View Poll Results: Are there too many photographer-wannabe out there?

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  • Yes!! But only a handful can make it there!

    144 52.94%
  • No!! It happens in every trade!

    128 47.06%
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Thread: Too many photographer-wannabe out there!

  1. #141
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    Default Re: Too many photographer-wannabe out there!

    Wannabes will be there in every trade, therefore, it is a must that we live with it, cause wannabes will be there no matter what. Society has evolved into a state where aspirations are reagrded as purposes in life, but most people, in pursuit of an ideal that they aspire to be, become wannabes, and idolise, instead of learning and discerning what is right and wrong.

    That's my take on wannabes.

    But anyone out there knows what it takes to become a wannabe? Or what is a wannabe to them in the first place? These are the questions that one should identify with first before starting this thread, to put in place a universal idea of what is a wannabe, cause a wannabe might mean different things to different people.

    Those that manage to discern what is right and what is wrong instead of just listening to a source and jumping to conclusions would make it far in this world (not just in photography).

  2. #142

    Default Re: Too many photographer-wannabe out there!

    Quote Originally Posted by surge View Post
    most of the time money goes to those who are persistant and fight for what they want. not neccessary they are the best.

    talent, brain, education etc is nothing without persistance.

    sometimes you see really poorly done wedding albums and you think like that also can make it ah....yet these ppl are making a living out of it. so again...talent is NOTHING without hardwork.
    The second you tread into the realm of competitive business, reality defies logic. Case in point - we have a videographer who has been in the business for 20+ years. When I got married 10 years ago, we had him as our videographer and 8 years later when I began shooting professionally, I shot with the same videographer who today is still being hired by many families. His work is old school and in spite of newer updated equipment, the result is still pretty much old school. We have a handful of videographers who produce excellent post processing work and present them in professionally packaged DVDs but obviously there aren't enough of these folks to fulfill the needs of every wedding clients. To backup poster's comment, this videographer works very hard and people like him because of the wealth of experience he's got. Also, what has kept demand up for his services is that he's also affordable.

  3. #143

    Default Re: Too many photographer-wannabe out there!

    There's also alot of model-wannabes out there too...
    I am NOT a PROfessional photographer and photography is NOT my hobby

  4. #144

    Default Re: Too many photographer-wannabe out there!

    Quote Originally Posted by shooter View Post
    Don't you agree??!!

    Every1 thought owning a dslr can make u an instant photographer!! How true is that!!
    actually i think u are too mean ..
    everyone have their own dream or hobby.

    Its just llike there are people who are learning singing just to become the next Stephanie Sun. but, later they will find out in time that they have their own unique vocal or talent.

    its the same in photography, everyone have a different perception about how they view a subject. what u do not like, might be another person cup of tea. That is y we have Arts..

    let us all grow together.. remember that Rome wasn't built in just a day

    hope u do not find this offending

  5. #145

    Default Re: Too many photographer-wannabe out there!

    Quote Originally Posted by raincool2005 View Post
    yes.. too many and that why prices for wedding shoots kept going down.

    Morever, job security is weak in today's economy. Therefore, many are picking up hoping to master a money earning trade. However, Singapore is a small market.. Europe or USA is a better choice.
    Aww.. Brunei has only 380,000 or so population. We've never had critical mass for anything to succeed, photography is no exception. We have a WPJA photographer is an associate of mine in this tiny market and he's very popular among malay couples for his critical eye, journalistic images and post processing techniques. You may check out his site and see what I mean .. since I began experiencing FTP problems with my host in USA I cancelled my site but retain the URL www.janshim.com for future developments and is currently hosted on his host for the time being.

  6. #146
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    Default Re: Too many photographer-wannabe out there!

    Quote Originally Posted by Canonised View Post
    ah boy..... anyone, including the best professional (and wannabe like yrself) must not only eat humble pie but also must appreciate them ....
    It will help you in yr social life.

    *Shrug* And what makes you think I'm suffering in my social life?. Do not assume you know alot about me Canonised. From what I take from your PMs, it seems that you already came to the conclusion what I am. That is, if I even bother to read them.

    Anyway, most of the people I know who work professionally in photography are nice people and they don't boast , but it doesn't mean they lick other's boots under the 'pretext of humble pie' or 'learning from somebody'.

    I reckon if one has to do that, he/she might just as well kick the bucket cause everybody else is doing it.

    As in with all occupations in life, one has to develop his/her own unique workmanship, and that could only be derived from self discovery and drive. It's called being entreprising. They observe, and take note and come out with ideas, and ask questions to formulate them. Alot of times my friends have to come out with new ideas that nobody else ever taught them.

