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Thread: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Albums

  1. #81
    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Albums

    hi, winson, thanks.

    pmed you. and hope you dun mind your links to my sticky.

  2. #82
    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by shinken
    Just curious. Are you a wedding photographer by any chance? I mean, either as a freelance or full-timer?
    actually i feel the same way as him (waileong).

    not just that as competitors doing undercut, somehow and understandably professional photographers dun like to have to spend extra or even frustrating efforts from couples only looking for cheaper deals and using those cheaper photographers as an excuse, and also dun like to be compared (unfairly) with the latter or even friends helping in wedding photography who took the same angle after them, making the couples compariing similar shots and wondering why the pros are paid much higher when the learners took the same angle.

    that feeling is understandable, with the volume of frustration that is being poured out. the only thing i noticed is that the level of pride upheld and a denial of being threatened or fear of being compared with in the mindset of "i'm better, so why should i be afraid of anything"..... but i believed in seeing it from multiple point of views, that including understanding of couples who cannot afford more than $2k for their wedding shots but still hope they can have beautifully shot pictures and that they may not understand how much they should pay (honestly who would know? everyone almost just get married once, without much prior experience unless they are wedding planners. only professionals know it well). i also believed in seeing it from the viewpoint of the starters or those just helping out with their relatives or friends - they have their difficulty, dilemnas and frustrations too.

    and i believe that photographers who sees and shoots the most beautiful and most meaning thing in life should be nice ppl too, so it sometimes can be slightly upsetting to see the subtle hostility that comes in when business is in view.

    p.s. i'm not a wedding photographer but have some little puny experience before. so no conflicts of interest. just sharing my thoughts from a non-professional point of view. i admit that i'm still not in any position to judge the professionals who are more experienced and faces probably more frustration that what i can imagine.

  3. #83
    Senior Member jOhO's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Albums

    i need to add one thing.

    two pple can shoot and process the exact same shot, and one can be more expensive, and the other cheaper. but the more expensive one gets selected, all else held constant (no of years experience, pro/freelancer, etc etc)

    the only real reason why i feel the "more expensive" person gets the job?

    "ren yuan".

    we should not fail to remember that wedding photographers need the personality and character that customers can trust, can attune to, and have rapport with. it's not just about shooting photos.

  4. #84

    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    I didn't ask to refute or agree with waileong.

    Vince asked "what is the real reason to keep pressuring him/her to raise his prices?", Gilbert replied "the real reasons is the cost of running the business!"

    Then Waileong said

    "The real reason is because some photogs feel the pain of being undercut by people they consider to be inferior to them.

    The real reason is that they feel this undercutting is unfair.

    The real reason is that they feel that part-timers and freelancers are ruining the market for them."


    I found it interesting for Waileong to speak on behalf of professional photographers and dispute Gilbert's opinion. Vince's question was simple enough. What's the pressure to increase prices. Gilbert's was straightforward enough. Cost of running a business. But Waileong's dispute seems totally off-topic. Maybe he was talking about why (pro) photogs said what they said. But nevertheless, I feel that he's going off-topic in what may be perceived (probably mistakenly) to be a somewhat aggressive stance towards pro photogs.

    Oh yes, my take on the (off-topic) issue - there will always be undercutters. Some pros will suffer and will retaliate by joining the undercutters. These people will realise after some time they are either making a loss, or are doing too much for too little money. These people will leave the industry. New undercutters will join the industry, and the cycle continues. There are so many sob stories of pro photogs and freelance photogs who want to turn pro, but whine about how difficult it is to make money. Most of the time, if not all the time, they are partly responsible for this phenomenon.

    Perhaps the pros and the observers are talking about quite different things altogether.

