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Thread: Why do I hate messy hair?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Zeckson Chow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Please pardon me because I am going a little off topic here. I do agree with Wai Leong on his views. He talks about social etiquette. I also agree with Joho with his views on DeadPoet. They have made good sense here. I do not agree with Wolfgang's intention of closing the thread however.

    Closing threads does not help here but it does help to slow things down a bit. Even when threads are close, new threads can always be opened and things will start to get hot again. An increase in thread count is the result and that means if a newbie comes in and start reading all these threads, he/she is going to get culture shock, worse if he/she is not a local.

    I do hope that, as Wolfgang mentioned, something is being done here in ClubSNAP because I see a desperate need on this. It is going towards critical now. If something is being done here at the moment, could we be at least advised on a realistic timeframe to see visible results? I do apologize if I missed noticing this something here because I don't see change yet. The something could maybe take a year to complete or no. At least we as members can have an expectation of when things are going to be better, then we can patiently wait and look forward to it.

    In my opinion, I somehow get an idea that closing threads is to avoid the problem and cool things down but that does not get rid of the problem. I identified the problem here in ClubSNAP as:

    Some members here have really bad manners and social etiquette.

    Am I incorrect?
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  2. #22
    Senior Member +evenstar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeckson Chow

    In my opinion, I somehow get an idea that closing threads is to avoid the problem and cool things down but that does not get rid of the problem. I identified the problem here in ClubSNAP as:

    Some members here have really bad manners and social etiquette.
    Agreed....
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong
    Why close this thread? There are no personal attacks going on here. We're using it to discuss what's going on. I think it has value.
    Fair enough i reckon. This thread shall remain open then.
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  4. #24
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    There might be a gene that runs inherent to certain pre-disposed individuals called OHCD.

    Obssesive Hairstyle Compulsion Disorder.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    I think we need a mass ice-breaker for 10,000 people in the next birthday bash.

    After today, I've decided to post only "nice " lines so that CS will be a more friendly place.



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  6. #26

    Default Why do I hate civil people?

    I actually think people can afford to be harsher here, just that people shouldn't take things personally or make personal attacks.
    And if you don't think the criticism is justified, then debate it out or agree to disagree.

    aiyah we all just need to be abit more thick skinned lah, laugh things off over a cup of ice milo.

  7. #27
    Senior Member jOhO's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wisp
    What's wrong advice? That's easy. Pushing your own preset views on other people on how they should shoot their photographs. In the end, especially for the new guys, if they were to follow him, they would lose all inviduality of making 'their' own photograph and use his standards as a rule.

    Where I am, we would actually get our 'student's to come up and present us their photograph and talk about it, rather than us commenting on it. Think it like an audition.
    I find doing such an approach gives them time to think about their photograph and why they like it or so on without the influence of the observers yet. Only when they finished and solidified their stand on their own image would we offer our own suggestions.

    I do critique the images here,but I send them by private PM. I see no need to engage in the public domain which may confuse the viewer.

    Anyway, photography is so subjective, so nothing is wrong by right whatsoever. What I find naseauting (think I got the spelling wrong..again too lazy ha) is the lack of initiative and the lack of an open mind. Most of all, the lack of drive and passion! Everybody's here's to save face. Look up APUG.org or photo.net. You'd see the difference.

    Even in western society if you were to approach people in that kind of manner, you either get ordered out of the room or get slapped. Have no illusions of 'free speech'.
    wrong advise where it's truly WRONG, for example, in M mode, dialing in ev compensation changes the exposure of your image. it changes the METER not the EXPOSURE (since u are in M).. this is the BEST example of WRONG advise i have seen many times in CS.

    as for messy hair, say, it's generally accepted that UNINTENTIONAL messy hair, as dp has pointed out, usually, if not, always, spoils a good image, esp a close up head or half body shot. his problem (if anyone deems so) is that he's quite anal about it. as i said, i dun find him rude or harsh YET... so, he's on my "friends" list...

    ur approach to giving critiques on a more personal level is commendable, however, it's out of context to this forum, we are talking about giving critiques here in clubsnap. coming out for a cup of coffee and prints isn't practiced by the mass of pple here who are mostly, behind a veil of anonmity, by choice or by lack of time/energy/need to meet up and make friends.

    as for the speech thing, yeah i'm not so sure dp could go up to an image in a photo exhibition and drag the photograper along and say "my 5yo son can do better". u might ask, so why does he do that here? well, there are images here in CS that 5yo can do better (i expect in a photo exhibition there'd be some quality), he's just the unlucky sod that has to mouth it off.