    'Eat humble pie and pay attentions to the sifus?' What sifus?!They won't know how to tell you what to do in the first place!?

    Very different from the open mouth, spoon in concept as my detractor was subscribing.

    Well, it's a hard living , and frankly what occupation is ever a walk in the park anyway!
    Last edited by Wisp; 27th December 2006 at 09:28 PM.

  7. #147

    Default Professional vs Master Photographer

    Quote Originally Posted by CreaXion View Post
    I disagree that paid photographers are being termed as professional. I have seen many photos of these "professionals" and they sux. A hobbyist can also be a professional if the standard is there in my humble opinion.
    The Oxford definition:

    professional
    adj.
    1 of, relating to, or belonging to a profession. worthy of or appropriate to a professional person.
    2 engaged in an activity as a paid occupation rather than as an amateur.


    A professional photographer is one who gets paid for his photography services and one who carries out his job with professional conduct. A hobbyist or amateur cannot be called professional but he can be reffered to someone who exhibits professional conduct. You may have confused the term professional with master photographer, someone who holds credentials from an institute or professional organization and is qualified to teach photography.

    If a master photographer who is a hobbyist, gets his income from teaching students in a classroom but does not shoot professionally this is straightforward, he's a Master Photographer. But, what if he does, is he then called Professional Master Photographer? Hmmm.

  8. #148

    Default Re: Professional vs Master Photographer

    Quote Originally Posted by janshim View Post
    The Oxford definition:

    professional
    adj.
    1 of, relating to, or belonging to a profession. worthy of or appropriate to a professional person.
    2 engaged in an activity as a paid occupation rather than as an amateur.


    A professional photographer is one who gets paid for his photography services and one who carries out his job with professional conduct. A hobbyist or amateur cannot be called professional but he can be reffered to someone who exhibits professional conduct. You may have confused the term professional with master photographer, someone who holds credentials from an institute or professional organization and is qualified to teach photography.

    If a master photographer who is a hobbyist, gets his income from teaching students in a classroom but does not shoot professionally this is straightforward, he's a Master Photographer. But, what if he does, is he then called Professional Master Photographer? Hmmm.
    omg. does it matter what status a photog is considered as ? I wonder if someday a photog mmorpg starts out or sth. Can start leveling by taking photos.
    shadistic@deviantArt

  9. #149

    Default Re: Too many photographer-wannabe out there!

    Now I got a problem. I never done wedding before and I wannabe wedding photographer and I might charge only S$300 or lesser....

    So how? Can I go ahead?

  10. #150

    Default Start Low, Stuck Low !

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobman View Post
    Now I got a problem. I never done wedding before and I wannabe wedding photographer and I might charge only S$300 or lesser....

    So how? Can I go ahead?
    When I shot my first wedding, I did it FREE and made sure I did my best. Shocked? I may be new to photography business then but I'm certainly not new when it comes to running a business. My argument is that when you have nothing to show, you have nothing to lose and so I decided not to put a figure on the shoot. My argument was that I would have plenty of opportunity to establish a figure for a pro shoot once I had proven my worth and indeed as things turned out, my first paid wedding was a referral from this couple. There was prior agreement between us that the rate would not be revealed to anyone so I would not be stuck at a low figure. It's very hard explaining why you were able to produce wedding photos for $300 for their friend when you are asking $1200-$1800 for the same package.

    The community is really quite small when it comes to these things. When you conduct yourself professionally, your rates become secondary. I'm not saying you should do it FOC, I did it my way and decided FREE was the way to go for me and it paid off. All I needed was one wedding portfolio to showcase my work so what's a 12 hour investment that gave you back so much? Though today we are able to charge more, we also commit ourselves to longer and harder working hours and a typical Chinese wedding shoot is 16 hours!

  11. #151

    Default Re: Start Low, Stuck Low !

    Quote Originally Posted by janshim View Post
    When I shot my first wedding, I did it FREE and made sure I did my best. Shocked? I may be new to photography business then but I'm certainly not new when it comes to running a business. My argument is that when you have nothing to show, you have nothing to lose and so I decided not to put a figure on the shoot. My argument was that I would have plenty of opportunity to establish a figure for a pro shoot once I had proven my worth and indeed as things turned out, my first paid wedding was a referral from this couple. There was prior agreement between us that the rate would not be revealed to anyone so I would not be stuck at a low figure. It's very hard explaining why you were able to produce wedding photos for $300 for their friend when you are asking $1200-$1800 for the same package.

