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Thread: IMF World Bank Brief - My take on Photography scene in Singapore.

  1. #101

    Default Re: IMF World Bank Brief - My take on Photography scene in Singapore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikonnew

    Sponsor is just a more expensive name for advertisers, so learn to live with it. As a sponsor, I definitely do not want to pay and then having my comprtitor's brand appear and get a free ride? The objective is still to shoot good pictures, but the sponsors have to get some mileage out of their money. So just drop the Arts stuff, this is business......
    if we just accept such logic, and let them do anything, then it'll be a sad world. I'm glad that people in other countries make noise about corporate responsibility. why do you think Body Shop and Starbucks make it a big point to say they don't exploit labour, and Nike sometimes gets such heat for where it manufactures it's stuff

    A company that sells products that is associated with the production of art should be more sensitive.
    But this sounds more like the "bright" idea of some local marketing person here, rather than the ethos of the company itself.
    Fuji has a good reputation supporting photographers in japan

  2. #102

    Default Re: IMF World Bank Brief - My take on Photography scene in Singapore.

    Some people brought up the issue of photographers "donating" their time and skill to cover various charity events and stuff for free. However, remember that one needs to draw the line somewhere. What would you say to someone offering "experience and a chance of a lifetime" opportunity to shoot a magazine cover for free? Almost everyone would cry "exploitation!"

    Now for the issue at hand. Having taken over the rights to your photos, how would you know that they won't be used for commercial purposes like selling to news organisations? And if they are really serious about it being a learning experience, why prevent the photographers from at least keeping a copy of their OWN work for review and for the portfolio? Having signed over the rights of the photos to them should already ensure them free reign over how they choose to use them.

  3. #103

    Default Re: IMF World Bank Brief - My take on Photography scene in Singapore.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattlock
    did you say that as a jibe at me?heheheheh.
    you know, with so many issues relating to the photography industry it sounds like we need some sort of union for photographers here
    the dog-eat-dog market is just really unhealthy
    No it wasn't a jibe. The petition did bring about some closure and attention. Although I would have done it slightly differently, I think it needed to be done.

    I can think many scenarios when it can be worse - like people asking organizer what is the lowest quote tendered and then offered to do it for less.

    Tell you a funny story a friend shared with me recently: there is a group working on a big project on slavery and they had a party. after everyone left, the unpaid interns had to stay behind to clean up the mess. Now that to me is exploitation.

    My first preference is always to let an organizer know that I am upset about something before kicking up a big fuss online, which often time get sidetracked. In forums, it is always like this: one guy hears a rumor, two guys say they also heard, another say he can confirm, from that point onward, it is a FACT. Don't believe, just go to page one of this thread and read.

    And before you know, you may be originally right, but bec of all the OTs and misunderstanding, you end up being less right.

    Unionizing will yield its own problems. I am more for dialogue.

  4. #104

    Default Re: IMF World Bank Brief - My take on Photography scene in Singapore.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattlock
    I would like to add another point
    Especially prevalent in Singapore (Asia too perhaps) is this lack of long-term care for the professional community
    Since digital photography has become much cheaper and more prevalent, more and more people are assuming that photography is cheap. This is partly due to people offering free services or undercutting others. Each job that some photographer offers for free or cheaper than is sustainable due to his passion is just adding to the impression that photography is cheap and isn't worth paying for.
    I think that even though shooting an event like this may give you some "experience", it hurts the photographic community here in Singapore for the reasons mentioned above.

    I don't get it, people don't ask chefs to cook for them for free, and are willing to pay good money for quality.

    very well expressed

  5. #105

    Default Re: IMF World Bank Brief - My take on Photography scene in Singapore.

    stratix, you are making a mountain out of a molehill. no matter what brand of camera, the art remains.

  6. #106

    Default Re: IMF World Bank Brief - My take on Photography scene in Singapore.

    I just received a rather detailed letter from Mr James Soh regarding this discussion and I thought it is only right that I shared some of the facts I gotten from him.

    - the allowance of $50 per day is inaccurate.
    - the copyright stand came from a IMF/World Bank directive, NYAA is working very hard to get them to make some exceptions. the final say has to come from Washington DC.
    - the brand issue only pertains to volunteers who agree to be on the team.
    - NYAA is working hard to get authorities to agree to let volunteers to use images for portfolio
    - there is a seed money from MAS to publish something for the volunteers at a much later date
    - all the volunteers involved were given a choice to opt out if they still felt uncomfortable
    these were the exact words of Mr Soh: If you feel uncomfortable or that you are being exploited, I would encourage you to withdraw from the project and we will not be offended.

