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Thread: Photographers Awareness on Laws

  1. #41

    Default Re: Photographers Awareness on Laws

    Well if you guys think that shooting downblouse, upskirts photos of women can be encouraged and showing pictures of women bending over showing half her breast, panties being exposed in closeup format should be encouraged to the young. I seriously question the morality of the photographers here.

    What happens if a group of young photographers learn from Drumma and go around shooting women unawared and call that art? When they are questioned by the women, they answered back and say we are a bunch of artists...we can do whatever we want.

    Ponder and think about it. Drumma, if you lied to others and shown them pictures other than the ones u have shown here. You better be pressurised and ozing blood from your nose.

    You cannot post pictures like what you have done and have titles like Voyeurism-Can I take a peek....and still sleep well thinking you are right, have done the correct thing and its art.

    Recap of what others thought after reading your original Message (from Email and Print screen)

    Yezrah has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - voyeurism.
    can i take a peep? - in the Portraits and Poses forum of ClubSNAP.

    This thread is located at:
    http://forums.clubsnap.com/showthrea...9&goto=newpost

    Here is the message that has just been posted:
    ***************
    Please stop whatever you are doing for this series. You are only trying to get
    yourself into trouble.
    ***************

    From Christ Lim:

    its a very very thin line btw artistic voyeur and pornographic voyeur. as Tuck
    loong has mentioned. I do have this sense of a slight holding back in
    appreciating this series. I look at it and i get mix feelings, though i have a
    very rough guess how this series came about. As much as i wanna see more.. i
    need to caution u bro. be very careful not to get in trouble k?

    I think its high time the moderator make a stand on this matter as well. For the rest of the photographers. Its up to you decide. If you think that its ok to shoot such pictures, I hope you dont run into serious problems in Singapore or any other parts of the world. For those who think its not correct. You can convey your concern and care to Drumma and the people who supports Drumma. Let them be aware of the seriousnes of the matter at hand.
    Last edited by Tuck Loong; 23rd September 2006 at 01:56 AM.

  2. #42
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Photographers Awareness on Laws

    Ah, just be clear, I am not endorsing nor condemning drumma's style of shooting - I'm just saying that you might be going about it the wrong way, and quoting the wrong laws.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Photographers Awareness on Laws

    in the interests of all photographers here I think the mods should allow drumma to post up that thread again so we can make a democratic decision on what we think about the photos.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Photographers Awareness on Laws

    haha. oh yes TL, i feel ur concern.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Photographers Awareness on Laws

    yeah, I want to see the offensive images

  6. #46

    Default Re: Photographers Awareness on Laws

    Once upon a time, a very misguided pope painted over countless nude statutes and paintings ... sounds familar here?

    Looks like the morality police from the nanny state is marching up and down this thread.

    I see nothing wrong with the pictures in questions. But of course, to the holier than thou brigade, anything that is tantilizing is going to be a ripe target.

    The sad thing is, the holier then thou brigage also call tehmselves photographers.
    Last edited by Deadpoet; 23rd September 2006 at 02:43 AM.
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  7. #47
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    Default Re: Photographers Awareness on Laws

    Finally, a moderator steps in....

    OK, I am not here to speak for the owners of this forum, aka the admins, about our stand on posting voyeuristic photos in CS. I will ping them to come and make a statement here.

    I want to clarify a few things:

    1. The moderators or admin did not remove the thread in question. According to the forum records I have access to, the TS, drumma, deleted the thread (titled "voyeurism. can i take a peep?") after Tuck Loong posted the quote from "UNDESIRABLE PUBLICATIONS ACT (CHAPTER 338)", which is similar to the originating post of this thread. I wonder why drumma did not bother to clarify this.

    2. As of this writing, the photos linked to by drumma, which resides on flickr.com in the account owned by drumma, are still there. Since they are posted on a public photo hosting website and are publicly accessible, you should be able to locate them on flickr.com, if you are interested.

    3. There is a possibility that the photos are staged instead of really taken without the knowledge of the subjects. I hope drumma can make a statement about that. If they are staged and the subjects are aware and in agreement of the photos, then this changes the situation entirely.

    Finally, to lighten the mood a little, I think DP should install Google toolbar and then use the spell check function for his posts. Just select the text you typed and then click on the spell check icon. The last time people commented on his spelling mistakes he tried to pull a fast one by saying "CS got no spell check feature".
    Last edited by roygoh; 23rd September 2006 at 03:13 AM.
    As complexity rises, precise statements lose meaning and meaningful statements lose precision.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Photographers Awareness on Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    Once upon a time, a very misguided pope painted over countless nude statutes and paintings ... sounds familar here?

    Looks like the morality police from the nanny state is marching up and down this thread.

    I see nothing wrong with the pictures in questions. But of course, to the holier than thou brigade, anything that is tantilizing is going to be a ripe target.

    The sad thing is, the holier then thou brigage also call tehmselves photographers.
    The point here is about how the pictures were taken - with or without the knowledge/consent of the subjects, and not so much about the contents.

