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Thread: Two CPLs = Zoomable ND?

  1. #1
    vince123123
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    Default Two CPLs = Zoomable ND?

    An inspiration just hit me today.

    In the past, I used to play with linear polarizers - when you hold them at 90 degrees to each other, the light gets totally blocked (ie totally opaque). By adjusting them at varying angles to each other, you can get adjust to get a range of light transmissions.

    Would the same work for circular polarizers? I was thinking if that is possible, we could actually get a zoomable ND, from ND2 to ND8 to ND100 with no problems.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Two CPLs = Zoomable ND?

    There is a product called variable ND filter, which is use two CPL (or 1 CPL and 1 LPL IIRC). You can try using 2 CPL (or 1 CPL and 1 LPL IIRC), but your result is not as good as (consider bad) the variable ND filter.

    IIRC, the price of 1 variable ND filter is more expensive than few (at least 3 or 4) different ND filters.

    Regards,
    Arto.

  3. #3
    Senior Member azul123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two CPLs = Zoomable ND?

    When I did a search thru the web sometime back, some forumers in FredM or some other site, mentioned that the Variable ND can be achieved by using a LP and CPL stacked.

    ../azul123

  4. #4
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Two CPLs = Zoomable ND?

    The problem with using a Linear Polarizer as one of the components is that Autofocus cannot work with Linear Polarizers.

    Artosoft: how come you say that using two CPLs is worse than using the variable ND - I thought you said the variable ND is indeed using two CPLS?

  5. #5
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Two CPLs = Zoomable ND?


  6. #6
    Senior Member azul123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two CPLs = Zoomable ND?

    Yes, that's the one to get and it's pricy...

    ../azul123

  7. #7
    Senior Member azul123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two CPLs = Zoomable ND?

    Alternative... Hoya has the NDx400 or maybe cheaper option is to stack several ND8s together?

    But not turn variable.

    ../azul123

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    Default Re: Two CPLs = Zoomable ND?

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    The problem with using a Linear Polarizer as one of the components is that Autofocus cannot work with Linear Polarizers.

    Artosoft: how come you say that using two CPLs is worse than using the variable ND - I thought you said the variable ND is indeed using two CPLS?
    It is looks like variable ND use unusual Polarizer filter (whether one is Linear, one is Circular, or both is Circular polarizer filter). That's explain why it is so expensive. If you use 2 CPL (found in market), most probably you will get non linear ND filter (some part of ND filter is black than other part), or some changes in color ND filter. There is a lot of discussion I read before when I come to this idea too.

    It is more economical and better to use several ND filter than variable ND filter, IMHO.

    Regards,
    Arto.

  9. #9
    Moderator ortega's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two CPLs = Zoomable ND?

    i normally stack a CP and a ND

  10. #10
    Senior Member azul123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two CPLs = Zoomable ND?

    Quote Originally Posted by ortega
    i normally stack a CP and a ND
    Would the stack order be - Lens/CPL/ND or Lens/ND/CPL?

    ../azul123

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    Moderator ortega's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two CPLs = Zoomable ND?

    Quote Originally Posted by azul123 View Post
    Would the stack order be - Lens/CPL/ND or Lens/ND/CPL?

    ../azul123
    lens/cpl/nd

    mainly because i am using the corkin P system

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Two CPLs = Zoomable ND?

    For variable ND using polarizers, the first one (closest to subject) should be linear. The second one (closest to lens) can be linear or circular, depending on the camera. Most modern cameras would require the second polarizer to be circular in order to let the metering work correctly.

    If the first one is circular then the second one cannot achieve the variable ND effect, because the first CPL would produce "depolarized" light that will pass through the second one with the same transmission regardless of alignment.
    As complexity rises, precise statements lose meaning and meaningful statements lose precision.

  13. #13
    Senior Member azul123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two CPLs = Zoomable ND?

    Quote Originally Posted by roygoh
    For variable ND using polarizers, the first one (closest to subject) should be linear. The second one (closest to lens) can be linear or circular, depending on the camera. Most modern cameras would require the second polarizer to be circular in order to let the metering work correctly.

    If the first one is circular then the second one cannot achieve the variable ND effect, because the first CPL would produce "depolarized" light that will pass through the second one with the same transmission regardless of alignment.
    Thanks for your input Roy, saw Sammy888's and your postings on CPL/LP filters and they are indeed very technical and detailed.

    ../azul123

  14. #14

    Default Re: Two CPLs = Zoomable ND?

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    An inspiration just hit me today.

    In the past, I used to play with linear polarizers - when you hold them at 90 degrees to each other, the light gets totally blocked (ie totally opaque). By adjusting them at varying angles to each other, you can get adjust to get a range of light transmissions.

    Would the same work for circular polarizers? I was thinking if that is possible, we could actually get a zoomable ND, from ND2 to ND8 to ND100 with no problems.
    Unfortunately, it doesn't work with circular polarizers. Variable optical attenuators/ND actually use 2 linear polarizers and ideally, the cosine of the difference of the polarization angles gives the transmission coefficient.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Two CPLs = Zoomable ND?

    Quote Originally Posted by azul123 View Post
    When I did a search thru the web sometime back, some forumers in FredM or some other site, mentioned that the Variable ND can be achieved by using a LP and CPL stacked.

    ../azul123
    Lin pol and Cir pol stacked do not give as good an attenuation as 2 lin pol stacked. To some extent it can work but not very well.

  16. #16
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Two CPLs = Zoomable ND?

    I was wondering, the CPL converts the LP's polarised light into a type of light that can work with AF? Cos I do know that LP alone won't work with AF.

    Quote Originally Posted by roygoh View Post
    For variable ND using polarizers, the first one (closest to subject) should be linear. The second one (closest to lens) can be linear or circular, depending on the camera. Most modern cameras would require the second polarizer to be circular in order to let the metering work correctly.

    If the first one is circular then the second one cannot achieve the variable ND effect, because the first CPL would produce "depolarized" light that will pass through the second one with the same transmission regardless of alignment.
    Azul - could you drop a link to Roy and Sammy888's threads on CP/LP?

    Quote Originally Posted by azul123 View Post
    Thanks for your input Roy, saw Sammy888's and your postings on CPL/LP filters and they are indeed very technical and detailed.

    ../azul123

  17. #17
    Senior Member azul123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two CPLs = Zoomable ND?

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    I was wondering, the CPL converts the LP's polarised light into a type of light that can work with AF? Cos I do know that LP alone won't work with AF.



    Azul - could you drop a link to Roy and Sammy888's threads on CP/LP?
    Here it is as requested.

    http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthrea...near+Polarizer

    ../azul123

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    Default Re: Two CPLs = Zoomable ND?

    Quote Originally Posted by azul123 View Post
    Alternative... Hoya has the NDx400 or maybe cheaper option is to stack several ND8s together?

    But not turn variable.

    ../azul123
    Why? the ND400 is cheap.

  19. #19
    Senior Member azul123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two CPLs = Zoomable ND?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMC
    Why? the ND400 is cheap.
    Dunno how much, never seen one yet.

    ../azul123

  20. #20
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Two CPLs = Zoomable ND?

    Thanks Azul!

    Quote Originally Posted by azul123 View Post
    Here it is as requested.

    http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthrea...near+Polarizer

    ../azul123

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