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Thread: thinking of others

  1. #61

    Default Re: thinking of others

    Going by what I have observed in the forums to date, I think that CSers have been helpful in giving pointers to budding photographers for their first wedding shoot. And I believe this help can also be extended by providing checklists as a sticky for the hidden costs involved in a wedding shoot, for example. Better still, the experienced pros can organise workshops for budding photographers on how to take on wedding assignments and how to price appropriately for them.

    update: shinken's new thread is a v good read for all aspiring wedding/commercial photographers. should be made a sticky.
    Last edited by zaren; 19th October 2006 at 07:02 PM.
    you can buy better gear but you can't buy a better eye

  2. #62
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by student View Post
    I have absolutely no contact (except in photoshoots together) whatsoever with any wedding photographers. I have zero interest in wedding photography.

    I see people hammering away at the 20+ idiots. I do not see anyone offering help to these 20+ idiots.

    I am probably ignorant here. But I do not see guidelines to help budding wedding photographers.

    I am sure that there are kind and experienced wedding photographers who mentor younger ones. I am not referring to these. I am referring to those who hammered at these "idiots". I do not see these same types giving advice here. Maybe they might be giving advice in private to these idiots. But since the negotiation between the idiots and the Bride to be was in private, how could they know?

    So what do you think?
    i also wonder why the thread changed direction to target at low price service providers. from the many replies it probably originated from the thought that pros are trying to defend their ricebowls. this thing started with a bride to be coming into the forum looking for photographer willing to take the $200 offer, so i thought we should focus more on the problems with request for cheap service.

    on aspiring wedding photographers,

    personal experience tells me that there are young photographers out there who think they can make a break into the market with just a prosumer DSLR.

    personal experience tells me that wedding photography involves commitment, experience and specific knowledge best acquired while following working photographers as an assistant.

    personal experience tells me that there are working wedding photographers who are willing to give fresh photographers a chance to learn while following them for shoots.

    on requesting for cheap service,

    for most people, i believe they view engagement and wedding as once in a lifetime events (and hope they are)

    setting aside only a small amount of money for the recording of these event put the couples at risk. the small sum will attract fresh photographers with little experience.

    to wedding couples to be: do you really do not mind giving inexperienced photographers a chance? or are you trying to save money? if you say that the coverage need not be of high quality, do you really mean it?

    i'm not saying fresh photographers cannot produce good works, but photographers who produce good works (new or old) more than often know the value of their service well enough.

  3. #63
    vince123123
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Then you should highlight the pitfalls of engaging a cheap photographer to "educate the clients" and they can make an informed choice.

    Everyone is trying to save money in every aspect of life.

    I reckon to discuss quality of work is highly subjective and would know no end (ie to say that a cheap phtoographer is more likely to produce lousy work than a pro photographer) - some dont care, or can't tell anyway.

    Why not focus on more objective criteria when trying to educate the customer? Like pitfalls of engaging a fly by night guy (easy to disappear without warning; equipt breakdown without backup etc etc).

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    setting aside only a small amount of money for the recording of these event put the couples at risk. the small sum will attract fresh photographers with little experience.

    to wedding couples to be: do you really do not mind giving inexperienced photographers a chance? or are you trying to save money? if you say that the coverage need not be of high quality, do you really mean it?.

  4. #64

    Default Re: thinking of others

    Right bro!

    Many so-called pros here have forgotten the route they took to become what they are today.

    The fact is that many pros started by charging cheaply or even free when they first started in this industry. Have they all forgotten that???



    Quote Originally Posted by student View Post
    Personally I do not find it demeaning at all to be associated with "cheap" photographers. But I do find it demeaning to be associated with hypocrites.

    We all start somewhere. Not everyone is blessed with rich parents. Hypothetically speaking, if I were to be passionate about my photography, and I am not particularly well-off, I would jump at the opportunity to earn just that $200.00. And I would appreciate deeply if the more established members here can kindly give me some simple advice.

    I had my past. I have my present. I am now much better off. But I had my hard times.

    I believe I understand those who want that $200.00. Let it be. If one is truly a "bro" (a term so frequently used here), then help those to earn that $200.00.

    Would this not be another way of "Thinking of Others?"
    Last edited by canongrapherL; 19th October 2006 at 07:14 PM.

  5. #65

    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Then you should highlight the pitfalls of engaging a cheap photographer to "educate the clients" and they can make an informed choice.

    Everyone is trying to save money in every aspect of life.

    I reckon to discuss quality of work is highly subjective and would know no end (ie to say that a cheap phtoographer is more likely to produce lousy work than a pro photographer) - some dont care, or can't tell anyway.

