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Thread: Why do I hate messy hair?

  1. #1

    Default Why do I hate messy hair?

    I still hate messy hair. But what is messy hair?

    First of all, there are many beautifully done pictures out tyhere, where the model's hair is messed up. The big difference is that, the messed up hair was intentional. It is part of the look. Here lies the difference.

    Messed up hair vs. messy hair. Messed up hair is part of a look. Messy hair is plain carelessness, lack of attention to details, and bad art direction.

    What exactly is messy hair? We can only let the audience judge on a case by case basis. Every picture will be different. However, if the hairs are going in 9 different directions, chances are, it's messy hair.

    The photographer, if taken the time to stand back and look, will always knows, the hair was part of a messed up look or is plan messy hair.
    deadpoet
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    I still hate messy hair. But what is messy hair?

    First of all, there are many beautifully done pictures out tyhere, where the model's hair is messed up. The big difference is that, the messed up hair was intentional. It is part of the look. Here lies the difference.

    Messed up hair vs. messy hair. Messed up hair is part of a look. Messy hair is plain carelessness, lack of attention to details, and bad art direction.

    What exactly is messy hair? We can only let the audience judge on a case by case basis. Every picture will be different. However, if the hairs are going in 9 different directions, chances are, it's messy hair.

    The photographer, if taken the time to stand back and look, will always knows, the hair was part of a messed up look or is plan messy hair.
    To me, i think a messy hair = 90% tidy, 5-10% out of the norm... mean like only 10% poke out of nowhere when its suppose to be together with the other 90%

    a messed up hair would be about 50-80% going everywhere... thats messed up for good.
    Logging Off. "You have 2,631 messages stored, of a total 400 allowed." don't PM me.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    There's no need to start a thread to justify your own perverse hate of messy hair. As long as you don't try to ram your views down the throats of others, you wouldn't have had to start this thread to begin with.

    The mesy hair bit is just one part of it. You have an eye for detail which is amazing, able to see how much tummies should be tucked in or how poorly a bikini fits. I would love to employ you for certain projects (eg product photography) where such attention to detail is essential. However, the way you put across your views makes it sound like a obssession and a crusade, which really turns people off. It is as if it's your way or the highway. Hence this situation, where you feel you have to start a thread to explain yourself.

    The problem is not about defining what is messy hair, or poor fit bikinis, or one eye big one eye small. It's about why you seem to focus on minutiae that to the exclusion of other things, to the exclusion of the big picture. It's also about how you put your views across, the language and tone you use.

    It is about the way you criticise people. It's because of remarks such as "even a 5 year old can do better" that makes things so difficult. That goes way beyond hyperbole and is meant to put down people, whether you mean it or not.

    You may have the right to speak as you please, but as I've mentioned before, that comes with a cost, in this case, you make enemies, people who will go onto every thread you go to and criticise you, flame you, do everything possible in their power to make life miserable for you.

    If you're polite in your criticism, I'm sure things would have turned out differently. It's up to you of course. Same goes for the other guy, too.

    There are many ways in photography, not just your way or the highway. If you can put your views across while respecting other ways, things will work out easier. While people do not visit CS specifically to make enemies, if they do make enemies with you, they will go out against you. And that would be a great loss for both you and your enemies, because of the time wasted on unproductive sliming and conflict.

    Logging into CS every hour (or day or whatever) to check if someone has reply to yet another personal attack or criticism or argument is in my view a very sad way to live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    I still hate messy hair. But what is messy hair?

    First of all, there are many beautifully done pictures out tyhere, where the model's hair is messed up. The big difference is that, the messed up hair was intentional. It is part of the look. Here lies the difference.

    Messed up hair vs. messy hair. Messed up hair is part of a look. Messy hair is plain carelessness, lack of attention to details, and bad art direction.

    What exactly is messy hair? We can only let the audience judge on a case by case basis. Every picture will be different. However, if the hairs are going in 9 different directions, chances are, it's messy hair.