    again, he is not "wrong", he's just harsh. i do find the need to repeat that if anyone is out to learn, take his advise WITHOUT the crap, just filter it off. i remember taking worse crap when i was learning, and am still learning, altho i do get a little more respect now.

    i agree with ur last paragraph altho i don't surf those sites. well maybe not everyone has the same level of passion that is "expected" of photographers?


    edited for typos.
    Last edited by jOhO; 26th June 2006 at 03:14 AM.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by jOhO
    wrong advise where it's truly WRONG, for example, in M mode, dialing in ev compensation changes the exposure of your image. it changes the METER not the EXPOSURE (since u are in M).. this is the BEST example of WRONG advise i have seen many times in CS.

    as for messy hair, say, it's generally accepted that UNINTENTIONAL messy hair, as dp has pointed out, usually, if not, always, spoils a good image, esp a close up head or half body shot. his problem (if anyone deems so) is that he's quite anal about it. as i said, i dun find him rude or harsh YET... so, he's on my "friends" list...

    ur approach to giving critiques on a more personal level is commendable, however, it's out of context to this forum, we are talking about giving critiques here in clubsnap. coming out for a cup of coffee and prints isn't practiced by the mass of pple here who are mostly, behind a veil of anonmity, by choice or by lack of time/energy/need to meet up and make friends.

    as for the speech thing, yeah i'm not so sure dp could go up to an image in a photo exhibition and drag the photograper along and say "my 5yo son can do better". u might ask, so why does he do that here? well, there are images here in CS that 5yo can do better (i expect in a photo exhibition there'd be some quality), he's just the unlucky sod that has to mouth it off.

    again, he is not "wrong", he's just harsh. i do find the need to repeat that if anyone is out to learn, take his advise WITHOUT the crap, just filter it off. i remember taking worse crap when i was learning, and am still learning, altho i do get a little more respect now.

    i agree with ur last paragraph altho i don't surf those sites. well maybe not everyone has the same level of passion that is "expected" of photographers?


    edited for typos.
    I agree with the following abt coffee. Somehow I always believe to critique a photo properly, u have to criticise it on print. No matter whether pic calibrated or not, u do not have a full impact of the photo. Then to make unjustified comments would serve to confuse the photographer and may serve to misled.

    I also noticed that the forumers here tend to judge the std of a photographer by just one or two pics. It does not help anyone. Being judgemental limits a photographer's development and progress. They will fail to see the other side of the picture. I remember what Catchlights said before, a photographer must be humble and I noticed that photographers like him, Joho, etc, etc practised this attitude even though they are of a certain std. This is one mindset that even a person who is trying to be a teacher shd practised. Without humility, it is like end of story. U will never know what your apprentice can come out with.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Pablo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Hi,

    How long has DP or many of the others that play harsh critic been in Club Snap and how many times have they seen the same thing that bothers them ?

    Probably a long time and seen it many times.

    Therefore maybe they have once been more helpfull in their comments,but, now they are sick of seeing the same thing and are not so polite any more.

    I don't say this as an excuse, more as, maybe they should give it a break for 12 months.

    Apart from sharing photography, CS is about teaching and learning photography if I have it right.

    When someone posts with the request for critisism, are they about to read any further if the opening words are, "That's crap" or "my 5yr old can do better".

    How helpfull is this, no matter how good or politically correct the rest of the words are ?

    Why not show some wisdom and tallent in words chosen when writing a remark; I am shure it will be taken with respect.

    A little saying, "the first to throw a punch is the first to run out of ideas".


    Cheers

    I am not throwing a punch here by the way. Just offering my view.
    Time, is an effortless construction :)

  10. #30

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    I agree with Pablo.

    I'm as anal about minor details as DP is (probably more so). And just about as tactless as a many on the forum would agree (also probably more so).

    I am trying to get better and have (very recently) learnt that offering a bit of praise before a critique helps in the criticism being accepted more readily.

    I'm not advocating that you lie, but one can always find something honestly good to say about anything (no matter how small it might be).

    Mary Poppins was right when she sang; "A little spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down".

