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Thread: thinking of others

  1. #41
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by ortega View Post
    thank you all for reading my rantings

    back to business

    once upon a time canned drinks costs $1 (not too long ago) at the kopitiam
    now they all charge $1.20 at least, did anyone of them go out of business?
    that is because all of them charged the same amount and some charged higher
    everyone of them benifitted

    mind you, we all know that their cost for that canned drink is around 0.35 cents

    so, our equipment cost go up by about 150%
    and the equipment does not last as long as b4
    now we need to do PP and we need to buy computers
    batteries, chargers, memory ... ... ...

    we all know how expansive that is, easily can come up to 10K
    how many $200 shoot do you need to do, to recover your cost
    you would need to do 50 $200 shoots to cover your costs

    that is costs not profit, so you are not making money yet, until you cover all your costs.
    and you need to do it b4 your equipment becomes obsolete or the electronics dies.

    after your equipment dies you would need to buy it again.
    it goes round and round again and again

    come on, i am not saying don't undercut or charge cheap
    but be realistic, don't under charge yourself
    you, your skills and your equipment are worth more than that.

    be confident and say no to below your value rate.
    we wil need to lose a few jobs at first, but in the long run
    when/if the market rate is set, everyone benifits
    Completely agree with you.

    You were simply making a point and trying to educate, there is nothing wrong with this, people need to be made aware of their situation. Of course, id say youd have to be able to produce the results otherwise some people are going to be pissed off.

    Who has been hurt here? The women, whats her face? cant remember, cant see her name, nope she hasnt, she has 20 possible photographers! Now, i beleive the 20 photographers (even though they dont know it (probably)) have been hurt.

    You have my full support Alex.

  2. #42
    Senior Member azul123's Avatar
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    From another angle, how about CS? is it being exploited... if this is a forum of sixteen year olds girls and suddenly a 50 year old man dangling a cheapo whatever carrot and some willingly accept it. There's nothing wrong both willing parties, but isn't there something morally wrong?

    ../azul123

  3. #43

    Default Re: thinking of others

    I believe that CS operates on the two principles of Caveat Emptor (let the buyer beware) as well as keeping the buyers informed of current market prices. For example, in Buy and Sell threads for camera equipment, it is considered impolite to crash a sellers thread to warn potential buyers that they are being taken advantage of and that they can get a better deal elsewhere. At the same time, there are stickies that inform all potential buyers the latest (more or less) market prices of camera equipment, to help potential buyers make an informed decision.

    Now, applying these two principles to the sensitive and thorny issue of cheap/free photography services, should it also not be considered impolite to crash a thread-starter's thread if you think that budding photographers are taken advantage of in terms of being offered low fees for their photography services? Would it not be better to post a sticky informing everyone of the market rates for charging for ROM photoshoots, for example, and everything it entails? Or how about sending a Private Message to the thread starter sharing your views and concerns?

    When we talk about a hobby, we should bear in mind that the passion of the hobby usually overshadows the opportunity costs associated with it. For example, how many of us put a dollar value to the time we spend on photography, going on photo outings, model shoots, etc. If we were to do so, I think most of us would balk at the enormous expense involved. However, photography is a fun hobby, and most of us do not mind spending a lot of time in honing our skills and in seeking out photo opportunities, paid or otherwise.

    I am sure that many budding photographers would love to shoot a ROM wedding, because it offers a not-so-common photo opportunity. I even believe that they are perfectly happy to do it for free, provided the client is not fussy about the quality of photographs taken. Even better if the client pays a "token" amount for the photography services. I may be mistaken, but it sure sounds like a win-win scenario for the client and the budding photographer. I am reminded of a scene from the story of Tom Sawyer where he "persuades" his friend Huckleberry Finn to whitewash his parent's fence in exchange for showing him his wounded right toe. Exploitative to a passing observer, but win-win to the two parties involved.

    So why is there such a brouhaha over the subject? I believe that more established photographers and pro photographers may feel that it demeans the entire photography industry. Low pricing that is. And to a certain extent I feel that it is true. However, I also feel that the photography community in singapore, especially those offering professional photography services, should relook how they can cope with an increasingly competitive market where entry barriers are low and falling further. A case in point is the recent news story of increased number of wedding couples buying wedding photography packages from JB which are 50% cheaper than similar packages in Singapore. Perhaps it is time to look more at product differentiation and niche marketing in order to command healthy fees in the market.

