D80 'kit'/ starter lens advice

[fWord]

Good day!

My Dad is in the market for a new DSLR (starting from scratch) and is weighing things up between the Nikon D80 and the Canon 400D before pushing the button. This is fairly urgent because of the family trip that we have coming up in mid November.

I've no experience with Nikon since I've used Canon since the beginning. It's a difficult decision at this time since there would be pros and cons of choosing either path, so we really need to carefully consider everything.

From what I understand the D80 sells together with the 18-135mm lens as a kit. It is also available as a body-only set. The biggest question is: how is the quality of the 18-135mm lens? Is the 18-135mm lens worth the extra cost? How does it fare optically and in terms of handling?

Should we spend more to get it as part of a kit, or should we get the body only and look for a 18-70mm lens second hand? How much does the latter lens usually sell for on the B&S, assuming I want a minty copy?

At one point I suggested that my Dad look at the Nikon D70s as well, or the Canon 350D since they are absolute steals at the moment, but he doesn't seem too keen on those. Guess he doesn't mind spending a little extra to get the camera of his dreams. Knowing him, he'll probably use it for years as well.

Thank you...hope to hear from you soon.

[lsisaxon]

Originally Posted by fWord Good day! My Dad is in the market for a new DSLR (starting from scratch) and is weighing things up between the Nikon D80 and the Canon 400D before pushing the button. This is fairly urgent because of the family trip that we have coming up in mid November. I've no experience with Nikon since I've used Canon since the beginning. It's a difficult decision at this time since there would be pros and cons of choosing either path, so we really need to carefully consider everything. From what I understand the D80 sells together with the 18-135mm lens as a kit. It is also available as a body-only set. The biggest question is: how is the quality of the 18-135mm lens? Is the 18-135mm lens worth the extra cost? How does it fare optically and in terms of handling? Should we spend more to get it as part of a kit, or should we get the body only and look for a 18-70mm lens second hand? How much does the latter lens usually sell for on the B&S, assuming I want a minty copy? At one point I suggested that my Dad look at the Nikon D70s as well, or the Canon 350D since they are absolute steals at the moment, but he doesn't seem too keen on those. Guess he doesn't mind spending a little extra to get the camera of his dreams. Knowing him, he'll probably use it for years as well. Thank you...hope to hear from you soon.

He should get the Canon, then you can share lenses with him.

The Nikon lens is good though.

[chanxj]

aiyo which one ur dad or u prefer is more important that what we say larhz

[fWord]

Originally Posted by lsisaxon He should get the Canon, then you can share lenses with him. The Nikon lens is good though.

Yup...good point. Suggested that to him but eventually decided it might not work out. I hardly see him these days since he is in Australia, and I'm...well...here serving in the army. Subsequently when I get out and start working I might actually return to Australia, but may end up working in the countryside which is hours away from his place.

AND the 28-105mm I plan to use as a walkabout might not suit him (not wide enough on a 400D). Doubt he'd want to use my tele lens either. So while sharing lenses is a good reason for him to choose Canon, I don't think it's going to follow through well.

[fWord]

Originally Posted by chanxj aiyo which one ur dad or u prefer is more important that what we say larhz

Aiyah. It's precisely because he also cannot decide that's why I must seek professional help from you guys. He told me that since young he's always wanted a Nikon, but couldn't afford it and hence went for Konica. So to a certain extent this is going to be a dream come true for him.

But by the looks of it he isn't going to buy something just based on brand alone. He asked me to advice, but I only know Canon, so I'd better find out more from Nikon users first so that I can give him a chance to look at the whole playing field when it comes to both these cameras.

If it's buying for myself, I could pick either and then feel okay even if I made a 'wrong' decision. Unfortunately I'm buying for my Dad.

[siaopika]

-.- bring him to the shop to test hold both the cameras himself lor....

[fWord]

Originally Posted by siaopika -.- bring him to the shop to test hold both the cameras himself lor....

Okay. Here it gets tricky. He's in Australia at the moment, not in Singapore. Plus, he's busy planning for our trip and getting things done in the house. I'll recommend this to him and see if he can find the time. However I've already told him that the 400D may be a little small for him. He's held my 350D before though, and didn't complain about it.

[lsisaxon]

Originally Posted by fWord Yup...good point. Suggested that to him but eventually decided it might not work out. I hardly see him these days since he is in Australia, and I'm...well...here serving in the army. Subsequently when I get out and start working I might actually return to Australia, but may end up working in the countryside which is hours away from his place. AND the 28-105mm I plan to use as a walkabout might not suit him (not wide enough on a 400D). Doubt he'd want to use my tele lens either. So while sharing lenses is a good reason for him to choose Canon, I don't think it's going to follow through well.

If he would like a single lens solution, it seems like Nikon has the better deal. What is his preference actually?

[fWord]

Originally Posted by lsisaxon If he would like a single lens solution, it seems like Nikon has the better deal. What is his preference actually?