    This is very different from artistic nude or even porn in general (where I believe there is consent from all parties involved in the production of such material). So your analogy is not really valid.

    While I agree to some extend with your advocation for "freedom of expression" I hope you do not advocate that a person should have the freedom to take upskirt pictures without the knowledge of the subjects and then share those pictures on the internet.
    Last edited by roygoh; 23rd September 2006 at 03:03 AM.
    As complexity rises, precise statements lose meaning and meaningful statements lose precision.

  9. #49

    Default Re: Photographers Awareness on Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuck Loong
    Well if you guys think that shooting downblouse, upskirts photos of women can be encouraged and showing pictures of women bending over showing half her breast, panties being exposed in closeup format should be encouraged to the young. I seriously question the morality of the photographers here.

    What happens if a group of young photographers learn from Drumma and go around shooting women unawared and call that art? When they are questioned by the women, they answered back and say we are a bunch of artists...we can do whatever we want.

    Ponder and think about it. Drumma, if you lied to others and shown them pictures other than the ones u have shown here. You better be pressurised and ozing blood from your nose.

    You cannot post pictures like what you have done and have titles like Voyeurism-Can I take a peek....and still sleep well thinking you are right, have done the correct thing and its art.

    Recap of what others thought after reading your original Message (from Email and Print screen)

    Yezrah has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - voyeurism.
    can i take a peep? - in the Portraits and Poses forum of ClubSNAP.

    This thread is located at:
    http://forums.clubsnap.com/showthrea...9&goto=newpost

    Here is the message that has just been posted:
    ***************
    Please stop whatever you are doing for this series. You are only trying to get
    yourself into trouble.
    ***************

    From Christ Lim:

    its a very very thin line btw artistic voyeur and pornographic voyeur. as Tuck
    loong has mentioned. I do have this sense of a slight holding back in
    appreciating this series. I look at it and i get mix feelings, though i have a
    very rough guess how this series came about. As much as i wanna see more.. i
    need to caution u bro. be very careful not to get in trouble k?

    I think its high time the moderator make a stand on this matter as well. For the rest of the photographers. Its up to you decide. If you think that its ok to shoot such pictures, I hope you dont run into serious problems in Singapore or any other parts of the world. For those who think its not correct. You can convey your concern and care to Drumma and the people who supports Drumma. Let them be aware of the seriousnes of the matter at hand.
    Thanks for pulling me into the picture. In the first place, how would you know its not staged or made to look like it was really voyeurism?

    Honestly, being an ex media student, having made controversial films and photographing controversial topics, i feel you are over reacting in an extremely bias and close minded manner. The mould hill is there. Go ahead and make it into an anthill. What is wrong with you? If you dun like what you see, then dun click on the link again after u see it the first time. Are you telling me you've never in your life seen anything close to or resembling an alternative art form based on another artist's impression and thoughts? How about porn? If you have then i feel maybe you ought to reconsider your views and words before you rant on about how others should adhear to your personal preferences. If you've got quirks with people posting stuff like that. i say bring on law enforcers and lets have a hear about what they have to say before anything continues. If you can't take the weight of having the MDA and all being on your back about your preferences and trying to teach people how to shoot their form of art. Then honestly, i'd recommend you to stop this bullock crap.

    i've said my mind on this. and to Drumma bro, as i've spoken to you before. Art based on your impressions on various subjective topics can be very tricky. But it doesnt mean you have to stop shooting and displaying your works. Just be a little tactful about it and show the world what you can do. I'm honestly looking forward to seeing your repost on your series again. Let me know when that happens. I'll be the first to give a to it.

    Cheers
    Chris Lim
    Last edited by Chris Lim; 23rd September 2006 at 03:07 AM.

  10. #50

    Default Re: Photographers Awareness on Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by roygoh
    The point here is about how the pictures were taken - with or without the knowledge/consent of the subjects, and not so much about the contents.

    This is very different from artistic nude or even porn in general (where I believe there is consent from all parties involved in the production of such material). So your analogy is not really valid.

    While I agree to some extend with your advocation for "freedom of expression" I hope you do not advocate that a person should have the freedom to take upskirt pictures without the knowledge of the subjects and then share those pictures on the internet.
    If you read my first post in this thread, I did say I don't care for the typical hide cam in bad up skirt pictures, becaue, the clandestine voyeur pictures are really not my cup of tea, and there is the issues of violating someone's rights to privacy.

    Back to Drumma pictures, have we established that 1, they were taken without knowledge or consent, and 2, that the pictures are sufficiently expilcit that they did intrude in someone's privacy? After seeing the pictures, I said no on both counts. Further more, are we going to advocating banning all street shootings? We can no long shoot anyone on the street?
    deadpoet
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  11. #51

    Default Re: Photographers Awareness on Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by roygoh
    Finally, to lighten the mood a little, I think DP should install Google toolbar and then use the spell check function for his posts. Just select the text you typed and then click on the spell check icon. The last time people commented on his spelling mistakes he tried to pull a fast one by saying "CS got no spell check feature".

    yeah yeah yeah ... what aer yuo tlaking abuot ... you sya my speling bad?

    deadpoet
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  12. #52
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    Default Re: Photographers Awareness on Laws

    Last post from me for today as I need to get back to work and you probably need to get back to sleep...

