Prosumers... FZ50 or S9600??

[Clockunder]

Originally Posted by ExplorerZ when did i ever say i can't shoot at 1/40? anyway if you have tried shooting with any of the fz at 12x zoom without stabiliser, it is very very hard to even get sharp image @ 1/72s. so my guess is that the 1/focal length rule apply on 35mm equiv. in this case fz will be arond 1/420 @ 12x zoom

Are you trying to say that the OIS works for 4 stops? hahahaha. That's an illusion, my friend.

Did I ever say that you're wrong to say that you can shoot at 1/40.

And I was merely pointing out to you and others that the actual focal length is only 72mm and 1/40 is no surprise and not a big deal as it is only 1 stop down.

So you are trying to tell others that you have to shoot faster than 1/420 on the FZ if OIS is not on? This indirectly means that if image stabiliser is not on, you can't shoot handheld at full zoom in most except the brightest light condition. That is definitely not the case because it means it's a miracle how tens of thousands of people have shot at much slower shutter speed at full zoom on prosumer cameras without image stabiliser in the past. So I'm proud to announce that I've been performing many miracles by shooting between 1/60-/200 handheld on uncountable occassions with my prosumer camera without image stabiliser at full zoom 280mm on 35mm format equivalent (actual focal lenght is 72mm). For other focal lengths, I can easily avoid handshake blur on almost all occassions when shutter speed is slower than 1/2 of 1/focal length on 35mm equivalent but faster than 1/actual focal length (e.g. at 1/40 at actual focal length 25mm which is about 100mm on 35mm equivalent). It's no miracle if one knows the truth.

[Clockunder]

Originally Posted by bister haven't had a try on this camera yet.. was wondering, i really dun know whether i should go for 6Mp or 9/10Mp, i dun know whether i'm too kiasu, i always think that 9Mp is much better to aim for? is it true?

The lens and the image sensor is more important than having more pixels in this case because 6MP is quite sufficient and with lens on prosumer cameras on a relatively short actual focal length and a small image sensor, the extra 3 or 4 MP doesn't make a significant difference.

Even the Nikon D70s has only 6.1 MP. but can produce much better picture resolution and quality than a prosumer camera with 10MP especially when the subject is far away.

[bister]

for a 1/1.6 9MP, compared to 1/1.8 10MP... does it mean the 9MP one will have better quality?

Originally Posted by Clockunder The lens and the image sensor is more important than having more pixels in this case because 6MP is quite sufficient and with lens on prosumer cameras on a relatively short actual focal length and a small image sensor, the extra 3 or 4 MP doesn't make a significant difference. Even the Nikon D70s has only 6.1 MP. but can produce much better picture resolution and quality than a prosumer camera with 10MP especially when the subject is far away.

[Clockunder]

Originally Posted by bister for a 1/1.6 9MP, compared to 1/1.8 10MP... does it mean the 9MP one will have better quality?

Not necessarily.

All things constant, having less pixels on a bigger sensor (i.e. 1/1.6 9MP) has less probability of noise.

But then, all things constant, having higher no. of pixel is better.

But then in the real world, not all things are constant. You have to see where the limitation lies : image sensor resoluton or image sensor noise or camera lens or camera processor algorithm etc.

In your 2 examples above, all other things constant and given current sensor technology, I would prefer 1/1.6 9MP to 1/1.8 10MP.

[Zaknafein]

Originally Posted by bister haven't had a try on this camera yet.. was wondering, i really dun know whether i should go for 6Mp or 9/10Mp, i dun know whether i'm too kiasu, i always think that 9Mp is much better to aim for? is it true?

i always thought 9MP was overkill at first. frankly speaking, 6MP is indeed sufficient.
but u know, humans are born greedy. and once i got used to 9MP, its hard going back to 6.
its like drugs for me lol. but really, 6MP is enough.

[Zaknafein]

i agree with Clockunder in that, for full tele shot like the fz50, one does not need 1/420 shutter speed to get a sharp image. i have tried many times with my prosumer, 1/100 is quite sufficient.

another point i agree with Clockunder is that, its not really the no. of megapixels that matters for image quality. it is how many pixels squeezed into an image sensor (pixel density) thats more important.

[li0nheart07]

so whats the result of the final showdown between Pana's FZ50 and Fuji's S9600?
haha

[bister]

i see... i guess two votes for s9600...

