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Thread: thinking of others

  1. #21
    Senior Member Cheesecake's Avatar
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by ortega View Post
    thank you all for reading my rantings

    back to business

    once upon a time canned drinks costs $1 (not too long ago) at the kopitiam
    now they all charge $1.20 at least, did anyone of them go out of business?
    that is because all of them charged the same amount and some charged higher
    everyone of them benifitted

    mind you, we all know that their cost for that canned drink is around 0.35 cents

    so, our equipment cost go up by about 150%
    and the equipment does not last as long as b4
    now we need to do PP and we need to buy computers
    batteries, chargers, memory ... ... ...

    we all know how expansive that is, easily can come up to 10K
    how many $200 shoot do you need to do, to recover your cost
    you would need to do 50 $200 shoots to cover your costs

    that is costs not profit, so you are not making money yet, until you cover all your costs.
    and you need to do it b4 your equipment becomes obsolete or the electronics dies.

    after your equipment dies you would need to buy it again.
    it goes round and round again and again

    come on, i am not saying don't undercut or charge cheap
    but be realistic, don't under charge yourself
    you, your skills and your equipment are worth more than that.

    be confident and say no to below your value rate.
    we wil need to lose a few jobs at first, but in the long run
    when/if the market rate is set, everyone benifits
    well said.
    You'll Never Walk Alone! - i have the best job in the world!

  2. #22
    Moderator ortega's Avatar
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    now i need to get that into the head of the 20 over photogs
    who were insulted 3 times and still willing to do the job.

    maybe need to work on their self esteem as well

  3. #23

    Default Re: thinking of others

    gd luck to the photog tat took up the job...
    Buying a DSLR/SLR doesn't make you a photographer. It makes you a DSLR/SLR owner
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  4. #24
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    A lot of people think of freelance as cheaper alternatives to pros. I always tell them to think the other way round - Since I'm a freelance, I don't have to depend on photography for income, so I'm entitled to charge a higher price! Maybe that's why I don't have many customers
    If you understand my works, it's photography. If you don't, it's art.
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  5. #25
    Moderator ortega's Avatar
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by Splutter View Post
    A lot of people think of freelance as cheaper alternatives to pros. I always tell them to think the other way round - Since I'm a freelance, I don't have to depend on photography for income, so I'm entitled to charge a higher price! Maybe that's why I don't have many customers
    ha ha that is what i do as well
    in fact, i don't pay to shoot XMM as well

    heck, i don't even have a wedding portfolio to show anyone

  6. #26
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by ortega View Post
    now i need to get that into the head of the 20 over photogs
    who were insulted 3 times and still willing to do the job.

    maybe need to work on their self esteem as well

    all into S&M...
    Logging Off. "You have 2,631 messages stored, of a total 400 allowed." don't PM me.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by ortega View Post
    now i need to get that into the head of the 20 over photogs
    who were insulted 3 times and still willing to do the job.

    maybe need to work on their self esteem as well
    You want to be the motivation speaker for the wedding photography course?

  8. #28

    Thumbs up Re: thinking of others

    Ortega,

    Fully support your view...

  9. #29

    Default Re: thinking of others

    yawn.."professionals" are crying foul, complaining.. she just said she needed a ROM photographer.

    Time had changed, your rice bowl is shaking, do something..

    Who really needs a "pros" to cover ROM? Maybe Jennifer Lopez..

    there are a lot of so called "pros" that gave $200 standard...time had changed, singers can't earn that much in cd selling, actors can't earn that much through video rentals or video tape..but eventually, they got benefited by mp3, they gain popularity in worldwide, they hold concert more than before, actors got wider market, and popularity makes them to endorse in advertisements.

    Of course, more important, only good enough singers and actors are surviving, those lame singers and actors in 90's isn't surviving, because they can't perform..

    So most ppl are able to get an DSLR and give pretty good photos in some sense, what all you "pros" going to do to change it? maybe u should go for more "pros" area, ROM photographer may not your cup of tea..
    Last edited by LENS; 19th October 2006 at 01:16 PM.

  10. #30

    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by LENS View Post
    yawn.."professionals" are crying foul, complaining.. she just said she needed a ROM photographer.

    Time had changed, your rice bowl is shaking, do something..