Yes, that's true. On paper Nikon would seem to be a sensible choice. The kit lens is very much 'walkaround' and my Dad probably won't need to change it at all. It would serve all his shooting needs. My only concern is the quality of the lens. Although I've always marveled at lenses with a big zoom ratio I'm not fond of their performance...that's why I'm trying to get some opinions here as to whether its worth it or not.

At the moment I don't believe my Dad has a preference. I have a slight preference for the 400D partly because of the aggressive pricing but I shouldn't let that affect him. My reasoning is that if my Dad is unhappy with the kit lens on the 400D and eventually wants to upgrade, it will cost him a substantial amount anyway. In which case he could have gotten the D80 kit from the start and not need to worry about a lens. I'm beginning to suspect though, that my Dad is interested in doing photography but may not get awfully technical with things, and neither will he be a pixel peeper.

In the meantime I've already sent him the Equotes from Cathay Photo...I'll have a chat with him and see what he thinks.

[Scaglietti]

For walkabout shooting, the 18-135 kit lens is a very capable lens. I love it for general shooting.

[jasontaycs]

All the Nikon kit lenses are great! Doubt he would complain about it.

You might wanna consider Canon 5D since it's full frame so if you eventually go back and stay close by you can share lenses.

[fWord]

Scaglietti: Yes, that's true...the range from 27-200mm is hard to argue with, especially all in one lens. Not sure if it compares favourably to the Sigma or Tamron 18-200mm which are also all-in-one lenses. With this lens I think my Dad has pretty much everything covered, unless he wants to go to the zoo.

jasontaycs: Heard good things about the 18-70mm, but haven't been able to glean much about the new 18-135mm lens. Heheh...the Canon 5D is good, but probably too much for my Dad at this time. Actually when I suggested it to him he said something to the effect that he didn't mind, but was worried that my Mum wouldn't approve.

Still, I'm sure my Mum might have bought things in the past that my Dad didn't approve of either.

[jpcc]

If your dad is concern over build quality, Nikon D80 wins hands down.
If your dad likes to look at viewfinder to compose, or manual focus, D80 is also much better.

If your dad likes to compare price (a very common trait), Canon is better.
(but provided he is not buying L lens... well, if he is concerned over quality, both
makes have their marque lens)

If your dad is reliving old memories, Nikon does have an old enough history of pro Nikon
photographers. But the current crop of photojournalists (e.g. US open, World cup,
many sports events) are using Canon.....

Just note that the newer breed of DSLR is no longer metal body

[diediealsomustdive]

Originally Posted by jpcc If your dad is concern over build quality, Nikon D80 wins hands down. If your dad likes to look at viewfinder to compose, or manual focus, D80 is also much better. If your dad likes to compare price (a very common trait), Canon is better. (but provided he is not buying L lens... well, if he is concerned over quality, both makes have their marque lens) If your dad is reliving old memories, Nikon does have an old enough history of pro Nikon photographers. But the current crop of photojournalists (e.g. US open, World cup, many sports events) are using Canon..... Just note that the newer breed of DSLR is no longer metal body

Canon kit lenses have always had a reputation - junk some said.

Nikon lenses had always been more than decent, even the cheap lenses they made - the E series 75-150 is still one very highly regarded lens. I have a late version 43-86, very popular lens, and one that magazines said "even Nikon Executives would apologize for its lack of performance". But guess what, it gave more than decent performance (although I must admit it does not live up to the best, but it certainly never gave junk performance).

Even the current crop of plastic lenses - I recently "ditched" my 18-70 for the 18-55 for the lighter load on the shoulder - are quite good. No regrets (I have both lenses still, and I was more than pleasantly surprised when I first used my 18-70, and mind you, I was comparing it to primes like 28/2.8, 105/2.5).

So if you suggest going Canon, you must think about getting not the kit lens, but a "proper" lens, i.e. you can then compare price in a meaningful manner, apple-to-apple, and get performances that justify the pixel count. It is tragic to buy the best camera just to be let down by the lens.

Canon lenses focused lights years ahead of Nikon when the EOS mount was introduced, the trick was in the in-lens motor. Nikon lost the professionals then, and rumour has it that Nikon never regained them. But equally valid is that there is now little difference in Nikon vs Canon in AF speed.

In the manner of built quality, Canon had always been truthful - their cheap cameras are made cheaply and feel, er, rather "fitting" to the cost. Nikon, OTOH, gives better built quality overall. Having said that, the 18-135 is of plastic mount.

So all things considered, IMHO:

1) If there is a chance to share lenses - and since you use Canon, your dad should get Canon.
2) If he had always wanted Nikon, and the matter of sharing lenses is not really an option, get the Nikon. The kit lens will be more than decent for most users except critical users. Your description of your dad didn't fit him into the critical user range.
3) If the plastic mount thingy bothers you, get the 18-70.

