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Thread: how do i achieve behind blur and infront forcus??? without ps

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    Default how do i achieve behind blur and infront forcus??? without ps

    how do i do so??? the background is blur and the front is very forcus??? and is there a term for this effect?

  2. #2

    Default Re: how do i achieve behind blur and infront forcus??? without ps

    Depth of field. Open the aperature bigger to achieve the effect.

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    Moderator ortega's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do i achieve behind blur and infront forcus??? without ps

    actually there are a number of factors to consider

    1. Focal lenght of lens (the longer the focal lenght the less DOF you get)
    2. Aperture (the bigger the aperture (smaller f-stop) the less DOF you get)
    3. Subject to camera distance (the higher the magnification the less DOF)
    4. Subject to bg distance (the further the blurrer)
    5. lens used (some lenses have better bokeh than others)

    so for max. effect use all of the above

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    Default Re: how do i achieve behind blur and infront forcus??? without ps

    Quote Originally Posted by ortega View Post
    actually there are a number of factors to consider

    1. Focal lenght of lens (the longer the focal lenght the less DOF you get)
    2. Aperture (the bigger the aperture (smaller f-stop) the less DOF you get)
    3. Subject to camera distance (the higher the magnification the less DOF)
    4. Subject to bg distance (the further the blurrer)
    5. lens used (some lenses have better bokeh than others)

    so for max. effect use all of the above
    Wow. So complete. Thanks for sharing.

    In other words:

    Use tele lenses. For those using macro lenses - like 100mm macro. Even closing the aperature down to f8 can't get the whole dragonfly in focus. I was taught to use f16. Therefore in your case, open the aperture, f2.8 if possible. However, some lenses do not give a sharp image if the aperture is opened wide. So you have to find out about the lens as ortega has mentioned.

    Oh, btw, the blurring in the bg is called bokeh. Ppl always like a creamy bokeh. If there are lights in the bg, they will appear as round or octagonal bright spots on the screen. The number of sides that these round lights have depend on the number of blades you have in the lens.
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    Default Re: how do i achieve behind blur and infront forcus??? without ps

    My thanks to ortega for that simple, but insightful sharing.
    "A teacher is never late; he arrives precisely when he means to."

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    Default Re: how do i achieve behind blur and infront forcus??? without ps

    Quote Originally Posted by eng_keow View Post
    Oh, btw, the blurring in the bg is called bokeh.

    I think u hav misunderstood e term here. 'Bokeh' is not a term for blurring of BG but instead in simple term, it represents e degree of quality of e blur.

    Do correct me if I'm wrong...

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    Default Re: how do i achieve behind blur and infront forcus??? without ps

    Quote Originally Posted by hazta View Post
    I think u hav misunderstood e term here. 'Bokeh' is not a term for blurring of BG but instead in simple term, it represents e degree of quality of e blur.

    Do correct me if I'm wrong...

    There is no such word. I have never read such a word in books or magazine, except for here.
    Its more of a local photography slang.

    Correct me if I am wrong, then I must be reading all the "wrong" magazines/books.
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    Senior Member +evenstar's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do i achieve behind blur and infront forcus??? without ps

    Quote Originally Posted by bwilly View Post
    There is no such word. I have never read such a word in books or magazine, except for here.
    Its more of a local photography slang.

    Correct me if I am wrong, then I must be reading all the "wrong" magazines/books.
    overseas websites also use the word "bokeh iirc...
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    Senior Member G-man's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do i achieve behind blur and infront forcus??? without ps

    Bokeh comes from the Japanese word boké, which means blur.

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    Moderator ortega's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do i achieve behind blur and infront forcus??? without ps

    Quote Originally Posted by bwilly View Post
    There is no such word. I have never read such a word in books or magazine, except for here.
    Its more of a local photography slang.

    Correct me if I am wrong, then I must be reading all the "wrong" magazines/books.
    you are wrong

    see here

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    Default Re: how do i achieve behind blur and infront forcus??? without ps

    Quote Originally Posted by bwilly View Post
    There is no such word. I have never read such a word in books or magazine, except for here.
    Its more of a local photography slang.

