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Thread: Cries of foul play for photographer

  1. #41
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    Default Re: Cries of foul play for photographer

    Quote Originally Posted by Friday13
    My point of view : Natural = Beauty. Man-made = Crap. This is my Art. I would walk the streets all day to get 1 one the priceless shots of children crying than to pay hundredths of bucks for a piece of human-induced crap emotion.
    Glad we see eye to eye.

    I would like to ask again, those who thinks its ok, have you viewed the pictures? I am curious on what is your reaction than? Not baiting, but would like to hear other perspectives and if you are a parent or non-parent.
    I lup SG, but SG don't love me...

  2. #42
    Senior Member jOhO's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cries of foul play for photographer

    i might be too sensitive, but why do i need to state whether i'm a parent or not when giving my opinion? it seems that a non-parent's view would be diminished in this case.

    nevertheless, non-parent here, commenting:

    i totally agree that making a child (or anyone, for that matter) cry is not appropriate. however it happens for different reasons, like someone stated, for movies, in productions, etc, except in this case it happens to be children.

    and reading thru the thread, i'm quite amused as to how a photographer taking a lollipop out of a child's hand can lead to talks of child abuse.

    it's like saying, when i shoved my best fren away becos he pissed me off, it means i want to be a murderer, cause since i can inflict minor bodily harm to him, i have thoughts that could lead to a greater sin?

    i have not seen any of the photos except the one in the main article and i agree it looks like the child is way way unhappy. now, as parents, you also know, that at the next instant, the child can stop crying and be off on his happy ways babbling to him/herself. just becos the instant moment is caught showing the child in possible the worst he/she can look, we all worry about child abuse and rights? i think it's really making a mountain out of a molehill.

    why is everyone so worked up over a child crying due to photography, and not due to hunger in ethiopia?

    yeah yeah, it was induced by another human. same lor, me shoving my fren in the chest becos he accidentally stepped on my toes is also human induced, better cuff me up now, i might end up murdering him.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Cries of foul play for photographer

    Quote Originally Posted by jOhO
    i might be too sensitive, but why do i need to state whether i'm a parent or not when giving my opinion? it seems that a non-parent's view would be diminished in this case.
    Well, its just to see how the reaction is. I would assume it would be a different perspective from a parent and non-parent that's all. A parent may agree or disagree and vice versa for a non-parent.

    Yes, all children will cry. There is a reason why they cry. I guess if the childs knows that are are just acting and getting paid for it, there will be no debate. But when they are clueless and forced to cry for other people's benefits than it's irks the hell out of me. Talk about human rights in the US...jeez.

    Anyway, please look hereand share with us on your thoughts.
    I lup SG, but SG don't love me...

  4. #44
    Senior Member jOhO's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cries of foul play for photographer

    yo sjourn

    my thoughts are the same man... while i do find these images disturbing, i still can't see the link to child abuse.

    personally i wouldn't do it, but i certainly wouldn't have such drastic feelings about it, and i really do not think that it has anything to do with me being a non-parent. if someone approached me to pay my (model) child for such a shoot, perhaps I might consider depending on the situation. if it was just a lollipop removed from my child's hand, then it's ok, i mean that's if i've put my child up as a model to earn money in the first place! that's what models do...

    as for the acting part, i'm not sure a 2 year old can act a scene like those in the link you've posted. it needs to be real, to look real in this case. as to the rationale behind getting this images (for personal reasons, the photographer stated), i'm not about to question, but i still maintain that it's nowhere near close to child abuse, provided whatever stated in the article is true (removing lollipop, parents leaving room for a short while etc, to "induce" this angst in the child).

    aiyah, long story short:

    1. these children are models/actors (models have to get into their roles)
    2. no real harm done to them
    3. personally, i wouldn't do it, but i dun see it as a huge huge huge flaw in humanity (such as to equate this to child abuse).

    slight OT: how to babies cry in movies? i know we aren't talking about babies here, but plenty of movies have crying babies. does the director wait for the baby to cry, then everyone is activated and the scene gets shot? if not, then it's induced right? multiple times too, since each scene is shot a few times i'm sure.

    and all this? for box office sales, for pleasure of us movie-goers. some of us can even say wahhhhhhhhhh the baby so cute when it's crying....

    i think these images hit some of you badly becos they are caught instantaneously and at the right moment (that's wat photographs do, and it's one confirm "advantage" over video), and somemore PROCESSED TO GIVE THAT KIND OF IMPACT.

    relax pple, i'm really sure no real harm came to these kids in question, even tho i don't know the photographer personally, or was at the scene when these took place.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Cries of foul play for photographer

    I think the use of "child abuse" came from the columnist, that is debatable to whether if there was any abuse in the first place.

