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Thread: Why do I hate messy hair?

  1. #61

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Very very misleading posting. I always get angry when I see such irresponsible way of interpreting things.

    There are tonnes of postings like this from DP supporters which doesnt help the situation.

    From what I can see, most newbies that posted are indeed willing to learn, and willing to take criticism.

    But that doesn't mean that they are willing to be a door mat for others to step on, joke about and insult.

    Give constructive criticism does not mean you have to use sarcastic words to insult others.

    Most forumers here are adults. Be respectful.

    No one is saying that he shouldn't post constructive criticism, but rather put the message across without insulting & making fun of others. It is not that difficult. Many other experienced forumers are always quietly doing it.

    I think many supported it becos they enjoy the show and drama.

    But pls note that this is in the expense of newbie who didn't know what hit them. They come here to learn, not to be a clown or laughing stock of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Horsba85
    the above's flame bait.

    2 reasons why people post pictures.
    1) to share their pictures
    2) to learn how to improve
    and the majority is more towards 1)

    if they were towards 2)
    they have also 2 choices
    1) accept it as it is and ask themselves why
    2) brush it off

    of course unless your tolerance is so low that you go for option 3
    - be angry, make a big fuss.

    if that's the case, then don't post at all.
    Last edited by JSNG; 30th June 2006 at 08:25 PM.

  2. #62

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    As I always say: Can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by JSNG
    Very very misleading posting. I always get angry when I see such irresponsible way of interpreting things.
    There are many types of people in the world. The good, the bad and the ugly. That's fact and that's that. You have to get the right mindset if you want to post pictures. That applies to all, pros and newbies. There is no sure way or guarantee that everyone will like the photos you take.

    I do not condone the harsh criticisms that DP make but I do not hate them when they are placed on me. That's because I expect my photos to be criticised and anyway possible is okay. I wouldn't label myself as 'tough' nor others as 'sissy' but more of an self analytical way of seeing things. Those tough words are going to help me improve.

    Should people think like me, I guess there would be less people getting upset over such trivial matters. We should be open to criticisms and not afraid to post. I do agree that sometimes, some are attacks are too harsh. That is okay for me, because I recognise that the insult or personal attack is worthless to me and I will just ignore it.

    Of course, that is not the only side. The people doing the commenting should also play their part. People are sensitive, they have feelings. One must also exercise self control in their postings. Should a photo be bad, instead of posting condemning remarks, is it not alright to just refrain from posting?

    That wouldn't help the fella either. He will not be improving. We can choose to help, we can choose to destroy. We have the freedom to post as we like and responsibility falls upon us to phrase our words carefully. Being frank or being tactful or even worse, upfront, is up to us to decide. As said, people are different and our handling of the English language can make a difference. The intention and the perception of the writer and reader respectively may differ.

    Wouldn't the world be a better place if we put our comments and criticisms across in a better way? Wouldn't the world be a better place if the one receiving criticisms receive all feedbacks in a positive manner?

    Will this happen?

    It's up to us.

    Here's another 3 options.
    1) Live with it.
    2) Ignore it.
    3) Try to make a difference. Try.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by JSNG
    Very very misleading posting. I always get angry when I see such irresponsible way of interpreting things.

    There are tonnes of postings like this from DP supporters which doesnt help the situation.

    From what I can see, most newbies that posted are indeed willing to learn, and willing to take criticism.

    But that doesn't mean that they are willing to be a door mat for others to step on, joke about and insult.

    Give constructive criticism does not mean you have to use sarcastic words to insult others.

    Most forumers here are adults. Be respectful.

    No one is saying that he shouldn't post constructive criticism, but rather put the message across without insulting & making fun of others. It is not that difficult. Many other experienced forumers are always quietly doing it.

    I think many supported it becos they enjoy the show and drama.

    But pls note that this is in the expense of newbie who didn't know what hit them. They come here to learn, not to be a clown or laughing stock of others.
    I am relatively neutral in the saga.Until now.
    From what I have observed, DP's comments and critisisms are not insuting nor are they used to make fun and joke about newbies.
    He is just trying to get his point across.Yes, though his language used is a little hostile and maybe to the extent of offensive to some, he did not start any damn war in here.
    Its the reaction of those who cannot accept his point of view that starts a somewhat heated exchange.If others did not critisize him for making his views known, there would be no argument.
    In fact, many a time, I find DP's comments to be learning points for me.


