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Thread: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Albums

  1. #41
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by Belle&Sebastain
    not worked up pal. food for thought

    I understand where you coming from lah...

    Just delivered albums to a couple, the smile on their faces....priceless. I am a happy photographer already....ha ha...!

    I really dun want to treat it like a business and worry about this and dat, and stress out by all those numbers...I dun think I'll enjoy shooting weddings any more.

  2. #42

    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by Max 2.8
    I understand where you coming from lah...

    Just delivered albums to a couple, the smile on their faces....priceless. I am a happy photographer already....ha ha...!

    I really dun want to treat it like a business and worry about this and dat, and stress out by all those numbers...I dun think I'll enjoy shooting weddings any more.
    i also finished an album, heehee......

    i dun want to be stress by money as well, that is why i urge you to do your maths and foundation now and sell your service at where your business is viable.

    i wanna shoot great images and make my worth to my clients.

    my bottomline is i will never shoot losing money or time again, wanna make my efforts viable and sustainable in the long run.
    Last edited by Belle&Sebastain; 8th July 2006 at 11:33 PM.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Albums

    yeah and here i am trying to complete a coffee table and u both post this!!

  4. #44
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Albums

    Quote Originally Posted by jOhO
    yeah and here i am trying to complete a coffee table and u both post this!!
    ha ha

    Yah lah, Gilbert I think I take longer time to get what I invest back. But I want people to pay me well because they like my work not because my operating cost is high so they have to pay that price.

    Bottomline, I sucked as a business man....ha ha

  5. #45
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by Max 2.8
    ha ha

    Yah lah, Gilbert I think I take longer time to get what I invest back. But I want people to pay me well because they like my work not because my operating cost is high so they have to pay that price.

    Bottomline, I sucked as a business man....ha ha
    Ok guys......we are safe.......one less competitor..............*PHEW*

  6. #46
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by Pro Image
    Ok guys......we are safe.......one less competitor..............*PHEW*

    Dun know about that yet.... but I do know people who hire me like my work...those who dun appreciate or bargain...I reject them.
    Last edited by TrailsofLife; 9th July 2006 at 12:37 AM.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by Belle&Sebastain
    i also finished an album, heehee......

    i dun want to be stress by money as well, that is why i urge you to do your maths and foundation now and sell your service at where your business is viable.

    i wanna shoot great images and make my worth to my clients.

    my bottomline is i will never shoot losing money or time again, wanna make my efforts viable and sustainable in the long run.

    Actually, maybe you can help me do the math, when we meet for coffee... I failed math, infact, I never pass math before back in school...ha ha.

    Seriously, thanks for your advise and PMs....

    Give me 5 months, I'll increase my pricing...in the mist of tying up with a wedding planner and also a pro wedding shoot shop...

    How much should I charge actually....

  8. #48

    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by Pro Image
    Ok guys......we are safe.......one less competitor..............*PHEW*

    seriously i never view anyone as a competitor so much, in fact i wish more ppl would charge $2-20k for weddings to be the norn so that i can survive the business and make my mum proud of her son.

    i understand now when i started, the pros told me to price myself in the market, otherwise really eat grass liao.

  9. #49

    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by Max 2.8
    Actually, maybe you can help me do the math, when we meet for coffee... I failed math, infact, I never pass math before back in school...ha ha.

    Seriously, thanks for your advise and PMs....

    Give me 5 months, I'll increase my pricing...in the mist of tying up with a wedding planner and also a pro wedding shoot shop...

    How much should I charge actually....

    i want starbucks Banana Flap XL size!!!

    joking, okie kopi shop first, when you made your first $10,000, i want 20 starbucks coupons!

  10. #50
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by Belle&Sebastain
    i want starbucks Banana Flap XL size!!!

    joking, okie kopi shop first, when you made your first $10,000, i want 20 starbucks coupons!

    Can...No prob...