    I believe that CS holds great potential for professional photographers to showcase their work and to give themselves more visibility. Once the layman can see a gulf in quality in the photographs produced, then he or she may very well think twice about looking for basement bargains all the time. Otherwise, just live and let live.
    you can buy better gear but you can't buy a better eye

  4. #44

    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by zaren View Post
    I believe that CS operates on the two principles of Caveat Emptor (let the buyer beware) as well as keeping the buyers informed of current market prices. For example, in Buy and Sell threads for camera equipment, it is considered impolite to crash a sellers thread to warn potential buyers that they are being taken advantage of and that they can get a better deal elsewhere. At the same time, there are stickies that inform all potential buyers the latest (more or less) market prices of camera equipment, to help potential buyers make an informed decision.

    Now, applying these two principles to the sensitive and thorny issue of cheap/free photography services, should it also not be considered impolite to crash a thread-starter's thread if you think that budding photographers are taken advantage of in terms of being offered low fees for their photography services? Would it not be better to post a sticky informing everyone of the market rates for charging for ROM photoshoots, for example, and everything it entails? Or how about sending a Private Message to the thread starter sharing your views and concerns?

    When we talk about a hobby, we should bear in mind that the passion of the hobby usually overshadows the opportunity costs associated with it. For example, how many of us put a dollar value to the time we spend on photography, going on photo outings, model shoots, etc. If we were to do so, I think most of us would balk at the enormous expense involved. However, photography is a fun hobby, and most of us do not mind spending a lot of time in honing our skills and in seeking out photo opportunities, paid or otherwise.

    I am sure that many budding photographers would love to shoot a ROM wedding, because it offers a not-so-common photo opportunity. I even believe that they are perfectly happy to do it for free, provided the client is not fussy about the quality of photographs taken. Even better if the client pays a "token" amount for the photography services. I may be mistaken, but it sure sounds like a win-win scenario for the client and the budding photographer. I am reminded of a scene from the story of Tom Sawyer where he "persuades" his friend Huckleberry Finn to whitewash his parent's fence in exchange for showing him his wounded right toe. Exploitative to a passing observer, but win-win to the two parties involved.

    So why is there such a brouhaha over the subject? I believe that more established photographers and pro photographers may feel that it demeans the entire photography industry. Low pricing that is. And to a certain extent I feel that it is true. However, I also feel that the photography community in singapore, especially those offering professional photography services, should relook how they can cope with an increasingly competitive market where entry barriers are low and falling further. A case in point is the recent news story of increased number of wedding couples buying wedding photography packages from JB which are 50% cheaper than similar packages in Singapore. Perhaps it is time to look more at product differentiation and niche marketing in order to command healthy fees in the market.

    I believe that CS holds great potential for professional photographers to showcase their work and to give themselves more visibility. Once the layman can see a gulf in quality in the photographs produced, then he or she may very well think twice about looking for basement bargains all the time. Otherwise, just live and let live.

    Well said!

  5. #45
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by student View Post
    Well said!

    We do not diasgree on everything you know...
    As complexity rises, precise statements lose meaning and meaningful statements lose precision.

  6. #46

    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by roygoh View Post
    We do not diasgree on everything you know...
    Thank God for that! (in the most respectful manner)

    But seriously, disagreements only in viewpoints and opinions. Not on the person.

  7. #47

    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by zaren View Post
    I am sure that many budding photographers would love to shoot a ROM wedding, because it offers a not-so-common photo opportunity. I even believe that they are perfectly happy to do it for free, provided the client is not fussy about the quality of photographs taken. Even better if the client pays a "token" amount for the photography services. I may be mistaken, but it sure sounds like a win-win scenario for the client and the budding photographer. I am reminded of a scene from the story of Tom Sawyer where he "persuades" his friend Huckleberry Finn to whitewash his parent's fence in exchange for showing him his wounded right toe. Exploitative to a passing observer, but win-win to the two parties involved.
    You are exactly right. The only problem is, shooting an ROM wedding on a transactional basis requires commitment. It's not as simple as an opportunity for exposure, or opportunity for increasing experience. The issue is tied to other spiralling chains affecting a much larger picture.

    I will not go into your Tom Sawyer and Hukleberry Finn's analogy because it way oversimplifies the situation, and is hardly, if only barely applicable in this situation. But the "win-win" situation you're talking about is merely temporal.

