighting is that you don't always need the old rules you used in solving the problem in order to come up with new rules. And sometimes being too focused on the old rules takes your attention away from new approaches, new ideas, things that will revolutionize the way you achieve outcomes, as opposed to merely evolutionary. Which is precisely the point of discussion, that by defying the rules at times will allow you to open your eyes and see what else is there, rather than plainly what is before you.
    don't you see?

    the act of dismissing an old rule itself is using the old rule as a basis.

    the possibilities arises from understanding why the old rule is not to be used/followed.

    add: that was a trick question btw. exactly because nothing exist exclusively in dialectic that there can never be a new creation based entirely on nothing known before.
    Last edited by eikin; 2nd December 2006 at 12:24 AM.

  9. #89

    Default Re: Who is qualified enough to give critic

    Quote Originally Posted by imaginary_number View Post
    Huh? That's like asking what's the opposite of the color red? Hello? Can you think laterally? There is no opposite of Functional Approach. Not everything is bipolar you know...

    What I'm highlighting is that you don't always need the old rules you used in solving the problem in order to come up with new rules. And sometimes being too focused on the old rules takes your attention away from new approaches, new ideas, things that will revolutionize the way you achieve outcomes, as opposed to merely evolutionary. Which is precisely the point of discussion, that by defying the rules at times will allow you to open your eyes and see what else is there, rather than plainly what is before you.
    If we didn't know the old rules well enough. how would we be breaking the ole rules to see whats new? Isn't it kind of like a step by step thing so that you dun make history repeat itself while trying to find sth new?

  10. #90

    Default Re: Who is qualified enough to give critic

    Quote Originally Posted by Wowee View Post
    I think DP has an eye for details and he definitely knows what he is saying... So I would take his words more seriuosly although he may slam quite hard... Ouch...

    I would not take anybody's comments personally even if it seem harsh... I would rather receive a harsh but true comment which would help me improve. Of course my personal attitude towards recieving critique must be positive... If not whatever critique given is useless...

    My thoughts...
    a harsh critic and total insult is a different thing altogether!!

    while it's always useful to have critics around to make oneself improve, what could insult do? Make you improve?

    My earlier post did state that important critiques are always welcomed, harsh insults isn't.

    I've just highlighted how one "critic" gives his load, together with the insults bundled - and that shouldn't be the case at all!

  11. #91
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    Default Re: Who is qualified enough to give critic

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    don't you see?

    the act of dismissing an old rule itself is using the old rule as a basis.

    the possibilities arises from understanding why the old rule is not to be used/followed.
    getting philosophical. But that's not the point of the discussion nor am I interested in playing with words. And it's not exactly true either.

    Let me put it in this context, two researchers, one starting with the functional approach, the other using neural networks, each not having knowledge of each other's chosen rules, can solve the problem differently. So while a functional approach may solve a problem, the neural network approach does so more effectively and efficiently.

    There can be a better approach without knowledge of the old rule.

    So the possibility doesn't "arise from understanding why the old rule is not to be used/followed", but due to the understandings of exploring another paradigm. So the creation of the new solution never used the old solution as a basis - these two solutions could have existed independently, with both researchers never knowing about each other's approach, but both solved the same problem, albeit with different levels of efficiencies and effectiveness.

    that there can never be a new creation based entirely on nothing known before.
    And of course I don't deny this - it's common sense. But the premise is that the old rule mentioned here is in the context of the set of existing rules used to solve the problem or achieve an outcome, not the entire set of rules in the world.
    Last edited by imaginary_number; 2nd December 2006 at 01:01 AM.

  12. #92

    Default Re: Who is qualified enough to give critic

    Quote Originally Posted by student View Post
    Ok, this is a topic which I have some thoughts on. So I will lay down my personal opinions on who is qualified to be a critic.

    First of all, who or what is a "critic". This itself has many variations in definitions, such as

    #1 One who engages in analysis and interpretation of works of art
    #2 One who expresses a reasoned/value judgement
    #3 One who finds faults or makes harsh and unfair judgements.

    For the purpose of this thread, I would think that the appropriate definition and its variations would be #1 and #2. I think any sensible person here would object to the kind of critics in definition #3.

    And I would add a clause that the purpose of a critic to analyse/interpret and give a value judgement would be to help the artist to improve what he wishes to improve.

    NOTE THAT THE PURPOSE OF A CRITIQUE IS NOT TO IMPOSE ONE'S (THE CRITIC'S OWN) ESTHETICS, BUT TO HELP THE OTHER ALONG HIS CHOSEN PATH.

    This is the reason why in critiques circles, the opening question is often "what are you trying to say or portray?". Although I personally hate this question, it does help one to analyse and give approrpiate comments.