    The photographer, if taken the time to stand back and look, will always knows, the hair was part of a messed up look or is plan messy hair.
    Last edited by waileong; 24th June 2006 at 12:29 PM.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    I've got a quote for you. It goes like this: "S*it happens". You can't expect 100% perfectly neat hair can you? No matter how well you try to organise the hair, you can't expect perfection.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Dear All,

    Please consider this a gentle reminder. We each have views and I do not think for a moment, name calling is needed to convey your points across. Lets keep it clean. Day by day, this whole forum is slowly degenerating into a place where nobody feels at home and the parts of this forum reeks of animosity. We are slowly trying our best to ensure that this doesn't continue and for that we need everyone's help in making that happen. If you can find it in your heart or mind to take a step back and not further worsen the situation, then I am very sure everyone would be thankful.

    Cheers.
    --
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    I do applaud DP's decision to post and highlight his defination and perspective of messy hair and messed up hair....
    It shows that he does not post "messy hair" for the sake of posting..
    To DP, his stand towards laziness or negligence on the photographer's part not to adjust the hair is totally understanding

    I do agree with him, that very often...some terribly messy hair can totally ruin the photos.

    and i also agreed with some that criticism does not necessarily mean "simon cowell's style"...

    Personally, i think DP is getting too predictable for everyone's taste..
    when someone posted a photo with slightly "off" hair, DP is expected to step in to comment.
    And as a photographer with vast experience(refering to DP), i believe you can also give equal attention to other areas too, rather than the hair or the tummy.

    But this is a open forum, everyone is behind a screen...
    maybe everyone are nice, just that we do not know how to put across over the keyboards..

    Chill...and let live.
    Last edited by cannonball; 24th June 2006 at 03:58 PM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Messed up hair and messy hair.....in my opinion very hard to tell them apart.......something like what is a difference between a genius and a idiot........or the truth from the false........just a very thin line.......

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Waileong. This is me asking you nicely. Take it as a personal favour if you will. Use the ignore function. Life is honestly too short to get worked up. Trust me when i tell you that i have had my own fair share of unpleasant experience.

    I really have no wish to see every thread here in CS become a place for disputes, quarrels and disagreements. This is really not worth your while.

    Thank you.
    --
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  9. #9
    Senior Member GENO's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    I rather have messy hair than no hair! grosssss.....
    Take both its legs down first, then cuts its tail, next is shoot between its eyes:devil:

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong
    There's no need to start a thread to justify your own perverse hate of messy hair. As long as you don't try to ram your views down the throats of others, you wouldn't have had to start this thread to begin with.

    The mesy hair bit is just one part of it. You have an eye for detail which is amazing, able to see how much tummies should be tucked in or how poorly a bikini fits. I would love to employ you for certain projects (eg product photography) where such attention to detail is essential. However, the way you put across your views makes it sound like a obssession and a crusade, which really turns people off. It is as if it's your way or the highway. Hence this situation, where you feel you have to start a thread to explain yourself.

    The problem is not about defining what is messy hair, or poor fit bikinis, or one eye big one eye small. It's about why you seem to focus on minutiae that to the exclusion of other things, to the exclusion of the big picture. It's also about how you put your views across, the language and tone you use.

    It is about the way you criticise people. It's because of remarks such as "even a 5 year old can do better" that makes things so difficult. That goes way beyond hyperbole and is meant to put down people, whether you mean it or not.

    You may have the right to speak as you please, but as I've mentioned before, that comes with a cost, in this case, you make enemies, people who will go onto every thread you go to and criticise you, flame you, do everything possible in their power to make life miserable for you.

    If you're polite in your criticism, I'm sure things would have turned out differently. It's up to you of course. Same goes for the other guy, too.

    There are many ways in photography, not just your way or the highway. If you can put your views across while respecting other ways, things will work out easier. While people do not visit CS specifically to make enemies, if they do make enemies with you, they will go out against you. And that would be a great loss for both you and your enemies, because of the time wasted on unproductive sliming and conflict.
    Logging into CS every hour (or day or whatever) to check if someone has reply to yet another personal attack or criticism or argument is in my view a very sad way to live.
    TO DP,
    Well said by Waileong. I know you have the right of freedom of expression. What abt the rest on the right of being respected? I know pp do not mind criticisms but do it in the right spirit as what Waileong has mentioned. I know u are stubborn on this but well, it is afterall your choice. God gave man free will and that make us different from other creations.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    messy hair or not, it all depends on how the photographer shoot the model to make them looked nice!


    although the same cant be said for armpit hair, nose hair.......