    Most forumers here are adults. Be respectful. <--- you condemn the way DP does, stoop down to his level, you attacked cyber_monkey, and you call urself mature?

    Or are you trying to add to the drama here as well?
    Last edited by JediForce4ever; 1st July 2006 at 07:50 PM.

  5. #65

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    i have been DPd..

    and ill admit, it does bring the ego down quite a lot when you are on the receiving end.

    but after wallowing in self-pity for a short while, its just a case of picking yourself up and moving on.

    I have to say, that in a way, his style of criticising makes a very effective way of getting his point across. i.e. someone can say, "picture is a little underexposed". maybe i might take that to heart, or maybe not. but if someone says "THAT PICTURE SUCKS. MY KID CAN TAKE BETTER PICTURES", it will definitely have an effect on me.

    i can honestly say now, that i am much more careful about how i take my pictures in terms of getting the basics right. and ive started to become more attentive to detail. which i think is only a good thing.

  6. #66

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    JSNG,

    Show us your work. Maybe I can give some critque on your work. If you cant endure harsh critique, you will never improve.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by Klose
    JSNG,

    Show us your work. Maybe I can give some critque on your work. If you cant endure harsh critique, you will never improve.
    It seems that u have mistaken his intent of his word. Read carefully what he is trying to tell u.

    Quote from JSNG, "Very very misleading posting. I always get angry when I see such irresponsible way of interpreting things.

    There are tonnes of postings like this from DP supporters which doesnt help the situation.

    From what I can see, most newbies that posted are indeed willing to learn, and willing to take criticism.
    But that doesn't mean that they are willing to be a door mat for others to step on, joke about and insult.

    Give constructive criticism does not mean you have to use sarcastic words to insult others.

    Most forumers here are adults. Be respectful.

    No one is saying that he shouldn't post constructive criticism, but rather put the message across without insulting & making fun of others. It is not that difficult. Many other experienced forumers are always quietly doing it.

    I think many supported it becos they enjoy the show and drama.

    But pls note that this is in the expense of newbie who didn't know what hit them. They come here to learn, not to be a clown or laughing stock of others. "

    He is saying that the spirit of critiquing is not to insult, use vulgar representations, etc to bring the message across but to put it in a constructive manner. He did not say he mind harsh critique. There is a great difference between harsh critique and ridicule method of doing critique.

  8. #68
    Senior Member jOhO's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    i'd love to point out that i find the term "DP supporters" quite insulting as if he was our cult leader and we bow to him like he's a saint. he certainly is not, but i still am on the "side" that DP is fine and, bluntly put those who cannot take it, then move aside. of course someone already eloquently put it: can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. in this case the heat is relative. some find it hot, some don't, and i certainly do not, so in the kitchen i stay.

    another point i will repeatedly mention: the pple that are not happy with DP are USUALLY those that he has NOT directed his comments to. many of whom he has "insulted" have repeatedly said they appreciate his comments and have learnt something from him. perhaps they did not appreciate him saying that a 5yo can take better pics, but they can filter his words and learn from his supporting statements, yes they took the heat.

    WILL SOMEONE (NON-DP SUPPORTERS PERHAPS) PLS ADDRESS THIS POINT? (to use the same language)....



    sometimes i wonder, are we that soft? didn't ur platoon sergeant scold your whole family tree when you were in bmt? of course i'm not saying that he has a right to, but we have been thru worse insult in our lives, be it in army or not, this is nothing lor. to the totally logical, DP, and myself, and the rest of the net, are just pixels on a screen, technically. there are bigger problems out there in your lives, this shouldn't be one of them.

  9. #69
    Member Andy Ho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Although DP's comments are uncalled for even if he meant well, I still think that we need to take it with a pinch of salt. It is truly a good learning curve for people who aspire to improve, especially to the extend of becoming a pro. I will tell you why.