    Mr Soh also told me that ALL the photographers invited have restated their desire to volunteer after his letter and offer to let them opt out.

    It is not within my rights to post the NYAA letter here. I think if you are still concerned, perhaps you should track down one of the guys invited for it.
    Last edited by kaychin; 30th August 2006 at 06:49 PM.

  7. #107

    Default Re: IMF World Bank Brief - My take on Photography scene in Singapore.

    Now for my personal take of this:

    I don't believe the IMF/World Bank meeting cannot go on without this NYAA photo team. Why then does it exist? Because some people believe that it is a good chance for young people to experience a mega event. Perhaps some (please note I say some, not all) Singaporeans no longer think that it is such a big deal to experience such things. Perhaps some CS photographers have done bigger projects before so this sounds like kiddies' game.

    But try to spare a thought of those who otherwise don't have this opportunity. Put aside your own opinion about IMF/World Bank politics, it is an experience worth experiencing?

    I ask myself this: if i were 18 or 21 or even 23, and trying to learn the business of photography, will I do it? I am quite sure it is YES. Similarly, if you ask me whether I would be a ball picker at Wimbledon finals but I won't be paid, I would always say YES.

    Let me just be blunt about this: if at this last hour, NYAA is still allowing people to drop out, you think the participation of the volunteers is totally essential? As far as I know, there was no plan to replace those who dropped out.

    In my opinion, if you are one of the 38, go and enjoy yourself and see if there's anything you can pick up for yourself. For a start, there are many real professionals at such event who will be happy to chitchat with you (Yes, many will be using Canons). With some luck, you can also get further job offers (that pays better than NYAA). All things failed, beautiful women in nice business suits are very attractive too. Mr Soh didn't say you can't do any of the above right?

    As for those who are advocating that you go to Batam to experience real actions, go lor.
    Last edited by kaychin; 30th August 2006 at 06:58 PM.

  8. #108
    Senior Member redstone's Avatar
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    Default Re: IMF World Bank Brief - My take on Photography scene in Singapore.

    Entire IMF event banning non Fuji/Nikon cameras?

    It's IMF!!! Not some 'small' event. An international event! Sigh...

    The amount is too little. And no keeping of images allowed? Double exploitation I think.

  9. #109

    Default Re: IMF World Bank Brief - My take on Photography scene in Singapore.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattlock
    if we just accept such logic, and let them do anything, then it'll be a sad world. I'm glad that people in other countries make noise about corporate responsibility. why do you think Body Shop and Starbucks make it a big point to say they don't exploit labour, and Nike sometimes gets such heat for where it manufactures it's stuff

    A company that sells products that is associated with the production of art should be more sensitive.
    But this sounds more like the "bright" idea of some local marketing person here, rather than the ethos of the company itself.
    Fuji has a good reputation supporting photographers in japan

    I would like to suggest that not all photography are Art, per se, this is coverage of an event, it's just capturing moments. and the true fact is , Nikon is a Sponsor........period. It is perhaps wrong in the spirit of the "Art", but in the spirit of business.......it's another different story. Nikon , being a sponsor, is bringing the event to the public, this act itself is being responsible to the society. but do they do it for free?......a guess it would be nice if they can gain some mileage from it.....

    ps - I am not a Nikon employee

  10. #110
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    Default Re: IMF World Bank Brief - My take on Photography scene in Singapore.

    received any updates regarding the trial run yet anybody?

  11. #111

    Default Re: IMF World Bank Brief - My take on Photography scene in Singapore.

    Quote Originally Posted by slwong
    hahaha it the same thing, if you purchase McDonald BigMAc, and walk into Burger King premise and sit down and eat, will it be allow?

    just my 2 cents
    ya lah, exactly.
    this is not hawker centre can order anything and sit anywhere.. you know..

  12. #112

    Default Re: IMF World Bank Brief - My take on Photography scene in Singapore.

    was at the IMF over the week.
    Saw a Fuji booth selling photos to the delegates for $20 to $100 per piece.
    They choose from a photo booth terminal.

    Not sure where the $ will go to.


    .

  13. #113

    Default Re: IMF World Bank Brief - My take on Photography scene in Singapore.

    Quote Originally Posted by AReality
    was at the IMF over the week.
    Saw a Fuji booth selling photos to the delegates for $20 to $100 per piece.
    They choose from a photo booth terminal.