Originally Posted by Clockunder In your 2 examples above, all other things constant and given current sensor technology, I would prefer 1/1.6 9MP to 1/1.8 10MP.

Originally Posted by Zaknafein another point i agree with Clockunder is that, its not really the no. of megapixels that matters for image quality. it is how many pixels squeezed into an image sensor (pixel density) thats more important.

i guess that's why i can't really bring myself to consider the 6MP although the reviews on it seems to be quite a good quality camera..

Originally Posted by Zaknafein i always thought 9MP was overkill at first. frankly speaking, 6MP is indeed sufficient. but u know, humans are born greedy. and once i got used to 9MP, its hard going back to 6. its like drugs for me lol. but really, 6MP is enough.

[bister]

still no results.... anyone willing to post some high ISO unprocessed pictures from both the FZ50 and S9600??

Originally Posted by li0nheart07 so whats the result of the final showdown between Pana's FZ50 and Fuji's S9600? haha

[liveevil]

Originally Posted by bister i see... i guess two votes for s9600... i guess that's why i can't really bring myself to consider the 6MP although the reviews on it seems to be quite a good quality camera..

dun need 9mb...6mb is enough for a lot of things already....unless u print big photos.....

[Clockunder]

Originally Posted by bister still no results.... anyone willing to post some high ISO unprocessed pictures from both the FZ50 and S9600??

Below is a link to a ISO 1600 comparison between FZ50 and S9500 (the older brother of S9600 which is expected to be slightly better in this regard). Both also not impressive although the S9500 wins in this regard. That's why I prefer the Fujifilm S6500fd (6 MP) which has less pixels on a sensor just marginally smaller than S9600 (9MP).

FZ50 is superior in many areas except the high ISO performance noise level. Fujifilm's strong point has always been its Super HR CCD sensor.

Different people have different needs and priorities.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/pana...z50/page15.asp

[Clockunder]

The first link below is a comparison between FZ30 and FZ50 at ISO400.

The second link is a full image taken by FZ30 at ISO400 (left click on the picture to show at 100% full resolution and can see it's quite noisy).

The third link is a full image taken by Fujifilm S9500 at ISO 800 (left click on the picture to show at 100% full resolution and can see the noise although not as bad as the FZ).

Actually, test for noise performance should be at black/dark areas where light signal is low and therefore noise becomes much more apparent when amplified by higher ISO used. Also we must not forget about the noise reduction applied in camera and therefore we need to watch out for loss of details.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/pana...z50/page12.asp

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2005_...s/p1000346.jpg

http://img2.dpreview.com/gallery/fuj...s/dscf0271.jpg

[Clockunder]

At ISO 1600, there is not very significant difference in picture quality between FZ50 and S9500. I guess the difference is probably slightly more pronounced at ISO 400 and 800.

I haven't seen many pictures from the new S9600 yet. So can't really comment.

Unless you're very particular about noise at ISO 400 and 800 because of the low light condition you're shooting in quite frequently (e.g. indoor even during day), then FZ50 is probably a better choice because of a good Leica lens and Mega OIS.

Personally, I prefer the Fujifilm S6500fd for its even lower noise level at high ISO although it doesn't have some of the more advanced features in the S9600.

You choice will depend on how much you're willing to spend, what kinds of light condition you shoot frequently, whether you have shaky hands and whether you intend to upgrade to a DSLR later.

For me, the S6500fd is a stop-gap camera before I get into DSLR. I'm waiting for Canon and Nikon to succumb to pressure and start producing DSLR bodies with image stabiliser before I embark on a DSLR. This is because then will be more competition between Canon, Nikon, Sony, Pentax etc. to push prices down. Moreover, as Sony DSLR bodies get more popular, there may be more third party lenses from Sigma, Tamron, Tokina etc. for Sony's A-buoynet mount.

You may want to look at the Fujifilm and Panasonic forum at dpreview for more info on the 2 cameras you're looking at now :

Fujifilm : http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1012

Panasonic : http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1033

[compro_1975]

what is the price of both cams???

[bister]

but i believe high iso pictures from both cameras won't be really noticeable in 4R size or maybe 8R size? or will it?

i believe i'll stop at a prosumer camera, at least for quite a while... therefore, i want to have a good thought before i embark on the journey...

thanks for the links!