    Quote Originally Posted by zoossh
    actually i feel the same way as him (waileong).

    not just that as competitors doing undercut, somehow and understandably professional photographers dun like to have to spend extra or even frustrating efforts from couples only looking for cheaper deals and using those cheaper photographers as an excuse, and also dun like to be compared (unfairly) with the latter or even friends helping in wedding photography who took the same angle after them, making the couples compariing similar shots and wondering why the pros are paid much higher when the learners took the same angle.

    that feeling is understandable, with the volume of frustration that is being poured out. the only thing i noticed is that the level of pride upheld and a denial of being threatened or fear of being compared with in the mindset of "i'm better, so why should i be afraid of anything"..... but i believed in seeing it from multiple point of views, that including understanding of couples who cannot afford more than $2k for their wedding shots but still hope they can have beautifully shot pictures and that they may not understand how much they should pay (honestly who would know? everyone almost just get married once, without much prior experience unless they are wedding planners. only professionals know it well). i also believed in seeing it from the viewpoint of the starters or those just helping out with their relatives or friends - they have their difficulty, dilemnas and frustrations too.

    and i believe that photographers who sees and shoots the most beautiful and most meaning thing in life should be nice ppl too, so it sometimes can be slightly upsetting to see the subtle hostility that comes in when business is in view.

    p.s. i'm not a wedding photographer but have some little puny experience before. so no conflicts of interest. just sharing my thoughts from a non-professional point of view. i admit that i'm still not in any position to judge the professionals who are more experienced and faces probably more frustration that what i can imagine.

  5. #85
    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by shinken
    there will always be undercutters. Some pros will suffer and will retaliate by joining the undercutters. These people will realise after some time they are either making a loss, or are doing too much for too little money. These people will leave the industry. New undercutters will join the industry, and the cycle continues.
    likewise undercutters will "either making a loss, or are doing too much for too little money", and probably more so becos they lack the resources and knowledge to cheaper resources, and so likewise they are unlikely to stay in the industry as much as those who price down to join them. what do you think?

    i dun necessarily think waileong is being out of topic. i agree with the cost of running the business, but what he stated may have been an additional modifying factor to the attitude of how some (whether a proportion or a minority) professional wedding photographers hold.
    Last edited by zoossh; 17th August 2006 at 03:51 PM.

  6. #86

    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by zoossh
    likewise undercutters will "either making a loss, or are doing too much for too little money", and probably more so becos they lack the resources and knowledge to cheaper resources, and so likewise they are unlikely to stay in the industry as much as those who price down to join them. what do you think?
    I think...
    on "lacking resources and knowledge to cheaper resources"
    First part: Lacking resources is a result of not having calculated all costs incurred in every shoot. If there had been proper cost break down, the "lacking resources" part wouldn't be much of an issue. It's exactly because of unrealistic pricing that a group of photogs "lack resources" (notice that I'm not suggesting any figure here, just hypothesising a scenario).

    Second part: As far as I can tell, Singaporeans are generally savvy when it comes to finding lower prices, and photographers are very Singaporean in this aspect.

    on "so likewise they are unlikely to stay in the industry as much as those who price down to join them. "

    If we're talking about photogs (freelance and full time alike) giving up and leaving the industry, pricing down is not a problem. Undercutting to get business is not a problem. It is afterall, the quickest way to get business (undercutting). The problem is with unrealistic pricing. Whereby the price did not take into account of certain costs, which are not immediately obvious, but only gets more noticeable down the road. Without careful calculation, these people will one day start scratching their head and wonder where "all the money they made" go to. They'll be wondering "how come my business so good and yet I didn't seem to have earned much???".

    There's of course, those who had done their sums and made sure their costs are covered. Amen to these people. But at some point, they'll suddenly be struck with the awareness that "for a 16 hour job which is not just thankless, I still get so many complaints and unrealistic expectations, and I have only earned $X???"

    These people will start being disillusioned, will start losing their passion to shoot, will start shooting mechanically ("they pay me $X only what! Why bother?"), and eventually leave the industry. While brides on the other hand post complains about these people during their exit phase.

    Then there will be newcomers who think "wah, each wedding can earn $X ah? I just charge $100 less, I can get the business too! One month, 4 weddings, I'll be $XX richer!" ... and on the other hand brides will go "Wah, his works is so good, even if he's inexperienced, he's worth a chance! I think he's a steal!" .