    Not sure where the $ will go to.


    .
    Definitely for their own profit as a private company and to cover the costs of the viewing stations and staff.
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  14. #114
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    Default Re: IMF World Bank Brief - My take on Photography scene in Singapore.

    Quote Originally Posted by AReality
    was at the IMF over the week.
    Saw a Fuji booth selling photos to the delegates for $20 to $100 per piece.
    They choose from a photo booth terminal.

    Not sure where the $ will go to.


    .
    definitely will be going back to fuji,since machine is theirs.
    Just want to know who shoot those pics.

  15. #115

    Default Re: IMF World Bank Brief - My take on Photography scene in Singapore.

    The fault does not seem to be on the NYAA here. They probably thought that the regulations such as no other bands for the student photographers is ridiculous so they tried to get some sort of compromise from the main organisers. They have also made it clear to the student photographers about the loss of rights of photos and have confirmed their participation. As with exploitation, in a capitalistic world, there will always be some form of competition to get the cheapest price and highest quality. Its fine as there are people who offer their services at low rates in full knowledge of what they are doing. It becomes exploitation when they do it under false information or unclear knowledge of what they are doing. Maybe they wanted to advertise it later as involving students to showcase community involvement in a small way? As with the advertising it under great gain in experience, its probably part of advertising gimmicks. As with capitalism there WILL be false advertisment(not false information but overpromoting using very emotive language). It is up to you to discern the truth from the facade. From the advertisment of gaining experience and the rules of not allowing you to keep your photos, you can probably conclude that a disclaimer should have been put up (Remember that you cannot keep your photos, all your photos will have to be uploaded to our servers, you have signed a form that surrenders your rights over the photos to us, thus since you cannot even review your photos, you might not gain that much of experience in composing your shots but some idea of what a mega event is like, then again you can just sit in the meetings to see whats it like anyway.).

    Looking at it again, there are people who are willing to give up their shutter count for free and services for free and are even willing to surrender rights over their photos in order to even participate in such an event. This then comes to the idea of relative value. To some, participation in such events are so valuable in their worth that they are willing to go through such extents to participate. Others might find is not useful in anyway since very they feel that they can earn more elsewhere and learn more shooting other things. Relative value. I personally feel that unless corruption can be solved in the countries at hand, the IMF/World Bank will not be successful in their objectives no matter how good-intended or not it is. Therefore I feel that the IMF is useless at this point of time and thus such events are of little relative value to me and I would not participate in it at all.

    Again it is important to remember how exploitation comes about and how some people find it very useful to them and how some do not. I am not trying to say anything against you guys who have debated over this problem thus far. I am trying to give my stand point in a neutral as possible way and try to make some light.
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  16. #116
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    Default Re: IMF World Bank Brief - My take on Photography scene in Singapore.

    My stand:

    Why is everything some of you photographers think about is MONEY? If you are looking for money, go elsewhere, the business field maybe? Photography is my passion, OUR passion.

    Through this event, I've learnt many things. I wouldn't say this is my first time participating in a major event, but still, through every event, I learn something new. Life is a life long learning process!

    How many of you actually have a chance to shoot a VIP, Face to Face (not while trying to get a shot during an event, but to talk to him/her in the most respected manner)? How are you supposed to communicate with him/her. What tone to use, how should u dress, how should you uphold your image and the name of the Organisation you are representing?

    Through this, I learnt not only how to become technically better (as we have totally no time to do detailed photo editing, its more or less straight out of the camera), Iíve learnt how to develop 'soft skills', Interpersonal skills. Being a photographer, is not all about producing excellent images, its about how you develop relationships with clients, with the models and with organisers. Create a good image of yourself and people will remember you.

    "O that photographer, yeaÖ I totally enjoyed working with him, not only did he get his work done, I had an enjoyable experience with him, how polite and thoughtful he was, how he joked with us"

    Not, "o that photographer, man he dresses so shabbily, i wonder if he even know how to make himself look good, if he cant even make himself look good, much less make me look good on photo, not to mention his stupid attitude". The worst you can get is to leave such an ugly impression that the whole photographic community tries to avoid you.

    How many of you have actually learnt to "fight" with the press for shots? You try to squeeze your way in to get the shot you are looking for, no doubt you may push one another for shots, but at the end of the day, the photographers be it the press or the official photographers, we still acknowledge each other by just smiling at one another when we meet.