    When I make my first 10k....maybe starbucks is passe liao...ha ha...

  11. #51

    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    hey Max 2.8,

    I think it's perfectly ok not to treat your wedding photography service as a business, in the sense of pandering to mass market tastes so as to make the buck. I have tried that and it's a quick way to be average, or even mediocre.

    I think a pro will still need some business and marketing sense, to meet the bottomline (artists don't have to be starving) and to project your authentic vision (simply to let more people know that you exist and to attract the right type of clients)

    You have a strong graphics design background as you stated. That is already an edge over many other photogs IMO. Do you like designing graphic books in the past? Could try doing a coffeetable book like a Phaidon photo book perhaps? Pure clean layouts.

    Your vision is to present the wedding in BIG BIG books?? Go for it then!

    It's a great way to do exactly what you want and differentiate yourself at the same time.

    I have tried presenting portfolios where each photo is individually matted and presented in a boutique case. I can't say every client appreciated such a format, but it's an alternative to coffeetable books where you can let the photo speak for itself.

    People are making a living doing wedding photography and still retain their artistic voice, I'd say just do wedding photography exactly the way you envision.

  12. #52
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by igpenguin
    hey Max 2.8,

    I think it's perfectly ok not to treat your wedding photography service as a business, in the sense of pandering to mass market tastes so as to make the buck. I have tried that and it's a quick way to be average, or even mediocre.

    I think a pro will still need some business and marketing sense, to meet the bottomline (artists don't have to be starving) and to project your authentic vision (simply to let more people know that you exist and to attract the right type of clients)

    You have a strong graphics design background as you stated. That is already an edge over many other photogs IMO. Do you like designing graphic books in the past? Could try doing a coffeetable book like a Phaidon photo book perhaps? Pure clean layouts.

    Your vision is to present the wedding in BIG BIG books?? Go for it then!

    It's a great way to do exactly what you want and differentiate yourself at the same time.

    I have tried presenting portfolios where each photo is individually matted and presented in a boutique case. I can't say every client appreciated such a format, but it's an alternative to coffeetable books where you can let the photo speak for itself.

    People are making a living doing wedding photography and still retain their artistic voice, I'd say just do wedding photography exactly the way you envision.

    whats phaidon photo book? Photos individually matted? Please advise, i am interested

    I actually like Japanese's presentation. They actually have labs that do up your photos in a book for you. Much like the common coffeetable book but every page is just 1 big pix and the rest of the space are left empty white or black. But I find it hard to sell this because couples want to see alot of photos from their wedding to pay $1k+ for a book like dis.

  13. #53
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by Max 2.8
    whats phaidon photo book? Photos individually matted? Please advise, i am interested

    I actually like Japanese's presentation. They actually have labs that do up your photos in a book for you. Much like the common coffeetable book but every page is just 1 big pix and the rest of the space are left empty white or black. But I find it hard to sell this because couples want to see alot of photos from their wedding to pay $1k+ for a book like dis.
    My album has just one 8x12 image per page, and I sell the album alone for $800 for 24 pages. Come august, I'm increasing the price to $1k since it's selling quite well, already sold six within a month itself, and another 6 more on order.

    Sometimes, less is more, it's not how many images you put in, it's how you convince couples to buy your style that's presented in the form of the book.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by canturn
    My album has just one 8x12 image per page, and I sell the album alone for $800 for 24 pages. Come august, I'm increasing the price to $1k since it's selling quite well, already sold six within a month itself, and another 6 more on order.

    Sometimes, less is more, it's not how many images you put in, it's how you convince couples to buy your style that's presented in the form of the book.
    Fully agree with you man.............it's how you market yourself. Volume photos does not always impress couples but it's good if you can do up 2 versions of it.

    Another thing are contacts which you need to maintain. Does not mean if you photography skills are great means you get jobs. Good portfolio only will help you half way only...........great contacts will lead you all the way. If a photographer tries to be artistic in Singapore, it is very hard to survive. Need to maintain and balance the cheque book. One can be unique and different but at the end of the day, the word PRACTICAL comes into place.