    More often than not these people (assuming hobbyists and freelancers we're talking about) are unaware of what is expected of them. No matter how small the amount the client pays, the client pays for a service, and has the right to demand and expect. And this expectation is more often than not way bigger than what the casual and innocent hobbyist thinks. Hobbysists who are quick to grab a deal often do not consider signing agreements, contracts, service descriptions. And at the end of the day, the service seekers can demand much more than what was asssumed (just a CD with pictures?). If not for the fact that some forumers raised the issue of prints and albums in the related thread, I am sure as heaven and hell that there are unassuming hobbyists who didn't know that. How about shots they screw up? Do they know they could be held liable? How about extra inventory they don't know they need? How many times now have we seen forumers start threads on what equipment to buy to shoot a wedding "for a friend"? These are all evidences of assumptions. Ignorance.

    There was a saga involving a $200 photographer for ROM photography. Even though that wasn't a 6 hour shoot. The saga ended up as a legal dispute. I'm not sure the casual hobbyist is not ready for such a saga.

    What I illustrated is merely the tip of the iceberg on the chain of issues that are tied to commercial photography. It's not exactly tied to the issue at hand of being willing to jump at any cheap offers.

    If you cannot see the hoo-hah, or whatever the word you used, then do what you said - live and let live. Let those who want to shoot for free, or pay to shoot do so, and let those who wishes to defend a belief do so as well.

  8. #48
    vince123123
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    That's where you are wrong. If there are no terms, no contrracts and no agreements, the "service seekers" CANNOT demand much more than was stated. If it says CD with picutres, it is CD with pictures. Even if it is two pictures (pictures = plural = more than 1), the contract has been satisfied.

    It is in BOTH parties' interests to have an agreement. Not having one doesn't necessarily prejudice the hobbyist.

    As for things which go wrong, that is both the problem of the hobbyist and the cleint. The hobbyist may gabra on that day because of lack of experience. The client may end up with a gabra-ed hobbyist and can't do much about it either. Its like buying a branded product or non=branded product - same thing with hobbyists and pros - some clients want to cut cost and take the risk. They will find it hard pressed to push a case of expecting pro standards for hobbyist rate - your fears are unwarranted.

    Even if the hobbyist screwed up, the clients will again find it difficult to get recourse. Think of an analogy of buying your DSLR from a fly by night shop vs from an established shop - which do you think its easier to get recourse when things go wrong? Which do you think has deeper pockets to get sued if you want to sue. These are the things which the pros (perhaps yourself) should educate the client on when they employ a $200 hobbyist, and not go on rambling and cursing at low priced things. Then let the client decide after cosnidering the advantages and disadvantages of each.

    What legal saga are you talking about? Details would be good.

    Quote Originally Posted by shinken View Post
    More often than not these people (assuming hobbyists and freelancers we're talking about) are unaware of what is expected of them. No matter how small the amount the client pays, the client pays for a service, and has the right to demand and expect. And this expectation is more often than not way bigger than what the casual and innocent hobbyist thinks. Hobbysists who are quick to grab a deal often do not consider signing agreements, contracts, service descriptions. And at the end of the day, the service seekers can demand much more than what was asssumed (just a CD with pictures?). If not for the fact that some forumers raised the issue of prints and albums in the related thread, I am sure as heaven and hell that there are unassuming hobbyists who didn't know that. How about shots they screw up? Do they know they could be held liable? How about extra inventory they don't know they need? How many times now have we seen forumers start threads on what equipment to buy to shoot a wedding "for a friend"? These are all evidences of assumptions. Ignorance.

    There was a saga involving a $200 photographer for ROM photography. Even though that wasn't a 6 hour shoot. The saga ended up as a legal dispute. I'm not sure the casual hobbyist is not ready for such a saga.

    What I illustrated is merely the tip of the iceberg on the chain of issues that are tied to commercial photography. It's not exactly tied to the issue at hand of being willing to jump at any cheap offers.

    If you cannot see the hoo-hah, or whatever the word you used, then do what you said - live and let live. Let those who want to shoot for free, or pay to shoot do so, and let those who wishes to defend a belief do so as well.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Personally, there is no issue about defending your ricebowl. You can do it silently, post it, or proactively changing your pricing.

    The thing that didn't go well with me is the sarcasm attached to the posts. If you do not agree with the TS's proposition, let it be known if need be. But statements like volunteering a camera phone or only able to afford an album is uncalled for.

    Some may disagree, we will just let it be.

  10. #50

    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    What legal saga are you talking about? Details would be good.
    Apologies for being vague, but the photography community is not exactly that big. This one I'm talking about involves someone who didn't had the "right equipment" to deliver the shots due to "unforseen circumstances".