You should be able to get some opinion on the 18-135 on Ken Rockwell reviews. I think he wasn't too hot on it.

And if your dad isn't going to change camera in a hurry, probably a better idea to get the D80 (or 400D) instead of the lower D70s.

My humble opinions only, and I admit to Nikon-bias (I was raised a Canon fan, used the AE-1 for a somewhat long 4 years, then went over to Minolta X-700 for a year plus, all friends' cameras. When the decisive moment came to put my hard cash down, I bought a Nikon FE-2. No regrets, well, some regrets when the Canon focused significantly faster back in the F-801 days. But glad that my 1965 Nikon lens will work with my 2004 D70, which allowed gradual transition to AF from manual and kept the old faithful 105/2.5 working till 2 years ago. Now dreaming of D200 to bring the old manual lenses back online).

My underwater rig is Canon (and Olympus).

[amts]

With regards to the kit lens, I would rather go one step up and get the 18-200VR or one step down and get the 18-70. The reason for me saying this is that I recently borrowed a friends Tamron 90mm SP. Some of my shots came out blur due to handshake. So for me, the 135mm would be a waste as I would have to use a tripod, etc to reduce my handshake. So in most cases, the longer zoom won't be fully utilised. Obviously, this is only an issue for flashless indoor photography. So it depends on your dad's shooting style.

[zac08]

Originally Posted by amts With regards to the kit lens, I would rather go one step up and get the 18-200VR or one step down and get the 18-70. The reason for me saying this is that I recently borrowed a friends Tamron 90mm SP. Some of my shots came out blur due to handshake. So for me, the 135mm would be a waste as I would have to use a tripod, etc to reduce my handshake. So in most cases, the longer zoom won't be fully utilised. Obviously, this is only an issue for flashless indoor photography. So it depends on your dad's shooting style.

As the others would have said... control your breathing.. and use a higher shutter speed.

that would help.

[lsisaxon]

Originally Posted by fWord Yes, that's true. On paper Nikon would seem to be a sensible choice. The kit lens is very much 'walkaround' and my Dad probably won't need to change it at all. It would serve all his shooting needs. My only concern is the quality of the lens. Although I've always marveled at lenses with a big zoom ratio I'm not fond of their performance...that's why I'm trying to get some opinions here as to whether its worth it or not. At the moment I don't believe my Dad has a preference. I have a slight preference for the 400D partly because of the aggressive pricing but I shouldn't let that affect him. My reasoning is that if my Dad is unhappy with the kit lens on the 400D and eventually wants to upgrade, it will cost him a substantial amount anyway. In which case he could have gotten the D80 kit from the start and not need to worry about a lens. I'm beginning to suspect though, that my Dad is interested in doing photography but may not get awfully technical with things, and neither will he be a pixel peeper. In the meantime I've already sent him the Equotes from Cathay Photo...I'll have a chat with him and see what he thinks.

There is no need to doubt the quality of Nikon lenses. I rate Nikon almost on par with Carl Zeiss and just slightly behind Leica in terms of optics, and Olympus not far behind.. Canon's optics is still behind Fujinon.

[nyxx88]

The Nikon kit lens will be very convenient as a walk-about lens, covering from wide to mid-zoom. Would save the hassle of frequent lens changing & sensor dust cleaning .

[fWord]

Thanks for the advice and suggestions, guys. Some have been very detailed indeed. Apologies on not responding here earlier but I've been caught in camp and spending time doing duty. I'm still checking things up with my Dad. I guess the next thing down the track would be for him to personally test out the cameras to see what works for him. Again, a larger VF would probably be better for him considering his eyesight.

But assuming he doesn't mind a smaller VF then the 400D is still a possibility.

[Leinaj]

fWord, hi I put both brands aside first. Everyone of us has dreams, we dream of many things that we want and many of them are also put on suspension bcos life isnt gonna allow you to afford everything that you want.

From what I am reading, your dad has such dreams in suspension too and having a Nikon is his dream come true. For some of us, having a house, a coupe etc will be our dream come true. These dreams are very powerful dreams and when the time come, when the circumstance allow us to own a piece of it, it is but only natural to look around and ask oursleves, are there options available, then we realised that wow, there are and we slowly and surely become confused, we loose our focus, distracted by the many better "features", better value for money, more freebees etc.

We then make a choice, sometimes it may not be our choice but choice of influence or distractions. Months later, when all such distractions become fuzzy, our hearts will play farnie games with us an we start yearning for our earlier dreams and the process starts again. Its only human to be doing that.

If the gap, the comparison isnt really big, I think you dad should allow his dream to come true. Only then will the heart be at peace especially if this dream has been a long dream. Only then will it satisfy his personal dream put to suspension for varying reasons, perhaps to first take care of family first ... perhaps :P

I dun noe if it helps, just seeing it from another perspective