    Why not focus on more objective criteria when trying to educate the customer? Like pitfalls of engaging a fly by night guy (easy to disappear without warning; equipt breakdown without backup etc etc).
    good idea....a "wedding photography horror stories" thread. will educate both the "budget client" as well as the budding photographer.
    Last edited by zaren; 19th October 2006 at 07:06 PM.
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  6. #66
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by bride2be View Post
    And interesting topic about ricebowls. Why muz you snatch the rice bowls away from young and budding photographer? And if your work are really fantastic, do you have to fear? I supposed pros' work are comparable to budget photographers'. A market muz be compeititive, if not, your product muz be so amazing that people are willing to pay every single cent for it. Other than that, please brush up your skills to compete in this growingly demanding market.
    after reading through your very long essay, i finally understood where you are coming from.

    you equated the work of a budget photographer worth $200 as being equal to that produced by a working photographer.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Then you should highlight the pitfalls of engaging a cheap photographer to "educate the clients" and they can make an informed choice.

    Everyone is trying to save money in every aspect of life.

    I reckon to discuss quality of work is highly subjective and would know no end (ie to say that a cheap phtoographer is more likely to produce lousy work than a pro photographer) - some dont care, or can't tell anyway.

    Why not focus on more objective criteria when trying to educate the customer? Like pitfalls of engaging a fly by night guy (easy to disappear without warning; equipt breakdown without backup etc etc).
    i think ortega made it clear when he did a simple breakdown of costs involved in wedding photography in the original thread.

  8. #68

    Default Re: thinking of others

    I dun see real pros with fantastic work replying here cuz they behave like a pro.. unliike these unpros people..

    And I am pretty sure why are these "pros" replying and overeacting to my budget because of their rice bowls. Their work are as good as the budding photographers who are kindly offering me. So, "pros", be scared, be VERY scared!!

    Cuz your work ain't good enough..

    And please, if I really WANT to scrimp and save for myself in a once in a lifetime event, I'm nuts! I NEED to! If I have the money I would have sign up with a good bridal studio like Tan Yoong who ties up with Chris Ling. Pre wedding + AD photography, 2 fantastic gowns, etc etc @ $5K. I won't even need to ask.

    I rather talk to my son.. Cuz he listens and understands better than the gorwn ups here.

  9. #69
    vince123123
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Which post is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    i think ortega made it clear when he did a simple breakdown of costs involved in wedding photography in the original thread.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Which post is that?
    you're interested enough, i believe you can find it.

  11. #71

    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by bride2be View Post
    I dun see real pros with fantastic work replying here cuz they behave like a pro.. unliike these unpros people..

    And I am pretty sure why are these "pros" replying and overeacting to my budget because of their rice bowls. Their work are as good as the budding photographers who are kindly offering me. So, "pros", be scared, be VERY scared!!

    Cuz your work ain't good enough..

    And please, if I really WANT to scrimp and save for myself in a once in a lifetime event, I'm nuts! I NEED to! If I have the money I would have sign up with a good bridal studio like Tan Yoong who ties up with Chris Ling. Pre wedding + AD photography, 2 fantastic gowns, etc etc @ $5K. I won't even need to ask.

    I rather talk to my son.. Cuz he listens and understands better than the gorwn ups here.
    good luck with your wedding.
    you can buy better gear but you can't buy a better eye

  12. #72

    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by bride2be View Post
    I dun see real pros with fantastic work replying here cuz they behave like a pro.. unliike these unpros people..

    And I am pretty sure why are these "pros" replying and overeacting to my budget because of their rice bowls. Their work are as good as the budding photographers who are kindly offering me. So, "pros", be scared, be VERY scared!!

    Cuz your work ain't good enough..

    And please, if I really WANT to scrimp and save for myself in a once in a lifetime event, I'm nuts! I NEED to! If I have the money I would have sign up with a good bridal studio like Tan Yoong who ties up with Chris Ling. Pre wedding + AD photography, 2 fantastic gowns, etc etc @ $5K. I won't even need to ask.

    I rather talk to my son.. Cuz he listens and understands better than the gorwn ups here.
    On that tight a budget and has 6 hours of ROM celebration? Pardon me for being nosy, but what kind of budget-constrained celebration that you've planned that needs 6 hours of coverage?

  13. #73
    vince123123
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Well it makes more sense for you to do so since you know what you are talking about and I don't. And you were the one who referred to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    you're interested enough, i believe you can find it.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Then you should highlight the pitfalls of engaging a cheap photographer to "educate the clients" and they can make an informed choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Well it makes more sense for you to do so since you know what you are talking about and I don't. And you were the one who referred to it.
    i'm telling you that the pitfall has been mentioned, ortega has pointed out the costs a photographer has to bear and whether the budget in question is problematic.

    on top of that, you think i should highlight the pitfalls? i have already mentioned the possible risk, what other things you want me to say?

    if you want to know, go look up yourself. i don't like to go round circles.