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by jOhO
    wrong advise where it's truly WRONG, for example, in M mode, dialing in ev compensation changes the exposure of your image. it changes the METER not the EXPOSURE (since u are in M).. this is the BEST example of WRONG advise i have seen many times in CS.
    The meter just provides a reference value, a 'balanced' reading, depending on the modes. How you dial in the ev value is up to your preference of having more exposure than the referenced value or less (lighter or darker in other words)

    Quote Originally Posted by jOhO
    as for messy hair, say, it's generally accepted that UNINTENTIONAL messy hair, as dp has pointed out, usually, if not, always, spoils a good image, esp a close up head or half body shot. his problem (if anyone deems so) is that he's quite anal about it. as i said, i dun find him rude or harsh YET... so, he's on my "friends" list...
    And how do you judge that from simply looking at a photograph? You could only guess what the photographer is thinking through your own prespective.

    Quote Originally Posted by jOhO
    ur approach to giving critiques on a more personal level is commendable, however, it's out of context to this forum, we are talking about giving critiques here in clubsnap. coming out for a cup of coffee and prints isn't practiced by the mass of pple here who are mostly, behind a veil of anonmity, by choice or by lack of time/energy/need to meet up and make friends.

    as for the speech thing, yeah i'm not so sure dp could go up to an image in a photo exhibition and drag the photograper along and say "my 5yo son can do better". u might ask, so why does he do that here? well, there are images here in CS that 5yo can do better (i expect in a photo exhibition there'd be some quality), he's just the unlucky sod that has to mouth it off.
    Assumptions? When did I say talk over coffee or prints? Like I said I use the PM dialog box because it's more sincere, that's for 1. As for how we teach, that's only one way to do it. And btw, yeah we aren't going to be THAT polite to a guy who say that up front in so many people. Anyway, according to DP, if he's willing to do it here, doing it in front of 20 people isn't going to be much different.

    Quote Originally Posted by jOhO
    again, he is not "wrong", he's just harsh. i do find the need to repeat that if anyone is out to learn, take his advise WITHOUT the crap, just filter it off. i remember taking worse crap when i was learning, and am still learning, altho i do get a little more respect now.

    i agree with ur last paragraph altho i don't surf those sites. well maybe not everyone has the same level of passion that is "expected" of photographers?


    edited for typos.
    Let me see, we are human. If somebody says your gf an old f**k and offers you the better choice of her having plastic surgery, are we going to filter off the crap and take that advise? Hey maybe he meant it, but he's just 'harsh.'


    Assumptions again. I engage real people over here if possible. I'm in engineering and business, and we often have to work in groups on projects in university, and I have some external events to work with as well. And yes, I've had seen a friend of mine, who incidentally happen to be 1/2 french, almost prepared to slap a dude who said 'french is a shitty language'. There's some more I could relate to, but it isn't neccessary.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by jOhO
    as for messy hair, say, it's generally accepted that UNINTENTIONAL messy hair, as dp has pointed out, usually, if not, always, spoils a good image, esp a close up head or half body shot. his problem (if anyone deems so) is that he's quite anal about it.
    Where is it "generally" accepted? Who accepts it? At best, it is a rule of thumb, which means that it is appropriate in many situations, but it is not an absolute requirement. And in fact, to follow such rules of thumb blindly numbs creativity.

    Quote Originally Posted by jOhO
    again, he is not "wrong", he's just harsh. i do find the need to repeat that if anyone is out to learn, take his advise WITHOUT the crap, just filter it off. i remember taking worse crap when i was learning, and am still learning, altho i do get a little more respect now.
    His "advice" is not the gospel truth. If the great masters had followed his "advice" when they were newbies, it's likely they would have been too obssessed with unimportant details and would not have produced their masterpieces. See http://forums.clubsnap.com/showthread.php?t=204953 for what I mean.

    DP's "advice" is not "right". At best, it is factual (eg one eye big one eye small). However, most of it is highly opinionated (eg how well a bikini fits-- personally I don't trust such advice from a guy-- and in any case, it's subjective, some like it tighter, some like it looser) and reeks of a "I must always dot the i's and cross the t's" personality. In other words, it's very orthodox and conservative, and being a slave to "rules".

    While being orthodox and conservative gives you a frame of reference on how to take "good" pictures, it is also very boring and it limits your creative ability. Just like in fashion, where designers break the rules to come up with new concepts and the world is better for it, great photography too cannot be limited by DP's sense of what is right and what is not.

    In any case, that's not the main point of dissatisfaction with DP, in my view. You think people at the receiving end should just filter his crap and take his so-called "advice". While I agree that people should be stronger, I think DP should re-examine his mentality and motivations for using harsh language. It benefits no one, least of all him-- unless he gets a kick from using harsh language in the name of free speech.
    Last edited by waileong; 26th June 2006 at 09:27 AM.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong
    Where is it "generally" accepted? Who accepts it? At best, it is a rule of thumb, which means that it is appropriate in many situations, but it is not an absolute requirement. And in fact, to follow such rules of thumb blindly numbs creativity.