    Tied to that, is me seeing another hobbyist freelancer being alarmed by the saga, and went on the buy more equipment. But sadly, didn't factor that into pricing. Eventually, selling all his equipment, books and whatever related to photography, out of disgust. His fault, many might say. Just as many as those who say it's the buyers and sellers own choice. And equipment is but one of the costs. I know another photographer who got flamed because he tried to claim transport after the agreed "price". His fault again. For not knowing taxi charges can be expensive, and public transport may jeopardise the shoot.

    There are many costs to list down. Many of them hidden. Most never being taken into account by the ridiculous prices being offered and accepted here.

  11. #51

    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by shinken View Post
    Apologies for being vague, but the photography community is not exactly that big. This one I'm talking about involves someone who didn't had the "right equipment" to deliver the shots due to "unforseen circumstances".

    Tied to that, is me seeing another hobbyist freelancer being alarmed by the saga, and went on the buy more equipment. But sadly, didn't factor that into pricing. Eventually, selling all his equipment, books and whatever related to photography, out of disgust. His fault, many might say. Just as many as those who say it's the buyers and sellers own choice. And equipment is but one of the costs. I know another photographer who got flamed because he tried to claim transport after the agreed "price". His fault again. For not knowing taxi charges can be expensive, and public transport may jeopardise the shoot.

    There are many costs to list down. Many of them hidden. Most never being taken into account by the ridiculous prices being offered and accepted here.
    I see your concern in this post.

    Perhaps, instead of harping on this issue about "exploitation', maybe CS might come up with a checklist of some sort to help newbies in this industry.

    And leave the negotiation of pricing to the parties involved in the transaction.

  12. #52
    vince123123
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Hmm, sorry the caes still doesn't come to mind - is there a forum link to it? If it is a legal saga, is there a case number?

    Anyway, following on from your post, the approach to take, if the big brothers really wish to educate, is to point out the things you are talking about, along the same lines as my previous post (just prior to this one), ie to inform the hobbyist of the pitfalls he may encounter for S$200 and whether he wants to take those risks for S$200. Again the decision is for him to make. Education by mocking and scolding both the hobbyist and/or the client, is not helpful at all, merely emotive.

    Quote Originally Posted by shinken View Post
    Apologies for being vague, but the photography community is not exactly that big. This one I'm talking about involves someone who didn't had the "right equipment" to deliver the shots due to "unforseen circumstances".

    Tied to that, is me seeing another hobbyist freelancer being alarmed by the saga, and went on the buy more equipment. But sadly, didn't factor that into pricing. Eventually, selling all his equipment, books and whatever related to photography, out of disgust. His fault, many might say. Just as many as those who say it's the buyers and sellers own choice. And equipment is but one of the costs. I know another photographer who got flamed because he tried to claim transport after the agreed "price". His fault again. For not knowing taxi charges can be expensive, and public transport may jeopardise the shoot.

    There are many costs to list down. Many of them hidden. Most never being taken into account by the ridiculous prices being offered and accepted here.

  13. #53

    Default Re: thinking of others

    please wake up lah! That statement made by the TS is only a figure of speech, not claiming that they are crazy or desperate for $$$.

    That 20 over photogs are willing and that does not demean them in anyway.

    Does that means those hairstylist who work in QB Cut salon charging at only $10 a hair cut are insulting themselves???



    Quote Originally Posted by ortega View Post
    now i need to get that into the head of the 20 over photogs
    who were insulted 3 times and still willing to do the job.

    maybe need to work on their self esteem as well

  14. #54
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Maybe ortega needs to recognize that there are bottom feeders in the sea of photographers that sell their services. The sentiment here is overwhelmingly one of avoiding exploitation, yet there are photographers quietly taking up these jobs anyway (according to bride2be, 20-odd of them).

    Just accept that there would be photographers willing to work at any given price level - the results will more or less reflect the money changing hands. If the photographer is good, yet has been undercharging, he will soon raise his prices in order to make his time worthwhile. Basic human nature, and economics, that he will raise his prices to the point where his business starts to fall off.

    As a member of Clubsnap I find it a bit demeaning to be associated with cheap photograpy/ers but that's the general situation here - lots of learners and hobbyists. It is inevitable that people would come in here thus looking for exactly what this forum has a lot of.