    I am a full time photographer. As a full time photographer I am always striving to improve my quality and service to the client. Asking client's comments after the shoot is not what many photographers are willing to do, or has never done, because it hurts to hear the truth. I would say it is hard to swallow when a client gives you comments like "so so", "can do better", and the worst "what crap is this that I see!!?" but if you can take away your pride and just listen to the client, and then analyse the photos then you would probably humble yourself to improve. Touch wood, such comments hasn't come to me yet although some of the photogs I know received a fair share of it, even Hasselblad masters themselves, but I believed that such comments would eventually reach me one day because we just can't satisfy everyone no matter how competent we are. That's facts. If we can't take what DP has commented, we can't take the real world when we go pro.

    With that said, I want to clarify that when I mentioned "learning curve" on the first para I meant not learning in photography but learning in humbling yourself and character strengthening. I am still in the learning stage in terms of humbling myself and I would call myself a newbie in this.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Pablo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by CreaXion
    It seems that u have mistaken his intent of his word. Read carefully what he is trying to tell u.

    Quote from JSNG, "Very very misleading posting. I always get angry when I see such irresponsible way of interpreting things.

    There are tonnes of postings like this from DP supporters which doesnt help the situation.

    From what I can see, most newbies that posted are indeed willing to learn, and willing to take criticism.
    But that doesn't mean that they are willing to be a door mat for others to step on, joke about and insult.

    Give constructive criticism does not mean you have to use sarcastic words to insult others.

    Most forumers here are adults. Be respectful.

    No one is saying that he shouldn't post constructive criticism, but rather put the message across without insulting & making fun of others. It is not that difficult. Many other experienced forumers are always quietly doing it.

    I think many supported it becos they enjoy the show and drama.

    But pls note that this is in the expense of newbie who didn't know what hit them. They come here to learn, not to be a clown or laughing stock of others. "

    He is saying that the spirit of critiquing is not to insult, use vulgar representations, etc to bring the message across but to put it in a constructive manner. He did not say he mind harsh critique. There is a great difference between harsh critique and ridicule method of doing critique.

    Well said, I agree fully and I believe this is what a majority of others feel also.
    Time, is an effortless construction :)

  11. #71

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by CreaXion
    It seems that u have mistaken his intent of his word. Read carefully what he is trying to tell u.

    Quote from JSNG, "Very very misleading posting. I always get angry when I see such irresponsible way of interpreting things.

    There are tonnes of postings like this from DP supporters which doesnt help the situation.

    From what I can see, most newbies that posted are indeed willing to learn, and willing to take criticism.
    But that doesn't mean that they are willing to be a door mat for others to step on, joke about and insult.

    Give constructive criticism does not mean you have to use sarcastic words to insult others.

    Most forumers here are adults. Be respectful.

    No one is saying that he shouldn't post constructive criticism, but rather put the message across without insulting & making fun of others. It is not that difficult. Many other experienced forumers are always quietly doing it.

    I think many supported it becos they enjoy the show and drama.

    But pls note that this is in the expense of newbie who didn't know what hit them. They come here to learn, not to be a clown or laughing stock of others. "

    He is saying that the spirit of critiquing is not to insult, use vulgar representations, etc to bring the message across but to put it in a constructive manner. He did not say he mind harsh critique. There is a great difference between harsh critique and ridicule method of doing critique.

    Amen to that!

    Even in "Truth", delivery can often be more important than the substance.

    "Truth" wrongly delivered, can often destroy.

    And is there much "Truth" in art and photography?

    People who defend unkind harsh "truthful" criticisms forgot one important thing. The people who often protect such manner delivery of criticisms forgot the tremendous ability of words to build and destroy. Are we soft? Are all equally tough? So the common denomitor for "medicine" is directed to the "toughest"?

    And they forgot one other important thing. That those who could use such harsh unkind words, are not in need of English lessons. This speak volumes of their attitude to others.

    The unhappiness is not the content (which is "non-truth" anyway, but personal opinions. including quirks), but the delivery.

    To those who are in support of such delivery styles, would you deliver "truths" to your parents, children, and friends in such manner? Tell your children their essays suck? Tell your parents their manner of frressing is s**t? Tell your girlfriends that their sense of dressing is suitable only for the pigs? Even if all those things were "true"?

    Be consistent. For those you are sincerely, really trying to help, you would do these same things to those you care about? And if you do not care, they why open your big mouth in the first place?