    His "advice" is not the gospel truth. If the great masters had followed his "advice" when they were newbies, it's likely they would have been too obssessed with unimportant details and would not have produced their masterpieces. See http://forums.clubsnap.com/showthread.php?t=204953 for what I mean.

    DP's "advice" is not "right". At best, it is factual (eg one eye big one eye small). However, most of it is highly opinionated (eg how well a bikini fits-- personally I don't trust such advice from a guy-- and in any case, it's subjective, some like it tighter, some like it looser) and reeks of a "I must always dot the i's and cross the t's" personality. In other words, it's very orthodox and conservative, and being a slave to "rules".

    While being orthodox and conservative gives you a frame of reference on how to take "good" pictures, it is also very boring and it limits your creative ability. Just like in fashion, where designers break the rules to come up with new concepts and the world is better for it, great photography too cannot be limited by DP's sense of what is right and what is not.

    In any case, that's not the main point of dissatisfaction with DP, in my view. You think people at the receiving end should just filter his crap and take his so-called "advice". While I agree that people should be stronger, I think DP should re-examine his mentality and motivations for using harsh language. It benefits no one, least of all him-- unless he gets a kick from using harsh language in the name of free speech.

    Holy crap! They all just sound like DP!! LOL

  14. #34

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong
    Where is it "generally" accepted? Who accepts it? At best, it is a rule of thumb, which means that it is appropriate in many situations, but it is not an absolute requirement. And in fact, to follow such rules of thumb blindly numbs creativity.



    His "advice" is not the gospel truth. If the great masters had followed his "advice" when they were newbies, it's likely they would have been too obssessed with unimportant details and would not have produced their masterpieces. See http://forums.clubsnap.com/showthread.php?t=204953 for what I mean.

    DP's "advice" is not "right". At best, it is factual (eg one eye big one eye small). However, most of it is highly opinionated (eg how well a bikini fits-- personally I don't trust such advice from a guy-- and in any case, it's subjective, some like it tighter, some like it looser) and reeks of a "I must always dot the i's and cross the t's" personality. In other words, it's very orthodox and conservative, and being a slave to "rules".

    While being orthodox and conservative gives you a frame of reference on how to take "good" pictures, it is also very boring and it limits your creative ability. Just like in fashion, where designers break the rules to come up with new concepts and the world is better for it, great photography too cannot be limited by DP's sense of what is right and what is not.

    In any case, that's not the main point of dissatisfaction with DP, in my view. You think people at the receiving end should just filter his crap and take his so-called "advice". While I agree that people should be stronger, I think DP should re-examine his mentality and motivations for using harsh language. It benefits no one, least of all him-- unless he gets a kick from using harsh language in the name of free speech.

    I don't agree with all that he's said but I don't know why you're being so adamant about putting him down either.
    I don't think you're doing this for the benefit of the people whose work he is critiquing. you actually...sound like him now!!!

  15. #35

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by mattlock
    I don't agree with all that he's said but I don't know why you're being so adamant about putting him down either.
    I don't think you're doing this for the benefit of the people whose work he is critiquing. you actually...sound like him now!!!
    Ooooooooh, I'll take note of that.

    I'm not here to put him down per se. However, there are some people here who want to justify this blatant style of criticism which involves going into minutiae and putting down other people in a crass manner. This I do not agree with, I don't think it's helpful to anyone, hence my posts.
    Last edited by waileong; 26th June 2006 at 11:05 AM.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong
    Ooooooooh, I'll take note of that.

    I'm not here to put him down per se. However, there are some people here who want to justify this blatant style of criticism which involves going into minutiae and putting down other people in a crass manner. This I do not agree with, I don't think it's helpful to anyone, hence my posts.
    yeah well....I think after awhile it's quite funny. at the end of the day you've gotta appreciate the fact that DP does give in detail criticism. some people give criticisms based on feeling, some on technicalities. so it's good to have different people criticising. so his attitude is not very appreciated but then I think tolerance for diversity is key since we'll always find people that we don't like.

    And give the "newbies" a break I don't think they're so naive either to take one person's criticisms as the be-all and end-all.