Originally Posted by Clockunder At ISO 1600, there is not very significant difference in picture quality between FZ50 and S9500. I guess the difference is probably slightly more pronounced at ISO 400 and 800. I haven't seen many pictures from the new S9600 yet. So can't really comment. Unless you're very particular about noise at ISO 400 and 800 because of the low light condition you're shooting in quite frequently (e.g. indoor even during day), then FZ50 is probably a better choice because of a good Leica lens and Mega OIS. Personally, I prefer the Fujifilm S6500fd for its even lower noise level at high ISO although it doesn't have some of the more advanced features in the S9600. You choice will depend on how much you're willing to spend, what kinds of light condition you shoot frequently, whether you have shaky hands and whether you intend to upgrade to a DSLR later. For me, the S6500fd is a stop-gap camera before I get into DSLR. I'm waiting for Canon and Nikon to succumb to pressure and start producing DSLR bodies with image stabiliser before I embark on a DSLR. This is because then will be more competition between Canon, Nikon, Sony, Pentax etc. to push prices down. Moreover, as Sony DSLR bodies get more popular, there may be more third party lenses from Sigma, Tamron, Tokina etc. for Sony's A-buoynet mount. You may want to look at the Fujifilm and Panasonic forum at dpreview for more info on the 2 cameras you're looking at now : Fujifilm : http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1012 Panasonic : http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1033

[Zaknafein]

4R, maybe not, but i believe in 8R, noise will be noticeable

[bister]

maybe put it this way... for a maybe night scene, or low light condition, maybe at ISO800, will the 8R output difference between these two cameras be very obvious?

pardon me, one more question, is it possible to take pictures with slight movement, for example, a dog or cat at low light (indoor) without flash? will the quality be good? cos i tried taking with another point and shoot, once i adjusted the ISO to higher level and without flash, the shutter speed is automatically adjusted slower (1/8, 1/10 for example), and any slight movement will blur the image.. i'm wondering if this is the same for prosumers? haven't really had a chance to try the fz50 and s9500/s9600 in these conditions...

thanks all.

Originally Posted by Zaknafein 4R, maybe not, but i believe in 8R, noise will be noticeable

[michhy]

Originally Posted by bister is it possible to take pictures with slight movement, for example, a dog or cat at low light (indoor) without flash?

In this condition, higher ISO is a must, because you need a fast shutter speed. Anti-shake will not help much unless your dog or cat is standing very still. Anti-shake is generally used to reduce handshake, it will not freeze subject movement.

[blueskye168]

Originally Posted by bister maybe put it this way... for a maybe night scene, or low light condition, maybe at ISO800, will the 8R output difference between these two cameras be very obvious? pardon me, one more question, is it possible to take pictures with slight movement, for example, a dog or cat at low light (indoor) without flash? will the quality be good? cos i tried taking with another point and shoot, once i adjusted the ISO to higher level and without flash, the shutter speed is automatically adjusted slower (1/8, 1/10 for example), and any slight movement will blur the image.. i'm wondering if this is the same for prosumers? haven't really had a chance to try the fz50 and s9500/s9600 in these conditions... thanks all.

Hi bister, with your desciption of "slight movement+at low light (indoor) without flash" if only natural-light, usually even at ISO 200 to 400 the shutter speed is abt 1/2 to abt 1/4(based on rough guide, unless degree of brightness is provided) + No Image Stabilizer=can't really handheld cam. If were to say increase ISO to 800 is abt another 1 to 2 stops from ISO 200-400 might not really help much, shutter speed abt 1/8 to 1/15 without Image Stabilizer =can't really handheld cam also, right? (Pls correct me if wrong )Thanks.

[Zaknafein]

Originally Posted by bister maybe put it this way... for a maybe night scene, or low light condition, maybe at ISO800, will the 8R output difference between these two cameras be very obvious? pardon me, one more question, is it possible to take pictures with slight movement, for example, a dog or cat at low light (indoor) without flash? will the quality be good? cos i tried taking with another point and shoot, once i adjusted the ISO to higher level and without flash, the shutter speed is automatically adjusted slower (1/8, 1/10 for example), and any slight movement will blur the image.. i'm wondering if this is the same for prosumers? haven't really had a chance to try the fz50 and s9500/s9600 in these conditions... thanks all.

if u really want to know, u can go to dpreview. go to the review of the cameras, download unedited ISO 800 pictures, and go print them. thats the best way for u to decide