  12. #72

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by jOhO


    sometimes i wonder, are we that soft? didn't ur platoon sergeant scold your whole family tree when you were in bmt?
    yo bro ..... dun think platoon sergeant nowadays scold your whole family tree hor ... scold you can but not your family members and relatives ...
    AMPA * WPPI * J team

  13. #73

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Ho
    Although DP's comments are uncalled for even if he meant well, I still think that we need to take it with a pinch of salt. It is truly a good learning curve for people who aspire to improve, especially to the extend of becoming a pro. I will tell you why.

    With that said, I want to clarify that when I mentioned "learning curve" on the first para I meant not learning in photography but learning in humbling yourself and character strengthening. I am still in the learning stage in terms of humbling myself and I would call myself a newbie in this.

    I know you mean well, and intention clear.

    But somehow I cannot agree whole-heartedly with you.

    In my profession, I had been a student for a long, long, time! And I had been (still is) a teacher for a very long time. And as a student for photography, I am at the present moment, in the toddler stage.

    As a student, and as a teacher, I found out some important lessons.

    Inculcating humility in a student does not mean treating the student like s**t.

    In learning to be humble, one does not need to lick the soiled feet of the teacher.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Word.

    1+1=2
    2-1=1

    No one bothers understanding.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by student
    Amen to that!

    Even in "Truth", delivery can often be more important than the substance.

    "Truth" wrongly delivered, can often destroy.

    And is there much "Truth" in art and photography?

    People who defend unkind harsh "truthful" criticisms forgot one important thing. The people who often protect such manner delivery of criticisms forgot the tremendous ability of words to build and destroy. Are we soft? Are all equally tough? So the common denomitor for "medicine" is directed to the "toughest"?

    And they forgot one other important thing. That those who could use such harsh unkind words, are not in need of English lessons. This speak volumes of their attitude to others.

    The unhappiness is not the content (which is "non-truth" anyway, but personal opinions. including quirks), but the delivery.

    To those who are in support of such delivery styles, would you deliver "truths" to your parents, children, and friends in such manner? Tell your children their essays suck? Tell your parents their manner of frressing is s**t? Tell your girlfriends that their sense of dressing is suitable only for the pigs? Even if all those things were "true"?

    Be consistent. For those you are sincerely, really trying to help, you would do these same things to those you care about? And if you do not care, they why open your big mouth in the first place?
    Wah Power argument sia. Try doing that to my wife and confirmed I will get a slap and dunno how many lonely nites I will get .

    Trying doing that to my children and confirmed they will be so demoralised until they won't study liao. Imagine teachers telling that to my children and I for sure will complain. Reason is very simple. It goes against any motivation theory. I am a manager in my full time job. I work with all sorts of pp in my company. Can u imagine for every mistake that my subordinate make and I make all the crude remarks, confirmed all my pp will go against me. They won't even bother to learn from the mistake. Of course, there are certain pp that u have to be extreme in management but it is only a rare percentage.

    Constructive critcisms does not mean u are covering up the person's mistakes. It is just a different way of delivery so that pp are not put down or ridiculed. Many a times in my company, in order for my pp to learn from their mistakes, I have to use things like, "Thanks for your help, do u think u can do this faster if u do it ....." or "I like this idea, do u think we can change this idea a bit so that ......?" It is not being hypocritical. When hypocritical is when u dun like the thing and yet u say u like the things (Of course there are exceptions lah like when dealing with wife.)

  16. #76

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by Horsba85
    Word.

    1+1=2
    2-1=1

    No one bothers understanding.

    There is a name for those who do not bother to understand and yet want to write to pretend to be profound.

    Now what is that name?

    Oh! S**T! - there it is!!!!!

    And oh, words!! Meaningless words from meaningless ********************!!!!!!!!!!

  17. #77
    Senior Member sykestang's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Pardon me... I may be slow... cannot get a picture via words, need to see examples. DP, mind to share some of your works to emphasis your point?

    Please enlightening me on the difference between a Messed Up hair-do and messy hair.

    And the fact that I believe most of us will agree on these:
    1. photography is a form of art;
    2. art is a form of creativity
    3. creative comes from how the artist himself sees certain things at his own different angle.