    Who really needs a "pros" to cover ROM? Maybe Jennifer Lopez..

    there are a lot of so called "pros" that gave $200 standard...time had changed, singers can't earn that much in cd selling, actors can't earn that much through video rentals or video tape..but eventually, they got benefited by mp3, they gain popularity in worldwide, they hold concert more than before, actors got wider market, and popularity makes them to endorse in advertisements.

    Of course, more important, only good enough singers and actors are surviving, those lame singers and actors in 90's isn't surviving, because they can't perform..

    So most ppl are able to get an DSLR and give pretty good photos in some sense, what all you "pros" going to do to change it? maybe u should go for more "pros" area, ROM photographer may not your cup of tea..
    I agree.

    I myself, fortunately enough do not earn my ricebowl from this hobby. So, basically to me it is a supply & demand when it comes to pple asking for photography services. If it is too cheapskate , then dun do it. If you think it is ok , then do it.

    Honestly for interest sake only in the hobby, i have done some free services for charity and wedding couples (friends etc), but the qualities "sucks" and they know the expected quality outputs before hand prior to shooting. Again , not everyone thinks this way.

    It is important that both the expactations of the client and the photographer match to prevent unhappiness.
    Last edited by kitkat; 19th October 2006 at 01:59 PM.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    One more point to add:

    When people say they don't need "high end shots", don't ever believe them.

    Seriously, don't.
    Sony Alpha system user. www.pbase.com/synapseman

  12. #32

    Default Re: thinking of others

    maybe it is a case of everyone is looking at the issue from different perspective?

    One side of the story, the professionals (people who take photography as career), the other side the hobbyists who jumps at the opportunity to take photos of anything.

    Hence once side will not do unless there is money, the other side will do even if no money.

    Result? Arguements will go on and on.... and no conclusion cos both sides are looking at issue from very different perspective. And also perhaps CS is no longer the playground of pros only but we have lots of hobbyists here who dont think like pros.

  13. #33

    Default Re: thinking of others

    Yes, rice bowls are shaking hence the sound and fury.

    Running a business is more than just being able to arrive at the profit for each job. That's accounting, not running a business.

    It involves much more than factoring in equipment depreciation, cost of wedding album, time cost, utilities etc. to arrive at the correct price to charge, in this case for ROM photography.

    But what is your value proposition?

    Are you competing on price?
    Are you competing on artistic merit?
    Are you competing on speed?
    Are you competing on convenience by offering one-stop services?

    More importantly, do your customers value your value proposition?

    If you compete on artistic merit, and your pictures are arresting and thought provoking, do your clients appreciate that? Or can they even differentiate between good and bad photos?

    Is the solution to be found in 'educating' the masses on the value of 'good photographs'?

    I thought businesses are supposed to react to customers, or better yet, anticipate customer needs, not the other way around?

    If your client does not value 'good photographs', perhaps you should target a different segment of the market.

    Or offer other services that he would pay for.

  14. #34

    Default Re: thinking of others

    Ortega, I deeply salute you, as a fellow member of this photographic community, for taking up this issue of exploitation of photographers here in Clubsnap, despite not being a full-time professional.

    Clubsnap has gained a reputation of a hunting ground for shoppers of photography service who are unwilling to pay the rack rate offered. Trust me on this. I hear comments from solicitors like "Want cheap? Find in clubsnap. Tons of them around in Clubsnap"; "Why pay for photography when you can get it free? Just go to Clubsnap." And some comments can really be really insulting. The the saddest part of it all is, these comments are all true.

  15. #35

    Default Re: thinking of others

    Hi friends, time has changed, only some with real passions can claim as "Pros" and charge as Pros, war time photographer, national geographic, landscape, celebrities potraits, commercial, do you expect this guy take off the weekend for a ROM? only if you are jennifer lopez... because most ppl have equiped with DSLR that good enough to cover an event, they probably don't understand photography rather than click, if image blur then set ISO to 1600. That's all.... and most people takes it, since they just need snapshot.

  16. #36

    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by shinken View Post
    Ortega, I deeply salute you, as a fellow member of this photographic community, for taking up this issue of exploitation of photographers here in Clubsnap, despite not being a full-time professional.