  12. #12

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong
    There's no need to start a thread to justify your own perverse hate of messy hair. As long as you don't try to ram your views down the throats of others, you wouldn't have had to start this thread to begin with.

    The mesy hair bit is just one part of it. You have an eye for detail which is amazing, able to see how much tummies should be tucked in or how poorly a bikini fits. I would love to employ you for certain projects (eg product photography) where such attention to detail is essential. However, the way you put across your views makes it sound like a obssession and a crusade, which really turns people off. It is as if it's your way or the highway. Hence this situation, where you feel you have to start a thread to explain yourself.

    The problem is not about defining what is messy hair, or poor fit bikinis, or one eye big one eye small. It's about why you seem to focus on minutiae that to the exclusion of other things, to the exclusion of the big picture. It's also about how you put your views across, the language and tone you use.

    It is about the way you criticise people. It's because of remarks such as "even a 5 year old can do better" that makes things so difficult. That goes way beyond hyperbole and is meant to put down people, whether you mean it or not.

    You may have the right to speak as you please, but as I've mentioned before, that comes with a cost, in this case, you make enemies, people who will go onto every thread you go to and criticise you, flame you, do everything possible in their power to make life miserable for you.

    If you're polite in your criticism, I'm sure things would have turned out differently. It's up to you of course. Same goes for the other guy, too.

    There are many ways in photography, not just your way or the highway. If you can put your views across while respecting other ways, things will work out easier. While people do not visit CS specifically to make enemies, if they do make enemies with you, they will go out against you. And that would be a great loss for both you and your enemies, because of the time wasted on unproductive sliming and conflict.

    Logging into CS every hour (or day or whatever) to check if someone has reply to yet another personal attack or criticism or argument is in my view a very sad way to live.

    i agree wholeheartedly!

  13. #13
    Senior Member jOhO's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    So far i think the disucssion here (in this thread, i haven't been following others recently) has been very civil and i haven't yet seen any animosity. so that's a good start!

    as for dp's firm stand on what he believes in vs him putting that stand down throats in a not so nice tone, well... we don't need another thread on that.

    i don't have that firm a stand on messy hair, but i don't disagree with dp. as for his tone and method of delivering his messages, he hasn't offended me... yet. *shrug*

    although waileong makes perfect sense, and he's probably speaking for pple who ARE offended by dp.

    conclusion? ignore function is the best i can think of.

    one thing just came to mind, in a way it's an analogy to the benefit of dp.

    plenty of advise given here on CS is plain WRONG. it's not a matter of opinion, but theory. up till now, i don't think i've ever seen dp post WRONG advise, just harsh and rude perhaps. now the analogy, would you have a teacher teach you the wrong things (politely or otherwise) or have someone pointing you in the right direction, at times rudely or harshly? for those who truly want to learn, the answer is obvious.

    truly, some of the images posted here are horrendous. mostly i click the next button and move on. but dp sees it in himself to contribute to the greater good (as i mentioned i have not seen "wrong" advise from him) of the community where someone else (like myself) just couldn't be bothered sometimes. to those who are offended by him, ignore, but for me, who's always learning, i can filter out his harsh words and tones and take the advise objectively, IF he ever seriously critiques my work (he hasn't really, to date).

    enough already about dp and his tones and harshness and what not. take the advise, bin the other things if it upsets you.

    i have to voice out that i agree with him that some of the images here plain SUX. but hey, i was there at one stage, and i still do images that sux, i prob just dun post them up....

    as for dp making enemies, waileong it's good advise that you're giving him, but if he doesn't take heed, it's his problem. and i have mentioned this a few times on threads where dp is the topic (or off-topic!) that the people that seem the have a problem with his comments are usually NOT the pple that he has directed his comments to (usually the thread starter)! how wierd is that?????

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    What's wrong advice? That's easy. Pushing your own preset views on other people on how they should shoot their photographs. In the end, especially for the new guys, if they were to follow him, they would lose all inviduality of making 'their' own photograph and use his standards as a rule.

    Where I am, we would actually get our 'student's to come up and present us their photograph and talk about it, rather than us commenting on it. Think it like an audition.
    I find doing such an approach gives them time to think about their photograph and why they like it or so on without the influence of the observers yet. Only when they finished and solidified their stand on their own image would we offer our own suggestions.