    Since then, why do we have rules over hairdo when the artist/photographer sees that it is alright when he took that picture?

    A typical good example is Steven Seagal, a international idol, a martial art expert... Yes, his shows are good as most of all, he uses real skills and martial arts to fight, however something about all his shows that I cannot help noticing... his hairdo. No matter, how stress he is, how many ppl he fights, how injured he is, and all the way to the part in the movie 'Critical Decision' where he is blown out of the F117 into the air and was sacrificed, he hairdo is still remains unchanged... ie straight and neat. Best of all... his hairdo design has not changed much in almost all his movies. THIS IS SO UNREAL!!!

    In the above example, which would be nicer? The art director:
    i. messed up his hair OR
    ii. should he just let the hair style natually get shifted and get messy as according to the situation of each scene. OR
    iii. lastly always have the hairdo combed, gel up, fixed with a neat and nice hairdo as what we observed in all his movies.

    As in the recent uproar of Bernice Wong's photos, I personally find a messy hair style will suit the theme. Ultimately, it is a bikini shoot, a sports, outdoor, sunshine theme. So what's wrong with a little messy hair-do... messed up naturally by the winds. It is more natural and gives me a outdoor lively side of Bernice.

    Personally I do not have much problems with your comments on messy hair, cos I normally just 'IGNORE' as the moderator always advised. But it is the way you put it, to enforce it till it becomes a 'rule' that put me off.

    If you really wants to help newbies here to start with, enforcing your views may not be a good thing. Remember one thing in mind... creative is cultivated and it not taught! In order to cultivate, we should not be the ones to kill ideas but to let them experience and learn it in his/her own way, style and pace. Ultimately when you learn to see things at a broader view and try to understand why the newbies sees in that angle, you might learn and experience something new also.

    If you really want to help, guide and suggestion would be the word cos there is no right or wrong in art... only on how one perceives it when he/she sees it.
    Last edited by sykestang; 4th July 2006 at 09:55 AM.
    Visit me at my studio: http://www.studiospace.com.sg

  18. #78
    Senior Member sykestang's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    DP here is a OT for you... Looking for smelly deep-fried tofu? Think Geylang Lor 4x near Bobman's studio there is one stall.
    Visit me at my studio: http://www.studiospace.com.sg

  19. #79

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Guys

    Just cool it. This is a lovely forum to learn, interact and share. I am sure each of us can make this a more pleasant environment. If there are individuals who spoil this playground, I hope the moderators can do their part to steer the individuals back on track. Call it house rules or forum rules. The mods can do their policing work here perhaps and moderate the freedom of speech thingy (ie screw the freedom).

    Bro DP,
    You have a unique character and have been constructive in your daring manner. Giving down to earth critiques on photos require not just guts, but knowledge as well. I am sure you meant well in your own style and you are indeed skillful in your very own way.

    Why not just chill out over a cuppa coffee? Sometimes, words lack emotions which may otherwise lead to conflict.

    In the end, we just hope to have a pleasant day surfing... at Club Snap.

    Cheers
    Contaxable
    Last edited by contaxable; 6th July 2006 at 10:32 AM.

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    This thread is getting more interesting......

    Those who love messy hair (Bernice shoots).........stay in the black corner.

    Those who loves clean hair (Like Steven Segal jumping off the F-117 and still looks great with not a single strand of hair) stay in the white corner.

    Funny on how just one part of the model/subject a make a mountain out of a mole hill.

    I know we photographers have a part to be responsible for the overall look of a model. Again it's one liking whether hair should be messy with style. How much do we really know what is messy and what is not? Isn't this the make-up artist and hair stylist to make the model look great so it gives us less work to do.

    One major problem with most model shoot in CS is the organisers seldom hire a professional MUA as they want to save as much cost possible so they can profit a little bit more out of every shoot. So, most models will do their own make-up and hair (which looks really bad). Look at good examples from Cedric(PointBlankShoot) and Sok Eng(berryhappy) where they hire pro MUA. The make-up colours really stands out. Hair is done neatly (eventhough it's messy in a nice way)

    Somehow the discussion of the topic is a little over kill for now. Peace man.....

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