    The community is really quite small when it comes to these things. When you conduct yourself professionally, your rates become secondary. I'm not saying you should do it FOC, I did it my way and decided FREE was the way to go for me and it paid off. All I needed was one wedding portfolio to showcase my work so what's a 12 hour investment that gave you back so much? Though today we are able to charge more, we also commit ourselves to longer and harder working hours and a typical Chinese wedding shoot is 16 hours!
    Ya, wannabe like me do not have any portfolios to show. So I may do for FOC or with small fee, but then again wannabe like me will be labed spoiling the market.

    If I match those pro prices, I believe I can't get any job at all, right? Then where can wananbe like me survive in this field? But then again, I believe that the pro need not have to fear cause the quality of standards are different.

    It is the choice of the wedding couples to choose within their budget and confidence. If they trust that I could do a good job, then its their gain. But if I did a bad job, they have themselves to blame for engaging wannabe like me.

    I believe many wannabes like me would like to earn a decent living and why not the pro giving us some motivations instead of slamming us being market spoilers? Although Singapore is small but I believe there are many weddings every year, how much enough is enough and how many jobs can we wannabes take?

  12. #152

    Thumbs up Re: Start Low, Stuck Low !

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobman View Post
    Ya, wannabe like me do not have any portfolios to show. So I may do for FOC or with small fee, but then again wannabe like me will be labed spoiling the market.

    If I match those pro prices, I believe I can't get any job at all, right? Then where can wananbe like me survive in this field? But then again, I believe that the pro need not have to fear cause the quality of standards are different.

    It is the choice of the wedding couples to choose within their budget and confidence. If they trust that I could do a good job, then its their gain. But if I did a bad job, they have themselves to blame for engaging wannabe like me.

    I believe many wannabes like me would like to earn a decent living and why not the pro giving us some motivations instead of slamming us being market spoilers? Although Singapore is small but I believe there are many weddings every year, how much enough is enough and how many jobs can we wannabes take?
    I prefer if you label yourself an aspiring professional (AP) than "wannabe." I don't dismiss or underestimate the potential of an AP to realise his/her goals someday. Every pro was once an AP and I certainly am no different. We take good photos, create great memories and also make disastrous mistakes. Nevermind what others think or say as long you really want a shot at the opportunity (no pun intended). My worse moments in this business did not come from paying clients but from ungrateful relatives. The upside is that I'll no longer be considered for future weddings in the family and that's a good thing!

    Behavioural science will reveal that it's perfectly normal human behaviour to feel and react defensively when their livelihood is threatened. Nothing you can do about that. You're right about one thing - there are many weddings in a year and there's perhaps plenty for everyone (benefit of a doubt but doesn't hurt to remain optimistic). I wish you all the best!

  13. #153
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    Default Re: Too many photographer-wannabe out there!

    i wannabe a photographer ... how shall i start?

    Quote Originally Posted by shooter View Post
    Don't you agree??!!

    Every1 thought owning a dslr can make u an instant photographer!! How true is that!!

  14. #154

    Default Re: Start Low, Stuck Low !

    Quote Originally Posted by janshim View Post
    I prefer if you label yourself an aspiring professional (AP) than "wannabe." I don't dismiss or underestimate the potential of an AP to realise his/her goals someday. Every pro was once an AP and I certainly am no different. We take good photos, create great memories and also make disastrous mistakes. Nevermind what others think or say as long you really want a shot at the opportunity (no pun intended). My worse moments in this business did not come from paying clients but from ungrateful relatives. The upside is that I'll no longer be considered for future weddings in the family and that's a good thing!

    Behavioural science will reveal that it's perfectly normal human behaviour to feel and react defensively when their livelihood is threatened. Nothing you can do about that. You're right about one thing - there are many weddings in a year and there's perhaps plenty for everyone (benefit of a doubt but doesn't hurt to remain optimistic). I wish you all the best!

    Thank you for your support....hmmmm I think I am going to offer some TFCD for Pre-wedding liaoz

  15. #155
    Senior Member dominator's Avatar
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    Default Re: Too many photographer-wannabe out there!

    How do i Stop it????????

    I am not a pro but whenever I bring my tiny DSLR, People will say "WAH PRO"!!!!

    I think use my PnS better
    Cleanse your thoughts, not by the foods you eat.

  16. #156

    Default Re: Too many photographer-wannabe out there!

    Quote Originally Posted by dominator View Post
    How do i Stop it????????

    I am not a pro but whenever I bring my tiny DSLR, People will say "WAH PRO"!!!!

    I think use my PnS better
    never mind lah. pro sounds nice what. get some recognition better than nothing.