    Note that this definition of a critic effectively excludes statements such as "I like it", " I do not like it", with their various variations in both gentlemanly and or bas***dly presentations. These are mere emotive responses to the image. They have their role. But they do not constitute "critiques"

    Now who is qualified to be a critic?

    Potentially - ANYBODY.

    However we must not be deluded to think that anybody can give a meaningful critique. Ideally, one should possess the attributes of keen and developed artistic sense, technical competence, clarity of thought, and command of language to put the thoughts across. But I suspect that not many people possess these attributes in sufficient amount. I can accept that. But then I will also place into suspect the quality of the critiques.

    Would I like to receive critiques from a non-photographer? Potentially no. They may or may not be artistically inclined. They may be able to discuss with me the esthetics merits on my images. But they will not have the technical expertise to advice me on how to make my images better. To tell me my image sucks, but do not show me how to improve my image is at best sloopy. At worse, hypocrisy.

    But I do look to non-photographers for their emotive responses to my images.

    There are exceptions of course of nonphotographers who are great photography critics. One who comes to mind is John Szarkowski.

    Catchlights made some reference to giving critiques on food. He is right that I do not need to be a cook to appreciate which satay is good. However, I can only say that this satay is not to my taste, or that satay is to my taste. When I tell the cook that I do not like his satay, I am merely telling him how my tastebuds react to his satay. I do not give a value judgement, or advise him how to make his satay better. Some may feel that this constitute a "critique". I will not object vehemently to this. But I submit that this is a very low level "critique".

    Must the critic be a photographer? As mentioned above, not necessarily. There are those non-photographers who give great critiques. But the number of competent critics from practicing photographers far, far outnumber non-photographers. For very obvious reasons.

    Not all photographers make good critics. Just like not all good footballers make good coaches. In this subforum, one sees a lot of comments from "professionals" making their own values the standards by which others should follow. Example: the thread on "Yuki". They forgot, or they might not even know that some are not interested to make images for clients or profits. So such critiques are totally misdirected and irrelevant. Giving critiques to a fellow photographer who aspires to be a wedding photographer will be very different from giving critiques to a fellow photographer who wants to make 'art" images.

    So professional photographers may not be the best as critics, because they might have pigeoned themselves into a specific mindset over the years. But still, on the whole, I would value the opinions of photographers over nonphotographers.

    So who are qualified, by the criteria laid down above?

    I am certainly not. And I suspect that most are not. Does it mean that therefore we should not attempt to give critiques? Or course not!

    But I hope that we can look at ourselves in the mirror, and ask if we really possess keen artistic sense. If we possess a clear analytical mind. If we are competent to show how, by word or example. If we are able to communicate clearly our thoughts.

    And most importantly, if we really care.

    This, I think is the most important. Even if we do not possess keen artistic sense. If we do not possess keen analytical minds. If we do not possess competent know how. If we are not in command of language abilities. We can still give critiques.

    But we will know our place. The value of our critiques. We will be a lot less arrogant and dogmatic. And that qualifies us to give critiques right here in our beloved CS.

    this is 1 well written piece of essay! gd 1 there dude!
    i think it sums everything well enough.

  13. #93
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    Default Re: Who is qualified enough to give critic

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Lim View Post
    If we didn't know the old rules well enough. how would we be breaking the ole rules to see whats new? Isn't it kind of like a step by step thing so that you dun make history repeat itself while trying to find sth new?
    Why do you conclude that we must know and/or break old rules in order to create a new rule? There are many ways to solve a problem, each might be independent of the other. Can you not solve a problem more effectively with some newly discovered rules without knowing what are the other existing rules people are using currently?

    Of course, bear in mind that the existing rules refer to the set of known rules currently known to solve a problem. Not the entire set of rules in the world - that'll be like saying everything is built using something that is already in existence in the world. Obviously that's a tautology.

  14. #94

    Default Re: Who is qualified enough to give critic

    Quote Originally Posted by imaginary_number View Post
    Why do you conclude that we must know and/or break old rules in order to create a new rule? There are many ways to solve a problem, each might be independent of the other. Can you not solve a problem more effectively with some newly discovered rules without knowing what are the other existing rules people are using currently?

    Of course, bear in mind that the existing rules refer to the set of known rules currently known to solve a problem. Not the entire set of rules in the world - that'll be like saying everything is built using something that is already in existence in the world. Obviously that's a tautology.
    I'm not really concluding dude. I'm wondering if it makes sense. Cos new creations and findings are mostly based on things that have been done or founded before. If a particular solution has been used "traditionally" to solve a problem. A new finding to solve it would usually be termed as an improvement of the old finding isn't it? thus in order to find this new solution, don't you need to have a strong basis of the old ones? Am i making sense?