    Its a little bit like the TFCD models. Some of them might be very good, yet need to build a portfolio, and there are hordes of photographers eager to get a piece of that.

  15. #55

    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by student View Post
    I see your concern in this post.

    Perhaps, instead of harping on this issue about "exploitation', maybe CS might come up with a checklist of some sort to help newbies in this industry.

    And leave the negotiation of pricing to the parties involved in the transaction.
    I agree in shame. Believe me, I tried. As with many others, be it full-time pros, or experienced part-timers. These efforts are not consolidated I have to admit. But as with the difficulty of "teaching photography", it's also quite difficult to list the costs, obligations and what unexpected circumstances to expect.

    I will seriously sit on it for a while, and see I can start a thread on this and let the other more qualified old birds to add on.

  16. #56

    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Hmm, sorry the caes still doesn't come to mind - is there a forum link to it? If it is a legal saga, is there a case number?

    Anyway, following on from your post, the approach to take, if the big brothers really wish to educate, is to point out the things you are talking about, along the same lines as my previous post (just prior to this one), ie to inform the hobbyist of the pitfalls he may encounter for S$200 and whether he wants to take those risks for S$200. Again the decision is for him to make. Education by mocking and scolding both the hobbyist and/or the client, is not helpful at all, merely emotive.
    Apologies once again, really don't wish to go into details of the example I raised. Now that you're pursuing, I'm ashamed I brought up someone else's unpleasant memory just to make a point.

    Again, agreed. I'll try to organise my thoughts a little and do a little more than whine.

  17. #57

    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by r32 View Post
    As a member of Clubsnap I find it a bit demeaning to be associated with cheap photograpy/ers but that's the general situation here - lots of learners and hobbyists. It is inevitable that people would come in here thus looking for exactly what this forum has a lot of.
    Personally I do not find it demeaning at all to be associated with "cheap" photographers. But I do find it demeaning to be associated with hypocrites.

    We all start somewhere. Not everyone is blessed with rich parents. Hypothetically speaking, if I were to be passionate about my photography, and I am not particularly well-off, I would jump at the opportunity to earn just that $200.00. And I would appreciate deeply if the more established members here can kindly give me some simple advice.

    I had my past. I have my present. I am now much better off. But I had my hard times.

    I believe I understand those who want that $200.00. Let it be. If one is truly a "bro" (a term so frequently used here), then help those to earn that $200.00.

    Would this not be another way of "Thinking of Others?"
    Last edited by student; 19th October 2006 at 06:03 PM.

  18. #58
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by student View Post
    Personally I do not find it demeaning at all to be associated with "cheap" photographers. But I do find it demeaning to be associated with hypocrites.

    We all start somewhere. Not everyone is blessed with rich parents. Hypothetically speaking, if I were to be passionate about my photography, and I am not particularly well-off, I would jump at the opportunity to earn just that $200.00. And I would appreciate deeply if the more established members here can kindly give me some simple advice.

    I had my past. I have my present. I am now much better off. But I had my hard times.

    I believe I understand those who want that $200.00. Let it be. If one is truly a "bro" (a term so frequently used here), then help those to earn that $200.00.

    Would this not be another way of "Thinking of Others?"
    are you implying that the wedding pros here aren't very helpful?

  19. #59

    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    are you implying that the wedding pros here aren't very helpful?
    I have absolutely no contact (except in photoshoots together) whatsoever with any wedding photographers. I have zero interest in wedding photography.

    I see people hammering away at the 20+ idiots. I do not see anyone offering help to these 20+ idiots.

    I am probably ignorant here. But I do not see guidelines to help budding wedding photographers.

    I am sure that there are kind and experienced wedding photographers who mentor younger ones. I am not referring to these. I am referring to those who hammered at these "idiots". I do not see these same types giving advice here. Maybe they might be giving advice in private to these idiots. But since the negotiation between the idiots and the Bride to be was in private, how could they know?

    So what do you think?

  20. #60
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    are you implying that the wedding pros here aren't very helpful?
    guess he would be implying that pros should give chance to hobbits and nubist... let them earn the 200 bucks so they can slowly upgrade from kit lens to 17-55f2.8 VR-G...

    but den again, if i were to agree, i also wanna ask the wedding pros to give free actual wedding photography course, so that i can learn the trade, and also i wanna know their pricing strategies and their creative style... best if they throw some high profitability customers to me as well... i promise to do even better to offer a more holistic approach...
    Logging Off. "You have 2,631 messages stored, of a total 400 allowed." don't PM me.

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