    Thanks for sharing your views.

    In your previous question on why I was asking parents and non parents view, you would see some difference on how the reaction will be for parents, namely myself and yqt. I know yqt personally, he has 3 kids. I guess it would be in our nature as parents to react more in the sense because we are in photography, and the question is more of the morale ethics of the photog and parents. I can't speak for the rest though....

    I shared this with my family, some are against some are ok, but when I showed them the pictures, they don't view as art at all and felt quite sick about it too. And that's coming from non-photographers.

    my 2 cents.
    I lup SG, but SG don't love me...

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Cries of foul play for photographer

    Ok, just came back from seeing a client and I saw the replies here.

    First, I think there is a misinterpretation either my part or the readers here that I'm pissed due to child abuse.
    This is not the case.
    My stand is that fear is instill into a clueless child when the parent, who most likely is the only person the child knows, is ask to leave the studio for a few mins. And what is the purpose? To instill fear into the kid. Fear so real that the kid will cry. And we're not talking about just tearing a bit but loud streaming tears kind of cry as was shown in the images. And what was the aim right from the very start? To fulfill a personal need to shoot something diff. something shocking. And at the end of it, try to make a buck out of it.
    This cannot be right. I don't think we should subject a child to such treatment. Not for art, not for money and no way in hell for the sake of fulfilling anyone's personal need to stand out.
    I get paid more shooting part time ...... damn, I should find more time to shoot part time

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Cries of foul play for photographer

    Quote Originally Posted by jOhO
    i might be too sensitive, but why do i need to state whether i'm a parent or not when giving my opinion? it seems that a non-parent's view would be diminished in this case.

    nevertheless, non-parent here, commenting:

    i totally agree that making a child (or anyone, for that matter) cry is not appropriate. however it happens for different reasons, like someone stated, for movies, in productions, etc, except in this case it happens to be children.

    and reading thru the thread, i'm quite amused as to how a photographer taking a lollipop out of a child's hand can lead to talks of child abuse.

    it's like saying, when i shoved my best fren away becos he pissed me off, it means i want to be a murderer, cause since i can inflict minor bodily harm to him, i have thoughts that could lead to a greater sin?

    i have not seen any of the photos except the one in the main article and i agree it looks like the child is way way unhappy. now, as parents, you also know, that at the next instant, the child can stop crying and be off on his happy ways babbling to him/herself. just becos the instant moment is caught showing the child in possible the worst he/she can look, we all worry about child abuse and rights? i think it's really making a mountain out of a molehill.

    why is everyone so worked up over a child crying due to photography, and not due to hunger in ethiopia?

    yeah yeah, it was induced by another human. same lor, me shoving my fren in the chest becos he accidentally stepped on my toes is also human induced, better cuff me up now, i might end up murdering him.
    Just a note, the child in question here is crying because someone make him/her cry intentionally for the purpose of fulfilling a personal project. A personal project which will not cause the photographer anything if she don't do it or if she were to do it diff. The children in ethiopia are crying not because of someone's personal project to make them go hungry but rather due to political, nature, etc. There is a diff.

    Oh yeah, you push your friend because he step on your toes. You may even slap him over his head because you are piss at him. I say there's nothing wrong with you. But what did the children in those photo do to the photographer to deserves being made to feel fearful. Your friend deserves it. Do you think the children deserve it?
    I get paid more shooting part time ...... damn, I should find more time to shoot part time

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Cries of foul play for photographer

    Quote Originally Posted by yqt
    Just a note, the child in question here is crying because someone make him/her cry intentionally for the purpose of fulfilling a personal project. A personal project which will not cause the photographer anything if she don't do it or if she were to do it diff. The children in ethiopia are crying not because of someone's personal project to make them go hungry but rather due to political, nature, etc. There is a diff.