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    If you read my first post in this thread, I did say I don't care for the typical hide cam in bad up skirt pictures, becaue, the clandestine voyeur pictures are really not my cup of tea, and there is the issues of violating someone's rights to privacy.
    So we agree on this. Good, and I am glad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    Back to Drumma pictures, have we established that 1, they were taken without knowledge or consent,
    If you read my first post in this thread, I did bring that up as a pivoting point of this discussion. Chris Lim also brought that up, but I am the first to do so...hehe...

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    and 2, that the pictures are sufficiently expilcit that they did intrude in someone's privacy?
    If there is knowledge and consent from the subjects, then this becomes purely a question of censorship, in my opinion. Of course there might still be a question of morality, but that is beyond the scope of this discussion.

    If the pictures are taken and shared without the knowledge and consent of the subjects, then I believe the privacy law (if any) and/or society norm/expectation applies, and it is probably not focused entirely on how explicit the pictures are, if by that you are referring to how revealing they are of the subject's body.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    After seeing the pictures, I said no on both counts. Further more, are we going to advocating banning all street shootings? We can no long shoot anyone on the street?
    We cannot tell if the pictures are staged just by looking at them. Only drumma, the creator, knows.

    While they are not explicitly showing private parts, they do cross the boundary of "resosonable expectation of privacy" of the subjects, a phrase I picked up from some US based article discussing about privacy and the photographer's rights. That is very different from what I would classify as an "acceptable" form of street photography. Of course we are not advocating banning all street shootings. That's just too draconian right?

    So back to the original point. If those pictures are staged, then I personally see them as a form of artistic expression that I can accept. But even if that's the case, I would have requested drumma to state that fact explicitly in the post, in the hope that it would prevent misunderstandings and lengthy discussions like this one.

    If they are in deed taken and shared without the knowledge and consent of the subjects, I think you and I both agree that that is a no no.
    Last edited by roygoh; 23rd September 2006 at 03:54 AM.
    As complexity rises, precise statements lose meaning and meaningful statements lose precision.

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Photographers Awareness on Laws

    There is no right or wrong. Only fun and boring.

  14. #54

    Default Re: Photographers Awareness on Laws

    not that I am encouraging this sort of photography, but there are no privacy laws in Singapore (as people who have been following certain threads would be aware of...).

    Arguments on morality are fine and dandy but these opinions should not be forced on people using the law, if whatever act it is is within the boundaries of the law, unless the person has some extra-ordinary responsibility to society.

    Who decides what is "acceptable", especially in art?
    Our task is not just to create beautiful or meaningful photos but to explore and push the boundaries of the limits of our craft also.

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Photographers Awareness on Laws

    omg! okie. they aren't even offensive at all.

    to roygoh, yes, i deleted the thread. and i dunno why TL keeps saying the mod deleted it!
    secondly, it's staged to give viewer a sense of voyeurism! and i dunno why TL keeps thinking that i took those pictures without them knowing!!

    hello. those are my frens inside. and they know i took those. clear enough?

    man. i'm gonna add more explicit photos. :P

    enjoy and have a chill out weekend.

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Photographers Awareness on Laws

    This TL chap needs to really get out more often and broaden his mind.

    Perhaps he relies on spouting nanny-state slogans for a living, can't blame him now can we?

    Frankly, it all boils down to whether the photographer has done it legally or not.Being close-minded and perfunctory in assumption, the TS has just made himself seen like the archtypical Singaporean kiasee mentality (for civility's sake here) which we very much would love to eradicate.
    We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. - Oscar Wilde

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Photographers Awareness on Laws

    omg! they aren't even offensive at all.

    and i agree that taking pics of upskirts and blah, aren't my cup of tea as well. u can find these pics at few clicks on a button.
    to roygoh, yes, i deleted the thread. and i dunno why TL keeps saying the mod deleted it!
    secondly, it's staged to give viewer a sense of voyeurism!

    hello. those are my frens inside. and they know i took those.

    man. i'm gonna add more explicit photos. :P

    enjoy and have a chill out weekend.

  18. #58
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    Default Re: Photographers Awareness on Laws

    to add, i slept very well. thanks. my conscience is clear and i'll post these images once again when i'm done.

  19. #59

    Default Re: Photographers Awareness on Laws

    Yes. Glad you have clarified. You should post that series up again.

    Many photojournalists, lawyers, public prosecutors, and women activists who are Clubsnap members would definitely wanna see the followup of this series and discussion.

    It would be best to post them up again? So those people can make a sound judgement for themselves as well.

    And the admin should post a statement on this soon.

  20. #60

    Default Re: Photographers Awareness on Laws

    btw drumma I don't think your series is offensive enough yet, you need moe visual clues that recreate the exiciting visual sensation of voyuerism...the nearly there but not quite there feeling. like the slight butt crack or the hint of white panties of crossed legs....*turns red with excitement*

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