    And the cycle begins again.

    What I think above, I have seen parallels in real life.
    Last edited by shinken; 17th August 2006 at 04:26 PM.

  7. #87

    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by shinken
    But at some point, they'll suddenly be struck with the awareness that "for a 16 hour job which is not just thankless, I still get so many complaints and unrealistic expectations, and I have only earned $X???"
    I think most working people (outside of the photography business) will feel the same way about their current jobs too, "for a 12 hour job plus extra unpaid hours of OT which is not just thankless, I still get so much workload, so many complaints and unrealistic expectations from my boss, colleagues, and clients and I have only earned $X???"

  8. #88
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Albums

    From undercutting to job frustrations, sigh…….

    In any trade or professions, there are always the best, the most expensive, the cheapo, the average, etc. All of them sell or charge differently. Some are rich, some are struggling, and the majorities are average. There will always be ABC market, A for top price and quality, B for average and C for cheap but not necessarily in quality.

    Hotels for example, 5 stars, 3 stars, etc. occupancy rate at 90% or higher? Hotel 81’s occupancy at 150%? Most hotels have their selling points, pricing and market. Most of them are doing OK.

    Look at the 80/20 rules, benchmark yourself at the top 20 and not fuss over the 80. Suntze said, “Fight with your strength, not your weakness.”

    Kind thoughts,

  9. #89
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    If the people who wish to undercut are perfectly happy with their profit margin and are able to keep their costs to a level sufficient to give them a happy profit margin, then there isn't any real need to pressure him/her to raise his prices.

    There have been comments by professional photographers that they are not worried about the undercutters. This is probably because they have reached a level where the demand for their services surpasses their capacity to take all jobs offered to them. Nevertheless, if there is no or unhappiness or issue on undercutters as far as the pros are concerned, again why pressure or keep drumming into the undercutters heads to raise their prices?

    The undercutters are happy with their prices/profit margins and get the customers who seek their services. The pros are happy with their higher price ranges and get another group of customers. At the end of the day, isn't everyone happy with what they do? Is there then a need to impose your own ideals onto that of another (ie the ideals of high prices on a undercutter who is perfectly happy with his own low price strategies)



    P.S. I'm using the label undercutters as an easy way to refer to this group of people.



    Quote Originally Posted by shinken
    I didn't ask to refute or agree with waileong.

    Vince asked "what is the real reason to keep pressuring him/her to raise his prices?", Gilbert replied "the real reasons is the cost of running the business!"

    Then Waileong said

    "The real reason is because some photogs feel the pain of being undercut by people they consider to be inferior to them.

    The real reason is that they feel this undercutting is unfair.

    The real reason is that they feel that part-timers and freelancers are ruining the market for them."

    I found it interesting for Waileong to speak on behalf of professional photographers and dispute Gilbert's opinion. Vince's question was simple enough. What's the pressure to increase prices. Gilbert's was straightforward enough. Cost of running a business. But Waileong's dispute seems totally off-topic. Maybe he was talking about why (pro) photogs said what they said. But nevertheless, I feel that he's going off-topic in what may be perceived (probably mistakenly) to be a somewhat aggressive stance towards pro photogs.

  10. #90
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Now I see why there are so many suckers in the market who can virtually earn more $$$$$ than ruining themselves by earning less. I didn't know there is still such people around in Singapore. Very rare.....very rare indeed........happy to earn less money........

    We were never worried in the first place of any undercutters. I did not know that when we try educated some new photographers to earn more money would turn out to be the a let down. I don't think we were imposing our ideals. I think it was still more of helping them as we were once a newbie as well. We were taught not sell our service too low.

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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by Pro Image
    Now I see why there are so many suckers in the market who can virtually earn more $$$$$ than ruining themselves by earning less. I didn't know there is still such people around in Singapore. Very rare.....very rare indeed........happy to earn less money........