    We learn how to adapt to a situation, if there are too little personnel in the event, but way too many photographers, we use a tag in tag out system. Basically, we keep the photographers to a minimum in the room. We try to be as discreet as possible to avoid attracting too much attention and irritating the guest your client wants you to shoot.

    Being a photographer, you are not trying a attract attention but to be as stealthy as possible, be invisible. Respect your client respect their guest. This way, you gain respect from your client.

    Not to mention the strong bonds we foster with one another, we learnt from one another continually. We are all learning. Be it inexperienced or experienced, I do not believe that there is nothing you can learn from a less experienced photographer. Maybe he will have a different viewpoint, that you can learn?

    We also struggle to get our assignments done on time and deliver in quality work. How we help one another overcome our difficulties. How we ended up as close brothers and sisters. Maybe we will even form a community of young photographers!

    The most important lesson I learnt. Being Humble.

    No doubt, you may be more experienced than the other photographer, you may be better equipped, you may know how to react in difficult situations, you must remember, ITíS A TEAM EFFORT.

    I have totally no regrets being at the computer arranging the appointments for one day, renaming the files and preparing them for print. Mind you, I was at the computer for one whole day. I didnít fire a single shot.

    Now looking back, I miss shooting alongside my team of NYAA photographers, I miss the long hours in our little 5x2m room, a room we call our headquarters, where we dispatch our photographers to different locations. This is the place where we laugh together, where we give each other a boost, when the person himself/herself is mentally and physically exhausted, where we shared happy moments and down moments. Iíve gotten emotionally attached to the place and my team.

    If there is any chance that I can get to work with this group of NYAA photographers again, I will not hesitate to say YES.

  17. #117

    Default Re: IMF World Bank Brief - My take on Photography scene in Singapore.

    Quote Originally Posted by tropica_aloysius
    My stand:

    Why is everything some of you photographers think about is MONEY? If you are looking for money, go elsewhere, the business field maybe? Photography is my passion, OUR passion.

    Through this event, I've learnt many things. I wouldn't say this is my first time participating in a major event, but still, through every event, I learn something new. Life is a life long learning process!

    How many of you actually have a chance to shoot a VIP, Face to Face (not while trying to get a shot during an event, but to talk to him/her in the most respected manner)? How are you supposed to communicate with him/her. What tone to use, how should u dress, how should you uphold your image and the name of the Organisation you are representing?

    Through this, I learnt not only how to become technically better (as we have totally no time to do detailed photo editing, its more or less straight out of the camera), Iíve learnt how to develop 'soft skills', Interpersonal skills. Being a photographer, is not all about producing excellent images, its about how you develop relationships with clients, with the models and with organisers. Create a good image of yourself and people will remember you.

    "O that photographer, yeaÖ I totally enjoyed working with him, not only did he get his work done, I had an enjoyable experience with him, how polite and thoughtful he was, how he joked with us"

    Not, "o that photographer, man he dresses so shabbily, i wonder if he even know how to make himself look good, if he cant even make himself look good, much less make me look good on photo, not to mention his stupid attitude". The worst you can get is to leave such an ugly impression that the whole photographic community tries to avoid you.

    How many of you have actually learnt to "fight" with the press for shots? You try to squeeze your way in to get the shot you are looking for, no doubt you may push one another for shots, but at the end of the day, the photographers be it the press or the official photographers, we still acknowledge each other by just smiling at one another when we meet.

    We learn how to adapt to a situation, if there are too little personnel in the event, but way too many photographers, we use a tag in tag out system. Basically, we keep the photographers to a minimum in the room. We try to be as discreet as possible to avoid attracting too much attention and irritating the guest your client wants you to shoot.

    Being a photographer, you are not trying a attract attention but to be as stealthy as possible, be invisible. Respect your client respect their guest. This way, you gain respect from your client.

    Not to mention the strong bonds we foster with one another, we learnt from one another continually. We are all learning. Be it inexperienced or experienced, I do not believe that there is nothing you can learn from a less experienced photographer. Maybe he will have a different viewpoint, that you can learn?

    We also struggle to get our assignments done on time and deliver in quality work. How we help one another overcome our difficulties. How we ended up as close brothers and sisters. Maybe we will even form a community of young photographers!

    The most important lesson I learnt. Being Humble.

    No doubt, you may be more experienced than the other photographer, you may be better equipped, you may know how to react in difficult situations, you must remember, ITíS A TEAM EFFORT.

    I have totally no regrets being at the computer arranging the appointments for one day, renaming the files and preparing them for print. Mind you, I was at the computer for one whole day. I didnít fire a single shot.