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    Default Re: how do i achieve behind blur and infront forcus??? without ps

    Quote Originally Posted by bwilly View Post
    There is no such word. I have never read such a word in books or magazine, except for here.
    Its more of a local photography slang.

    Correct me if I am wrong, then I must be reading all the "wrong" magazines/books.
    There is such word as bokeh and it is not a local slang.

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    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do i achieve behind blur and infront forcus??? without ps

    Quote Originally Posted by hazta View Post
    I think u hav misunderstood e term here. 'Bokeh' is not a term for blurring of BG but instead in simple term, it represents e degree of quality of e blur.

    Do correct me if I'm wrong...
    em, i'm wasn't sure if bokeh can be applied to means just blurring because blur can mean so many things, it can mean motion blur too, handshake blur or out of focus. softness of a lens at extremes of lens aperture can sometimes add on to that perception of blurriness. even if it means just the degree of blurriness, as in how a single light source diffuse into a blob, i wonder if a picture that is all out of focus without a foreground subject in focus, can be called a picture with bokeh.

    sometimes jargons can help the same community communicate faster but can be alien to others and the newcomers. it helps to consolidate ideas and technique behind a concept.

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    Default Re: how do i achieve behind blur and infront forcus??? without ps

    Quote Originally Posted by zoossh View Post
    em, i'm wasn't sure if bokeh can be applied to means just blurring because blur can mean so many things, it can mean motion blur too, handshake blur or out of focus. softness of a lens at extremes of lens aperture can sometimes add on to that perception of blurriness. even if it means just the degree of blurriness, as in how a single light source diffuse into a blob, i wonder if a picture that is all out of focus without a foreground subject in focus, can be called a picture with bokeh.

    sometimes jargons can help the same community communicate faster but can be alien to others and the newcomers. it helps to consolidate ideas and technique behind a concept.

    Yeah agreed!

    However, if u read carefully, in my statement, (Bokeh' is not a term for blurring of BG but instead in simple term, it represents e degree of quality of e blur.), e last word "blur" here is complementing e former "blurring of BG".

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    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do i achieve behind blur and infront forcus??? without ps

    Quote Originally Posted by hazta View Post
    Yeah agreed!

    However, if u read carefully, in my statement, (Bokeh' is not a term for blurring of BG but instead in simple term, it represents e degree of quality of e blur.), e last word "blur" here is complementing e former "blurring of BG".
    i think it is the latter statement now that got me confused.

    so is this considered bokeh?



    it is done by deliberately manually off focus without nothing in focus.

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    Default Re: how do i achieve behind blur and infront forcus??? without ps

    Quote Originally Posted by zoossh View Post
    i think it is the latter statement now that got me confused.

    so is this considered bokeh?



    it is done by deliberately manually off focus without nothing in focus.
    No, as I said earlier 'Bokeh' in simple term is e degree of quality of a blur.

    Wat u hav here is a blur pic. If u hav 2 of e same kind of diz pix taken say for example w diff lens, u then can compare which lens produces a better 'bokeh' (meaning in much simpler term, more pleasing/smooth blur).

    R u still blur??? Juz kidding....
    Last edited by hazta; 2nd October 2006 at 07:29 AM.

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    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do i achieve behind blur and infront forcus??? without ps

    Quote Originally Posted by hazta View Post
    No, as I said earlier 'Bokeh' in simple term is e degree of quality of a blur.

    Wat u hav here is a blur pic. If u hav 2 of e same kind of diz pix taken say for example w diff lens, u then can compare which lens produces a better 'bokeh' (meaning in much simpler term, more pleasing/smooth blur).