    Oh yeah, you push your friend because he step on your toes. You may even slap him over his head because you are piss at him. I say there's nothing wrong with you. But what did the children in those photo do to the photographer to deserves being made to feel fearful. Your friend deserves it. Do you think the children deserve it?
    my analogy has to be used in context pls. my context was assuming child abuse from very little information, hence making a big deal out of a small one.

    here u are talking about justification of the actions of the photographer/parent. totally different to what i was talking about, so i won't answer ur question.

    u are saying that subjecting a child to this fear (seems like alot to u, very little to me) is not desirable for this type of gain. the photographer didn't feel so, neither did the children's parents, and neither do i. u also feel the fear is great, and it is so inhumane that a child has to feel such a way for the pleasure of others. i dun feel that it's a big deal. the fear may be real, but it is unfouned, and it's not for a long time.

    try and compare a child without his lollipop to another with no food and has to eat his mum's scalded skin. which one more jia lat?

    relax lar, these children did not go thru "FEAR" as u put it, they cry soooo easily and they recover just as easily. it's hardly gonna ruin their future as confident adults.

    i'd like to hear some responses on my scenario the babies' crying in movies too if you please.

    like i said above.. i will not shoot these kind of images. but i also dun think that there is such a great "wrong" in doing what the article mentioned. there are other greater wrongs we can do to our kids, and one of them is pacifying and treating them like kings and queens all the time and they grow up thiking the world owes them a living, and endless lollipops....

    i was FLOGGED as a kid, and i think it did me well. seriously bro... and i still love my parents to bits.

  9. #49

    Default Re: Cries of foul play for photographer

    Quote Originally Posted by jOhO
    my analogy has to be used in context pls. my context was assuming child abuse from very little information, hence making a big deal out of a small one.

    here u are talking about justification of the actions of the photographer/parent. totally different to what i was talking about, so i won't answer ur question.

    u are saying that subjecting a child to this fear (seems like alot to u, very little to me) is not desirable for this type of gain. the photographer didn't feel so, neither did the children's parents, and neither do i. u also feel the fear is great, and it is so inhumane that a child has to feel such a way for the pleasure of others. i dun feel that it's a big deal. the fear may be real, but it is unfouned, and it's not for a long time.

    try and compare a child without his lollipop to another with no food and has to eat his mum's scalded skin. which one more jia lat?

    relax lar, these children did not go thru "FEAR" as u put it, they cry soooo easily and they recover just as easily. it's hardly gonna ruin their future as confident adults.

    i'd like to hear some responses on my scenario the babies' crying in movies too if you please.

    like i said above.. i will not shoot these kind of images. but i also dun think that there is such a great "wrong" in doing what the article mentioned. there are other greater wrongs we can do to our kids, and one of them is pacifying and treating them like kings and queens all the time and they grow up thiking the world owes them a living, and endless lollipops....

    i was FLOGGED as a kid, and i think it did me well. seriously bro... and i still love my parents to bits.

  10. #50

    Default Re: Cries of foul play for photographer

    I've got another argument...
    Which is worse? A crying child or a silent child?
    I think in most cases of peadophiles molesting children, the child does not cry.
    So does taking a lollipop away from a child and making him/her cry seem as bad now?
    Or do you think it's the same?

  11. #51

    Default Re: Cries of foul play for photographer

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin
    i have to disagree. it's not just for fun, if parents find having kids crying in fear is fun there's something really wrong with those parents. at least i know my parents don't do that just for fun, and my relatives don't do it for fun.
    So you've never seen parents do that? How come I have? Can we have a show of hands from those who've seen parents making their kids cry by pretending to leave the room please?

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Cries of foul play for photographer

    oh and i need to add..

    the photographer has done an EXCELLENT job to invoke so much emotional responses.

    basically, i still feel that the child was not subject to this "huge" amount of stress, fear, watever, but the images SHOW it that way.

    photographically, she was able to use lighting, mood, post processing, watever he needed, to get IMPACT, which is apparent here.

    in a nut shell:

    IT'S NOT AS BAD AS IT LOOKS!!!



    i still wanna draw this conclusion:

    seeing a baby crying in the movie "three men and a baby" and going "oooohhh sooooo cuuuuuuteee"

    and

    seeing a child crying here in these images.

    wat is the REAL difference? forget movie making, forget DI, forget lighting and effects.

    there is NO difference. none.

  13. #53

    Default Re: Cries of foul play for photographer

    But personally, I don't like kids very much. So I wouldn't even bother to photograph them haha.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Cries of foul play for photographer

    Quote Originally Posted by benedium
    But personally, I don't like kids very much. So I wouldn't even bother to photograph them haha.
    A bit of selfishness but I admire your guts to admit it. I used to be like you but when I learned that I am a kid before, I have grown to be more tolerant and started to like them.

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Cries of foul play for photographer

    Quote Originally Posted by benedium
    But personally, I don't like kids very much. So I wouldn't even bother to photograph them haha.
    kids probably don't like u too, so dun worree it's reciprocated....

  16. #56

    Default Re: Cries of foul play for photographer

    Quote Originally Posted by Friday13
    A bit of selfishness but I admire your guts to admit it. I used to be like you but when I learned that I am a kid before, I have grown to be more tolerant and started to like them.
    Oh now then i know people who like kids are less selfish... i see....
    So paedophiles must be really selfless heroes... That's news!!