    I'm sure deep inside DP is warm & cuddly like a piece of deep fried tofu...but just misunderstood like one of those pieces of smelly tofu...

  17. #37

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    I STILL HATE MESSY HAIR!

    In an attempt to keep this thread from being personal, as many are trying to, I will not response to anyone in particular, and I will be broad in my response.

    I believe all comments, critiques or criticisms must be based on facts. If it's not factual, then it's not work the paper it's written on.

    Minute details, how trivial and yet how important they are. How such carelessness can ruin a perfectly good image. We go thru all the trouble of engaging a model, makeup artist, stylist, studio or outdoor set, getting up in the wee hours to catch the morning light, there are just so many things we do to get that image, and yet, based on what I hear from some, I am way off base because I am zeroing in on the littloe things? Well, if that little thing is a problem, you bet I will zero in on it. You you choose not to, be my guest.

    I anyone thinks my harsh but direct comments are too much for them, please, I beg you, to put me on your ignore list. I don't care. If the admin tells me that I have to be nice to everyone and post nice comments, I will leave CS in a flash. Some of your comments about my delivery style are quite on the spot, and I take note, but if that picture is so bad, I will continue to say "it sucks", and if that picture is worse than what my 5 yo god son can do, bet you, I will say it.

    Back to messy hair. Shoot the traditional way first, then deviate. If you want messy hair, style it that way, plan the shoot accordingly.

    And I an OTing in my own thread and breaking my original promise not to be personal in this response. This one is for Mattlock. If you know where to find the deep fried smelly tofu, please let me know. Serious craving for some
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  18. #38
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    I STILL HATE MESSY HAIR!

    In an attempt to keep this thread from being personal, as many are trying to, I will not response to anyone in particular, and I will be broad in my response.

    I believe all comments, critiques or criticisms must be based on facts. If it's not factual, then it's not work the paper it's written on.

    Minute details, how trivial and yet how important they are. How such carelessness can ruin a perfectly good image. We go thru all the trouble of engaging a model, makeup artist, stylist, studio or outdoor set, getting up in the wee hours to catch the morning light, there are just so many things we do to get that image, and yet, based on what I hear from some, I am way off base because I am zeroing in on the littloe things? Well, if that little thing is a problem, you bet I will zero in on it. You you choose not to, be my guest.

    I anyone thinks my harsh but direct comments are too much for them, please, I beg you, to put me on your ignore list. I don't care. If the admin tells me that I have to be nice to everyone and post nice comments, I will leave CS in a flash. Some of your comments about my delivery style are quite on the spot, and I take note, but if that picture is so bad, I will continue to say "it sucks", and if that picture is worse than what my 5 yo god son can do, bet you, I will say it.

    Back to messy hair. Shoot the traditional way first, then deviate. If you want messy hair, style it that way, plan the shoot accordingly.

    And I an OTing in my own thread and breaking my original promise not to be personal in this response. This one is for Mattlock. If you know where to find the deep fried smelly tofu, please let me know. Serious craving for some
    I don't think the issue with u is on content. I think the main issue is your delivery which as what u say spot on. I remember in one post, pp commented abt u saying something like "piss on your face" or something like that, I dun think that is acceptable. It is uncalled for. As for if u say, "it sux" provided with the reason why, I dun think why it shd not be so. It is afterall your personal opinion. The only reason why pp are fighting back with u is because of the uncouth method that u are using which is the main issue. It also sound overly judgemental at times.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    I shall be sporting or a lill bit confrontational a lil:

    And how is your critique helping the new guys by putting them down? They know nothing as of yet, they come in humble and there goes you harping 'even my 5 year old son can shoot better than you'

    Dude, are you trying to push people out of photography or in it? Don't give me the 'If they can't take it they can just put me on ignore list or get out of the forum'. That's selfish!

    And I don't quite think selfish people are well respected. Hey they have every right, but oh well, usually they don't care about justifying like you.

    And honestly It's like testing a pri 5 year old kid on Calculus and Random processes and if he got intimidated and start crying, he deserved to be called incompetent. 'Oh and you should practise more'. Hell , likehe would if he felt like a d*ck with all the damage done.

    Fine, If you want to practise these sort of mannerisms, I reckon do it on your own peers. Do it on the doc. Do it on mattlock. Do it on me. Do it on anybody in your own class. Don't do it on anybody who's of less experience than you.
    Last edited by Wisp; 26th June 2006 at 12:26 PM.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    DP, I think you should put a disclaimer as your signature...Replies May Cause Violent Allergies

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