    Clubsnap has gained a reputation of a hunting ground for shoppers of photography service who are unwilling to pay the rack rate offered. Trust me on this. I hear comments from solicitors like "Want cheap? Find in clubsnap. Tons of them around in Clubsnap"; "Why pay for photography when you can get it free? Just go to Clubsnap." And some comments can really be really insulting. The the saddest part of it all is, these comments are all true.
    Ken, how can photographers here be "exploited" when they plainly will not take up such offers?

    To exploit is to have unfair use of another. Those who do not want to work for this amount have not been "exploited".

    Those who are willing, do not have a gun pointing at their head to do so. Are we to question those who are willing to "work" for this amount?

  17. #37

    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by ortega View Post
    thank you all for reading my rantings

    back to business

    once upon a time canned drinks costs $1 (not too long ago) at the kopitiam
    now they all charge $1.20 at least, did anyone of them go out of business?
    that is because all of them charged the same amount and some charged higher
    everyone of them benifitted

    mind you, we all know that their cost for that canned drink is around 0.35 cents

    so, our equipment cost go up by about 150%
    and the equipment does not last as long as b4
    now we need to do PP and we need to buy computers
    batteries, chargers, memory ... ... ...

    we all know how expansive that is, easily can come up to 10K
    how many $200 shoot do you need to do, to recover your cost
    you would need to do 50 $200 shoots to cover your costs

    that is costs not profit, so you are not making money yet, until you cover all your costs.
    and you need to do it b4 your equipment becomes obsolete or the electronics dies.

    after your equipment dies you would need to buy it again.
    it goes round and round again and again

    come on, i am not saying don't undercut or charge cheap
    but be realistic, don't under charge yourself
    you, your skills and your equipment are worth more than that.

    be confident and say no to below your value rate.
    we wil need to lose a few jobs at first, but in the long run
    when/if the market rate is set, everyone benifits

  18. #38
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by ortega View Post
    now i need to get that into the head of the 20 over photogs
    who were insulted 3 times and still willing to do the job.

    maybe need to work on their self esteem as well
    It's unfortunate that to an amateur who hasn't too many opportunities to make some money out of photography, it's a case of either $0 or $200.

    The more they find out how much is a 6-hour job worth in the real commercial world, the more they will be brave to ask for more.

  19. #39
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by shinken View Post
    Clubsnap has gained a reputation of a hunting ground for shoppers of photography service who are unwilling to pay the rack rate offered. Trust me on this. I hear comments from solicitors like "Want cheap? Find in clubsnap. Tons of them around in Clubsnap"; "Why pay for photography when you can get it free? Just go to Clubsnap." And some comments can really be really insulting. The the saddest part of it all is, these comments are all true.
    We have to remind ourselves that ClubSnap is not CheapSnap.

    The more noises the community makes, the more outsiders know that we're not CheapSnap or FreeSnap.

  20. #40

    Default Re: thinking of others

    Quote Originally Posted by student View Post
    Ken, how can photographers here be "exploited" when they plainly will not take up such offers?

    To exploit is to have unfair use of another. Those who do not want to work for this amount have not been "exploited".

    Those who are willing, do not have a gun pointing at their head to do so. Are we to question those who are willing to "work" for this amount?
    Hmm, how should I go about this...
    Well, strictly speaking, they are "willing parties", so the people who accept the offers are not exactly "exploited", if that's where you're coming from.

    Where I am coming from, the exploitation means this. The service seeker deliberately goes into a community of desperate (sorry, lack of better word) service providers who are quick to jump on any offer. And I mean any offer. The service seeker knows that the offer is below the industry price. Which is well and good. But goes beyond seeking a cheap deal by trying to push the floor even further by offering some ridiculous amounts, and sometimes even nothing. This is despite the fact that the service seeker knows that there is cost involve in the service sought, and their offer is with full awareness, below this cost.

    That's where I am coming from.

    And no. I have no issues with desperate service providers, and I believe no one has the right, myself included, to question how much they should work for. My concern is for the unaware, the ignorant, and the newcomers, who see this as a 'normality' as a larger society to conform into. As 'the way to go if you want to start out, or make a living'.

    My 2 main issues -

    1) Clubsnap,the same place that groomed me as a photographer, earning the reputation of a community of free and cheap photographers.
    2) The future of photography in Singapore.

    The latter, is really hard to explain. I believe it's time for the long overdue coffee between us ya?

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