    We were never worried in the first place of any undercutters. I did not know that when we try educated some new photographers to earn more money would turn out to be the a let down. I don't think we were imposing our ideals. I think it was still more of helping them as we were once a newbie as well. We were taught not sell our service too low.
    Newbies or undercutters, learn from the Pros. Benchmark yourself with the top and the best, develop your style, quality, marketing, pricing, etc. Free advices on CS, don't fight good intent, never argue with monies. Do well and stay in the business, for passion and for money.

    There are 20K weddings a year? 100 pros? 200 semi-pros? The market is big enough for all.

    Kind thoughts
    Buy more coffee table books from me

  12. #92

    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    If the people who wish to undercut are perfectly happy with their profit margin and are able to keep their costs to a level sufficient to give them a happy profit margin, then there isn't any real need to pressure him/her to raise his prices.
    Well then I agree with you, there's no need to pressure him/her to raise his/her prices. In fact, there isn't even any need to pressure anyone to raise prices even if anyone is making unhappy losses. To each his (and her) own.

  13. #93
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by Winsonapm
    Newbies or undercutters, learn from the Pros. Benchmark yourself with the top and the best, develop your style, quality, marketing, pricing, etc. Free advices on CS, don't fight good intent, never argue with monies. Do well and stay in the business, for passion and for money.

    There are 20K weddings a year? 100 pros? 200 semi-pros? The market is big enough for all.

    Kind thoughts
    Buy more coffee table books from me
    hehe....so anyone undercut your coffee table books price?????

  14. #94

    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Albums

    i only got two hands to shoot a wedding per day, so not worry undercutters.
    Eat breath LIVERPOOL!!!

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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Albums

    Quote Originally Posted by smurfman
    i only got two hands to shoot a wedding per day, so not worry undercutters.
    But I thought you hate shooting weddings?

  16. #96

    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Albums

    Quote Originally Posted by Pro Image
    But I thought you hate shooting weddings?
    I hate it, but still need to do it.

    got 2 baby to feed............
    Eat breath LIVERPOOL!!!

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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by Pro Image
    hehe....so anyone undercut your coffee table books price?????
    Nick Shifu, thank you for asking. Unlike Wedding Photography, the entry barrier is high. I’ve no doubt that the competition will happen soon. In fact, we’re creating a bit of a headache for current providers for photo albums. With our prices, we’ll be seen as an “undercutter”. For the smaller set-up using color printers or copiers, the quality is unrivalled. As your vendor, you do not mind me spoiling the market, right?

    Competition is healthy, be it quality, price or service. Helps to improvise and improve. I would like to feel that we’ve creating a standard for our competitors to follow.

    When are you getting your samples printed? Would be my honors printing for you, this thread was a key reason in our offering this service to Wedding Photogs.

  18. #98
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by Winsonapm
    Nick Shifu, thank you for asking. Unlike Wedding Photography, the entry barrier is high. I’ve no doubt that the competition will happen soon. In fact, we’re creating a bit of a headache for current providers for photo albums. With our prices, we’ll be seen as an “undercutter”. For the smaller set-up using color printers or copiers, the quality is unrivalled. As your vendor, you do not mind me spoiling the market, right?

    Competition is healthy, be it quality, price or service. Helps to improvise and improve. I would like to feel that we’ve creating a standard for our competitors to follow.

    When are you getting your samples printed? Would be my honors printing for you, this thread was a key reason in our offering this service to Wedding Photogs.

    Winson,

    Pro image is not Nick Goh,Nick Goh is Enchanted. Pro image is Danny.

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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by Max 2.8
    Winson,

    Pro image is not Nick Goh,Nick Goh is Enchanted. Pro image is Danny.

    Wah Paiseh! Got all the pros mixed up with nick and names, sorry for the embarassment.
    Must go down to kowtow for apologies and give very special discounts.

    Max, thank you for the correction.

    Kind regards

  20. #100
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by Winsonapm
    Wah Paiseh! Got all the pros mixed up with nick and names, sorry for the embarassment.
    Must go down to kowtow for apologies and give very special discounts.

    Max, thank you for the correction.

    Kind regards
    No worries! Me not pro lar. Nick is the pro one......

    Thanks Max bro for the clarification.....hehe.

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