  15. #95
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    Default Re: Who is qualified enough to give critic

    To me, the best critic and the most qualified critic is the one who the photo is meant for.
    If the photo is meant to be a self satisfying shot, then the critiques of others wont matter.
    However, if the photo is meant for the public, then any Tom Dick or Harry, regardless of experience in the field can comment.
    Photography is art, art works are meant to be critiqued by whom the work is meant for.
    Its just a matter of whoose critique you choose to listen to.

  16. #96
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    Default Re: Who is qualified enough to give critic

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Lim View Post
    I'm not really concluding dude. I'm wondering if it makes sense. Cos new creations and findings are mostly based on things that have been done or founded before. If a particular solution has been used "traditionally" to solve a problem. A new finding to solve it would usually be termed as an improvement of the old finding isn't it? thus in order to find this new solution, don't you need to have a strong basis of the old ones? Am i making sense?
    I get what you're saying. It depends on what you're looking at.

    Say you're in the business of building air transport. You know all the details of the types of planes, materials, aerodynamics, etc. Your objective in your industry is to help ppl to get to various parts of the world. And because you're always seeking improvement, you're always looking at your existing processes, structure, staff, products, etc (or rules if that word seems appropriate) to achieve your objective, that is to help people get to various parts of the world as fast and as comfortable as possible.

    But what if one day, someone who knows nuts about planes, aerodynamics and whatnot invents teleportation? He (I believe it will be a he. ha!) will be able to achieve your objective better than you, wouldn't he?

    While the process and hence rules are important, it is the end result that matters more. So if your objective can be attained using a fundamentally different but better approach that does not entail what the existing set of rules used for that problem are, isn't that interesting?

  17. #97

    Default Re: Who is qualified enough to give critic

    a person who truly understands what art and photography is about is in the best position to give a critique.
    you can buy better gear but you can't buy a better eye

  18. #98

    Default Re: Who is qualified enough to give critic

    Quote Originally Posted by student View Post
    ....Now who is qualified to be a critic?

    Potentially - ANYBODY.

    Would I like to receive critiques from a non-photographer? Potentially no. They may or may not be artistically inclined. ..able to discuss esthetics merits on my images. .. To tell me my image sucks, but do not show me how to improve my image is at best sloopy. At worse, hypocrisy.
    can critic a not?

    what about those meticulous, stingy, non-photography, non-art inclined clients who always demand many things yet some photogs don't complain.

    Must the critic be a photographer? As mentioned above, not necessarily....
    Not all photographers make good critics...
    Does it mean that therefore we should not attempt to give critiques? Or course not!
    if we post images in a forum it will definitely invite comments and critics be it solicited or not. often most of people here solicits and welcome comments yet when you say something negative, poster will be enraged and ending up in word war. imo these are so immature and unprofessional.

    there is no rule on this board (is there? ) that restricts anyone from giving comments be it good or neg, otherwise don't speak up or dont post images and don't learn anything at all (from the pros ofcos).
    Last edited by manila gorila; 2nd December 2006 at 01:55 AM.

  19. #99

    Default Re: Who is qualified enough to give critic

    Quote Originally Posted by imaginary_number View Post
    I get what you're saying. It depends on what you're looking at.

    Say you're in the business of building air transport. You know all the details of the types of planes, materials, aerodynamics, etc. Your objective in your industry is to help ppl to get to various parts of the world. And because you're always seeking improvement, you're always looking at your existing processes, structure, staff, products, etc (or rules if that word seems appropriate) to achieve your objective, that is to help people get to various parts of the world as fast and as comfortable as possible.

    But what if one day, someone who knows nuts about planes, aerodynamics and whatnot invents teleportation? He (I believe it will be a he. ha!) will be able to achieve your objective better than you, wouldn't he?

    While the process and hence rules are important, it is the end result that matters more. So if your objective can be attained using a fundamentally different but better approach that does not entail what the existing set of rules used for that problem are, isn't that interesting?
    Wouldn't the person have based his idea on wanting to improve on the air transportation thus come up with ideas to try teleportation? Hmmmm unless u are saying it in the way that the idea of teleportation was based on nano technology and astro physics with the laws or relativity. But even so wouldn't ot still be base on old rules of another entirely different subject?

    In terms of Photography, there is no hard and fast rule i feel. But if a person is trying to seek and do sth new. Perhaps he/she may be mastering sth of the "old" before discovering the new?

  20. #100

    Default Re: Who is qualified enough to give critic

    Quote Originally Posted by zaren View Post
    a person who truly understands what art and photography is about is in the best position to give a critique.
    You're alr there bro. Can critic my apad? hee

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