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Cries of foul play for photographer

    Quote Originally Posted by jOhO
    my analogy has to be used in context pls. my context was assuming child abuse from very little information, hence making a big deal out of a small one.

    here u are talking about justification of the actions of the photographer/parent. totally different to what i was talking about, so i won't answer ur question.

    u are saying that subjecting a child to this fear (seems like alot to u, very little to me) is not desirable for this type of gain. the photographer didn't feel so, neither did the children's parents, and neither do i. u also feel the fear is great, and it is so inhumane that a child has to feel such a way for the pleasure of others. i dun feel that it's a big deal. the fear may be real, but it is unfouned, and it's not for a long time.

    try and compare a child without his lollipop to another with no food and has to eat his mum's scalded skin. which one more jia lat?

    relax lar, these children did not go thru "FEAR" as u put it, they cry soooo easily and they recover just as easily. it's hardly gonna ruin their future as confident adults.

    i'd like to hear some responses on my scenario the babies' crying in movies too if you please.

    like i said above.. i will not shoot these kind of images. but i also dun think that there is such a great "wrong" in doing what the article mentioned. there are other greater wrongs we can do to our kids, and one of them is pacifying and treating them like kings and queens all the time and they grow up thiking the world owes them a living, and endless lollipops....

    i was FLOGGED as a kid, and i think it did me well. seriously bro... and i still love my parents to bits.

    I've already stated that I'm not talking about child abuse.
    But I'm puzzled that you feel we're making a big deal out of a small one given the limited info that we have, yet at the same time, you said:
    " relax lar, these children did not go thru "FEAR" as u put it, they cry soooo easily and they recover just as easily. it's hardly gonna ruin their future as confident adults."
    perhaps you have add. info from some other website/source which we're not aware of to draw such conclusion. After all you mention that we should not draw conclusion given the limited info which is availably at this time. If you do, could you kindly share it with the rest of us?

    I can understand you comparison between this and the children in ethiopia and my opinion is stated in my previous post:
    the child in question here is crying because someone make him/her cry intentionally for the purpose of fulfilling a personal project. A personal project which will not cause the photographer anything if she don't do it or if she were to do it diff. The children in ethiopia are crying not because of someone's personal project to make them go hungry but rather due to political, nature, etc. There is a diff.

    You ask for some feedback on scenario of babies' crying in movies.
    When on set, many scenes are pre shot. That's why many scenes with baby/small child crying are tight shots. When they're showing a wider shot the crying face of the baby/child is not seen and sometimes in the case of a baby, a dummy is used. Many a times more than 1 baby/child is on set. 1 for laughing, 1 for crying, 1 for sitting, etc you get the picture. Another thing on set are also child minders. These are people who know the child/babies very well. Sometimes it is the parent, sometimes it may be the nanny or the trainer from the casting company. Many a times, on set, a child model/talent ( babies from agencies are known as talents ) is used. These model/talents are train before the shoot or are known to be able to cry on cue. Every precaution is taken to ensure that there is as little discomfort as possible to the child/talent. No director or producer will want a lawyer come knocking on their door about child abuse. They rather use DI or CGI.
    How do I know? I've shots children for ads and assisted for children/babies/motherhood mag shoot before. Shot them in many expression including crying. Also many of what I've mention above are on the papers.

    Your para about kids treated " like kings and queens all the time and they grow up thiking the world owes them a living, and endless lollipops.... ", totally agreed with you. That why I'm rather strict with my kids but at the same time I make sure that they know that I love them.

    Just like you, I'm sure many of us were " flogged" by our parents before and still love them now. I know I do.

    Your earlier post you mention:
    Quote Originally Posted by jOhO
    ...... as for the acting part, i'm not sure a 2 year old can act a scene like those in the link you've posted.
    She did use professional models for the shoot. Just not sure why she did not use all professional models. At least that way, the child models could be train to cry or she could chose only those who cry easily and they at least knows what to expect.
    I get paid more shooting part time ...... damn, I should find more time to shoot part time

  18. #58

    Default Re: Cries of foul play for photographer

    They just looking for an opportunity to sue sue sue

  19. #59
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    Default Re: Cries of foul play for photographer

    Just in case someone missed it, it is stated that the images were digitally manipulated to dramatise the lighting and emphasise the tears. Meaning that the expression is real. And it is the expression and how the photographer induced the expression which bothers many of us.
    I get paid more shooting part time ...... damn, I should find more time to shoot part time

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