    Now looking back, I miss shooting alongside my team of NYAA photographers, I miss the long hours in our little 5x2m room, a room we call our headquarters, where we dispatch our photographers to different locations. This is the place where we laugh together, where we give each other a boost, when the person himself/herself is mentally and physically exhausted, where we shared happy moments and down moments. Iíve gotten emotionally attached to the place and my team.

    If there is any chance that I can get to work with this group of NYAA photographers again, I will not hesitate to say YES.
    Yoz...

    Agree with u!

    Regards,
    Jianmin

  18. #118

    Default Re: IMF World Bank Brief - My take on Photography scene in Singapore.

    Yeah Yeah....It was happy for you people at NYAA but feel sorry for many who minus that smile.

    In any national organiized event, like Olympic Game, the host country sees it as a way to reward her people by offering many job/assignment opportunities & yes, as a source of $$$ to benefit from. It is also a great chance for local trade talents to show the world what/ how certain Profession(s) in this country is capable of, and help them shine in future world event.

    What I am sad to see is the freebies that going around. Never mind if they are amateurish.

    And disrespect of people who offer professional services as main source of income.

    Imagine hundreds of You take away passenges for free ride to the event venue bypassing the enthusiastic taxi uncles in the long Q at changi Airport.Luckily, it didn't happen.

    Imagine thousands of You open your house offering $10 stay with meals provided for the delegates ignoring the eager hoteliers .Luckily, it didn't happen.

    Imagine hundreds of You clicked away the possible income of the many who rely on such assignment to put bread on table back home.Unfortunately, it happened.

    How inconsiderate.

    Where do we move from here ? It will be difficult to anticipate anymore International event with smiles.

    God bless my fellow photographers whose smiles got trashed by these cameramen.
    Last edited by Volks; 22nd September 2006 at 12:11 PM.

  19. #119
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    Default Re: IMF World Bank Brief - My take on Photography scene in Singapore.

    Volks,

    I do not think you do not understand the Photographic Scene in Singapore very well. For big events, everyone wants to be a part of it, thus the cost is not of a major concern to the organiser. Everybody will try to undercut each other. The pay for the event will basically be peanuts. ( thought i know some peanuts are worth 750K, we are talking about the small peanut).

    This was a great learning platform for all the young photographers, we learn a great deal of things out of this event, personally i think that is what is important, give the youths a chance.

    I believe professional photographers will not suffer a major income lost due to this event, there are probably hundred more events that require their services and pay many folds over.

  20. #120

    Default Re: IMF World Bank Brief - My take on Photography scene in Singapore.

    It is perfectly alright if you experiment things in a lab, or even in commercial environment. There are many routes to gain so call experience/explosure as long as U do not disturb the bread & butter lot.

    I used to include in my list 10 Full time Photographers whose at film days, could snipped out 35 out of 36 exposures accurately on a roll of 35mm Colour Transparencies - how many can do it now?

    And I got booking via faxes & emails from countries where the delegates are here to meet for all kind of conventions as early as 6 months.

    It wasn't because we charged cheap, but because we dealed with highest level of professionalism we could offer.

    Until one day DSLR became everybody's toy.

    We welcomed the change but not the way things turned out :- Event Organiser now includes Photography as part of the hospitality thing because DSLR shoots like a machine gun that never run out of ammo & the beauty of having just 2 shooters could easily cover almost everything.

    I had no choice but to disperse this league & exit from it.

    Whenever I met some of them, it was always head shaking, many of them are now 35 to 50 years of age & still full of family responsibilities (not forgetting they are full time shooters) and so not surprise that some taxi drivers are also photographers.

    I advocate chances of explosure to young photographers but mind if I say that many in this event are Cameramen that will have nothing to do within this circle now & forever thus finds nothing wrong with that.

    The avenue to alternative exploitation is now open to many future events.

    Is there really no cause for concern ?







    Quote Originally Posted by tropica_aloysius
    Volks,

    I do not think you do not understand the Photographic Scene in Singapore very well. For big events, everyone wants to be a part of it, thus the cost is not of a major concern to the organiser. Everybody will try to undercut each other. The pay for the event will basically be peanuts. ( thought i know some peanuts are worth 750K, we are talking about the small peanut).

    This was a great learning platform for all the young photographers, we learn a great deal of things out of this event, personally i think that is what is important, give the youths a chance.

    I believe professional photographers will not suffer a major income lost due to this event, there are probably hundred more events that require their services and pay many folds over.

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