  17. #157

    Default The other end of the pro spectrum

    Quote Originally Posted by vernonleow View Post
    The REAL problem is Pros who are killing the industry by under charging to land a job. This results in jobs going to the cheapest guy and the market suffers. Quality stagnates as there is less incentive to compete by improving one's quality of photos. Only the dedicated ones who know that it is a life-long learning process and do it with passion.
    It's often true that in photography, where money is gained, passion is lost. As an entrepreneur, I am passionate about being a professional photographer and the learning curve that lies ahead in this trade. There's so much more to take just as much as there is to give but I've discovered the dark side just after two years of being in demand in this micro market -- I got burnt out on a number of occasions. Burnt out from exhausting commutes, back to back shoots and late night post processing only to rush out for another job the next morning. I found myself going through episodes of "This business is so right yet at times it feels so wrong and depressing" sigh!

    The other end of pro spectrum where our work finishes, is the mini lab operators. I don't know how many lab owners in Singapore also provides photography services. Over here most do and because there are seasoned operators and have been in the trade for a long time, they can get nasty when it comes to protecting their turf. These days 4R prints cost just B$0.25-0.20 each (S$=B$) and there's little or no leverage now for professionals to make extra money from printing. It's come to the a stage where labs can no longer lower their cost for the professional because the printing market is deep s**t. Because of this, I work closely with a Kodak digital lab (Noritsu 3201) and allow them to attach their promo along with my wedding or event prints so clients go to them for reprints. It's interesting to see which lab will survive the long term effects of this insane price cutting. High shop rentals, high cost of minilab parts, costs of consummables etc ... seeing the situation, I remain grateful to be a Freelance Pro.

  18. #158

    Default Re: Too many photographer-wannabe out there!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wisp View Post
    *Shrug* And what makes you think I'm suffering in my social life?.
    If you are, in your own words, "Trying to be metro ", then you are either a fake or suffering in your social life ....
    What have i done to you that you are always targeting me in your comments?.... is there anything you are not happy with what i said in the past? Do pm me so that i can clarify with you. Ah boy, you need to grow up ...
    always the Light, .... always.

  19. #159
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    Default Re: Too many photographer-wannabe out there!

    Quote Originally Posted by Canonised View Post
    If you are, in your own words, "Trying to be metro ", then you are either a fake or suffering in your social life ....
    What have i done to you that you are always targeting me in your comments?.... is there anything you are not happy with what i said in the past? Do pm me so that i can clarify with you. Ah boy, you need to grow up ...


    Hwrm...just for curiosity..do you have any idea what is metro? Your statement does leave me puzzling what abit. Why, on all things, would I try to be metro when I'm straight?

    On another point, you on the other hand, give an impression that you take any gist with the majority without developing a stand on opinions on your own. And sometimes a number of us get the idea you aren't serious about helping anybody when you post a totally out of point post on somebody's thread asking for help.

    Note this is not all the time, or most of the time, but it happens a heck lot for some of us to notice.

    Well, I have nothing against you, but oftenyour commentry drives a person's thread OT or seem totally meaningless and helpless. What I have is against your comments, not you as a person . I have no idea who you are as a person anyway.

    If I really had something against you I would have basically replied to all your comments isn't it?

    And before you refer me to 'ah boy' and whether I need to grow up, do remember I haven't said anything dubious of your character or you yet. I just have something against your comments.

  20. #160

    Default Re: Start Low, Stuck Low !

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobman View Post
    Ya, wannabe like me do not have any portfolios to show. So I may do for FOC or with small fee, but then again wannabe like me will be labed spoiling the market.

    If I match those pro prices, I believe I can't get any job at all, right? Then where can wananbe like me survive in this field? But then again, I believe that the pro need not have to fear cause the quality of standards are different.

    It is the choice of the wedding couples to choose within their budget and confidence. If they trust that I could do a good job, then its their gain. But if I did a bad job, they have themselves to blame for engaging wannabe like me.

    I believe many wannabes like me would like to earn a decent living and why not the pro giving us some motivations instead of slamming us being market spoilers? Although Singapore is small but I believe there are many weddings every year, how much enough is enough and how many jobs can we wannabes take?
    Yes we all have to start somewhere. I am totally supportive of guys like you who are aspiring to make a living out of photography. No choice have to start low since no impressive portfolio to show.

    What I am really pissed about are seasoned photographers (calling them pro is an insult because they don't behave professionally) who undercut other pros just to land the job (you know who you are!). People like this are killing the industry!

    So Bobman, I wish you all the best in your journey. It will be tough. It will be rough. But most importantly, enjoy every minute of it, good and bad. And the support of this community is only a few clicks away!

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