    I do critique the images here,but I send them by private PM. I see no need to engage in the public domain which may confuse the viewer.

    Anyway, photography is so subjective, so nothing is wrong by right whatsoever. What I find naseauting (think I got the spelling wrong..again too lazy ha) is the lack of initiative and the lack of an open mind. Most of all, the lack of drive and passion! Everybody's here's to save face. Look up APUG.org or photo.net. You'd see the difference.

    Even in western society if you were to approach people in that kind of manner, you either get ordered out of the room or get slapped. Have no illusions of 'free speech'.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Then let me give you some feedback nicely. This forum is in danger of turning into a jungle and a place to settle scores and for some people to pick on one another. There are people here who just want to insult, criticise, flame and put down one another.

    Such people, well educated and highly skilled as they are, have no regard for basic courtesy or civility. They will not change simply because you close a few threads or put up a few posts asking people to calm down. They won't change even if you plead with them.

    Do the mods have a 3 strikes and you're out policy? How many insults does it take before the mods take action? How much name-calling? How many personal attacks? How much sarcasm? How many vitriolic attacks?

    This is a tipping point. If the mods do not take any action, don't be surprised on what happens here in future.

    Wai Leong
    ===
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang
    Waileong. This is me asking you nicely. Take it as a personal favour if you will. Use the ignore function. Life is honestly too short to get worked up. Trust me when i tell you that i have had my own fair share of unpleasant experience.

    I really have no wish to see every thread here in CS become a place for disputes, quarrels and disagreements. This is really not worth your while.

    Thank you.
    Last edited by waileong; 25th June 2006 at 12:14 PM.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong
    Then let me give you some feedback nicely. This forums is in danger of turning into a jungle and a place to settle scores and for some people to pick on one another. There are people here who just want to insult, criticise, flame and put down one another.

    Such people, well educated and highly skilled as they are, have no regard for basic courtesy or civility. They will not change simply because you close a few threads or put up a few posts asking people to calm down. They won't change even if you plead with them.

    Do the mods have a 3 strikes and you're out policy? How many insults does it take before the mods take action? How much name-calling? How many personal attacks? How much sarcasm? How many vitriolic attacks?

    This is a tipping point. If the mods do not take any action, don't be surprised on what happens here in future.

    Wai Leong
    ===
    Dear Waileong,

    Believe me when i say that something is honestly behind done right now behind the scene to resolve issues such as the one you mentioned. I do appreciate the fact that you decide to engage me directly and trying to address the root of this issue rather than continue exchanging views with others.

    3 three strike system is not practical as other users may abuse this system so we rather approach this one a case by case basis. This gives us Moderators and Administrators abit more time as all of us hold day jobs and being on CS 24/7 is not a luxury we can afford. In fact, we would like to have members actually take the initiative by being more tactful when posting. This would benefit everyone and the forum tremendously. However, if there is anyone who is honestly unable to get along, then i ask that you use the ignore function. It is probably not going to be easy but i do ask that you try.

    So i urge you to have faith in us. Already, if you look around the forum carefully, something is already being done. Subtlely perhaps but something is still being done nonetheless. Please remember that this will be an on-going process with new members signing on and i urge everyone to be patient and be more tactful. We do have a good thing going here. Lets not ruin it for ourselves.

    Anyhow, this thread will be closed soon as i believe it has served its purpose.

    Thank you.
    --
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    I'm not in any current disputes, as far as I know. But in any case, I don't think ignore works. Why? Because the problem is that others (ie not involved in the disputes) who come will see all the insults, slime, personal attacks, sarcasm, vitriol, etc. and they will be turned off by these. Even if they continue to participate, they will see that the moment they do something that offends such people, they will get attacked. So if you don't change the situation, if you just tell people to ignore each other, that doesn't solve the problem.

    Why close this thread? There are no personal attacks going on here. We're using it to discuss what's going on. I think it has value.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang
    However, if there is anyone who is honestly unable to get along, then i ask that you use the ignore function. It is probably not going to be easy but i do ask that you try.

    Anyhow, this thread will be closed soon as i believe it has served its purpose.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    hmm...i like messy hair! but messed up hair definitely not cos like dca say....gone case liao

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    might as well say stray hair. that's unintentional and spoils the image.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Why do I hate messy hair?

    stray still quite neat leh..

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