  15. #75
    vince123123
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    I was talking about the pitfalls to the customer, not to the photographer.

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    i'm telling you that the pitfall has been mentioned, ortega has pointed out the costs a photographer has to bear and whether the budget in question is problematic.

    on top of that, you think i should highlight the pitfalls? i have already mentioned the possible risk, what other things you want me to say?

    if you want to know, go look up yourself. i don't like to go round circles.

  16. #76
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    I was talking about the pitfalls to the customer, not to the photographer.
    if you don't bother to read it, it's quite meaningless for me to state it again. for your benefit, i'll like to point you to the front page of the thread from which this thread originated. the bride to be in question proposed a budget, ortega showed her a list of costs involved. i suppose a thinking adult will be able to deduce that the proposed budget is unreasonable for a working photographer.

    in my post (#62) i mentioned what's involved in wedding photography from my point of view.

    i also mentioned what the risk involved for the customer when an unreasonably low budget is proposed, which in fact you quoted, what more do you want me to say?

  17. #77
    vince123123
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Maybe some misunderstanding. The first two paragraphs of my Post #63 is directed at the portion I have quoted.

    The third and fourth paragraph was made in general - not directed towards you nor requiring a reply from you. Meaning, I'm asking everyone for their views on the pitfalls (which you said you have already contributed, so thats dandy).

    Edit: I do note the first paragraph sounds like it is directed at you though - in any case, if you do not have any more pitfalls to add, then thats fine too Just ignore the fact that I quoted you.

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    if you don't bother to read it, it's quite meaningless for me to state it again. for your benefit, i'll like to point you to the front page of the thread from which this thread originated. the bride to be in question proposed a budget, ortega showed her a list of costs involved. i suppose a thinking adult will be able to deduce that the proposed budget is unreasonable for a working photographer.

    in my post (#62) i mentioned what's involved in wedding photography from my point of view.

    i also mentioned what the risk involved for the customer when an unreasonably low budget is proposed, which in fact you quoted, what more do you want me to say?
    Last edited by vince123123; 19th October 2006 at 08:00 PM.

  18. #78

    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    Who "want" or who "is" and "how" to snatch the rice bowls away from young and budding photographer?
    please enlighten me.
    Thanks for asking.
    Say, all of you are driving people away from this forum.
    photographer-seekers dare not post, I suppose? Some forum mates are just acting like babarians without brains.
    And I guess budding photographers dare not take them up either.

    Picture youself being a student? Someone with skills but nobody will engage you cuz you got no portfolio. If you were to be advised to charge at usual market rate, the potential customers would have taken an experienced and someone with portfolio for proven result.

    Some on, you guys are selfish, dun think you can picture situations out.

  19. #79
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Maybe some misunderstanding. The first two paragraphs of my Post #63 is directed at the portion I have quoted.

    The third and fourth paragraph was made in general - not directed towards you nor requiring a reply from you. Meaning, I'm asking everyone for their views on the pitfalls (which you said you have already contributed, so thats dandy).

    Edit: I do note the first paragraph sounds like it is directed at you though - in any case, if you do not have any more pitfalls to add, then thats fine too Just ignore the fact that I quoted you.
    i see, thanks for the explanation and apologies for the misunderstanding

    for others who want to share/discuss real experience in commercial photography, here's another thread in progress in relation to that http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthrea...hreadid=230321

  20. #80
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by bride2be View Post
    Thanks for asking.
    Say, all of you are driving people away from this forum.
    photographer-seekers dare not post, I suppose? Some forum mates are just acting like babarians without brains.
    And I guess budding photographers dare not take them up either.

    Picture youself being a student? Someone with skills but nobody will engage you cuz you got no portfolio. If you were to be advised to charge at usual market rate, the potential customers would have taken an experienced and someone with portfolio for proven result.

    Some on, you guys are selfish, dun think you can picture situations out.
    for photography students, they can look at working as understudy to working photographers. there are those who offer to teach time to time, and those who employ assistants. students do not need to plunge into the market straight, there's always the choice to pick up experiences before going independent.

    as for you, you mentioned your financial constraints. i suggest you look for friends to help. although you said you want your friends to enjoy the event, you can't have the best of both worlds, unless you really really really do not mind photographers with less experience and may not be able to match the market norm. if you get anything on par with market norm, you're really lucky, but if you get below market norm quality (in your opinion) do you think you will complain? it's a risk involved as i mentioned.

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