    R u still blur??? Juz kidding....
    my question is still the same. do you need to have a subject in the foreground focused, such that the off focus background can be considered as having a degree of "bokeh"? if i manually focused at a focal plane (air) in front of the background objects, the entire picture will be blurred as above, but apart from not having a foreground subject in focus, it has bokeh and the bokeh is the same as having a subject in the foreground focused.

    if it sounds technically confusing, let's compare two situation.

    you put an apple 1m from you, and there is a tree 10m from you.
    you focus on the apple, the tree would help to achieve the effect of bokeh behind in contrast to the apple.

    now you take away the apple,
    and you focus at the empty place where the apple used to be at 1m away (manually), the tree would be in the same degree of blurriness as above. the background looks virtually blurred as there is nothing in the foreground, like what i show in the picture above. now do you use consider that this picture has achieved the effect of bokeh?

    if what i understand you so far, are you saying that bokeh is not the effect of blurriness created by juxtaposing appropriate relationship of the sensor, aperture, subject and background. it simply refers to the measurement of the degree of blurriness.

    so in short, like "long" and "length" are different terminologies used in different ways, you are saying it is wrong to describe bokeh as the effect of being blurred, but rather bokeh is simply the degree of blurriness, or the amount of penumbra created? did i understand you correctly?

  18. #18

    Default Re: how do i achieve behind blur and infront forcus??? without ps

    Quote Originally Posted by zoossh View Post
    my question is still the same. do you need to have a subject in the foreground focused, such that the off focus background can be considered as having a degree of "bokeh"? if i manually focused at a focal plane (air) in front of the background objects, the entire picture will be blurred as above, but apart from not having a foreground subject in focus, it has bokeh and the bokeh is the same as having a subject in the foreground focused.

    if it sounds technically confusing, let's compare two situation.

    you put an apple 1m from you, and there is a tree 10m from you.
    you focus on the apple, the tree would help to achieve the effect of bokeh behind in contrast to the apple.

    now you take away the apple,
    and you focus at the empty place where the apple used to be at 1m away (manually), the tree would be in the same degree of blurriness as above. the background looks virtually blurred as there is nothing in the foreground, like what i show in the picture above. now do you use consider that this picture has achieved the effect of bokeh?

    if what i understand you so far, are you saying that bokeh is not the effect of blurriness created by juxtaposing appropriate relationship of the sensor, aperture, subject and background. it simply refers to the measurement of the degree of blurriness.

    so in short, like "long" and "length" are different terminologies used in different ways, you are saying it is wrong to describe bokeh as the effect of being blurred, but rather bokeh is simply the degree of blurriness, or the amount of penumbra created? did i understand you correctly?
    you are getting there... but not quite. its not so much the measurement of the DEGREE of blurriness, but the QUALITY of blurriness.
    for example, if u take the canon 85mm 1.8... and compare to the 85 1.2... both will blur the background to more or less the same degree - say using the apple shot that u suggested.

    but, the quality of the 1.2's will be better. because the background assumes a dreamy, smooth almost painted on quality. another way people use to compare bokeh, is the kind of circles that you get from lights in the background... good bokeh is where the circle are very ROUND and the edges diffuse into the background. bad bokeh is where u can actually make out the no. of shutter blades, and theres a very defined edge.

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    Default Re: how do i achieve behind blur and infront forcus??? without ps

    Quote Originally Posted by zoossh View Post
    you put an apple 1m from you, and there is a tree 10m from you.
    you focus on the apple, the tree would help to achieve the effect of bokeh behind in contrast to the apple.

    now you take away the apple,
    and you focus at the empty place where the apple used to be at 1m away (manually), the tree would be in the same degree of blurriness as above. the background looks virtually blurred as there is nothing in the foreground, like what i show in the picture above. now do you use consider that this picture has achieved the effect of bokeh?
    Whether there is a focussed subject or not, n e BG looks blurred, there will b 'Bokeh'. I reiterate dat it is e quality of e blur.

    When there is a focussed subject with a blur BG, it helps our eyes see e subject in focussed more clearly. Diz blur is caused by shallow DOF. It has got nothin to do with 'Bokeh'.

    'Bokeh' is not talking abt DOF. It is a term used to describe how nice, smooth n pleasing a blur is.

  20. #20

    Default Re: how do i achieve behind blur and infront forcus??? without ps

    Not just the depth of field and the roundness of the aperture blades (not shutter) affects the bokeh. There is another important characteristics of the lens that affects the quality of bokeh is spherical abberation. This is the charactistic that Nikkor DC lens adjust to give you the perfect bokeh.
    Last edited by Scaglietti; 3rd October 2006 at 09:22 AM.

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