  15. #55
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by Pro Image
    Fully agree with you man.............it's how you market yourself. Volume photos does not always impress couples but it's good if you can do up 2 versions of it.

    Another thing are contacts which you need to maintain. Does not mean if you photography skills are great means you get jobs. Good portfolio only will help you half way only...........great contacts will lead you all the way. If a photographer tries to be artistic in Singapore, it is very hard to survive. Need to maintain and balance the cheque book. One can be unique and different but at the end of the day, the word PRACTICAL comes into place.
    So far, Pro Image, Gilbert and a few other old birds been in this line long enough to give me advice.

    End of the day, if you want to charge high, you got to have that selling point. You can do coffee table book, but bear in mind, it's something that can be easily copied and very soon, everyone will start doing the same thing. Simple analogy, look at Pork floss bun and Roti boy, even those confectionary underneath MRT tracks are selling them!

    Got to give compliments to folks like jOhO who dares to give his photos a signature look that stands out, definitely would appeal to couples who are looking for something different. Certainly hard to copy/replicate and even if it can be done, can take a bit of time, hehe.

  16. #56
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by Pro Image
    Fully agree with you man.............it's how you market yourself. Volume photos does not always impress couples but it's good if you can do up 2 versions of it.

    Another thing are contacts which you need to maintain. Does not mean if you photography skills are great means you get jobs. Good portfolio only will help you half way only...........great contacts will lead you all the way. If a photographer tries to be artistic in Singapore, it is very hard to survive. Need to maintain and balance the cheque book. One can be unique and different but at the end of the day, the word PRACTICAL comes into place.
    Agree with you if you just treat it as a business. Like my ex-job, I dun even need a portfolio to move around agencies. In fact dun even need to do a good job, to get paid by them. Its all about contact, PR skills. Some can swallow it, some cannot

    Now I just want to be honest to myself and my work. Selling it in a honest way.

    Gilbert,

    I'm begining to see your point on the "class" of customer a pro want to attract.
    Last edited by TrailsofLife; 11th July 2006 at 07:37 PM.

  17. #57
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by Max 2.8
    I'm begining to see your point on the "class" of customer a pro want to attract.
    Let's put it this way, there will be couples with budget problems who can only afford a part-timers. I've been getting like 4 phone calls a day regarding their actual day photography, and most of the time, they'll ask things like "how much do you charge ah?". Normally, these phone calls don't last more than 2 minutes because person will try to cut the conversation short so that they can call up another photographer to see if he/she is cheaper.

    It is very tempting to charge low at the beginning. Really. But if you believe your work can sell, and patient enough, the bookings will come. When I started to do this full time, for a good few months I couldn't get any booking in December 2006, and there were so many couples whom I met and many just felt that $1388 for full day was out of their budget. After talking to people like Pro Image and a few others, I stopped showing my works on a laptop and did up a few books instead, upped my price to $1.8k+. In a matter of 3 months, my June and July are fully booked. Nov and Dec are almost full, I'm even booked up to Nov next year. One of the december jobs, I managed to convince couple to part with $3.5k for a day shoot, that's a price that I would never dream of, when I showed the contract to one of the full-time pro I'm sure there are many more talent photographers who can price themselves higher than me, it's a really a matter of learning how to.

    The norm in european countries like Holland is about $4800 for full day shoot based on 200Euros an hour, without albums and some of these photographers' portfolio pale in comparison to many of our photographers here. If every photographer decides to make $2k a norm and minimal market rate, the standards of wedding photography here will definitely go up because people are competiting to produce quality work, by giving more, rather than charging less, giving less and killing themselves on the long run.

    Doing up the sample albums can be costly and really takes a lot of work at first because you're still looking for the direction to go, but it's really worth it.

  18. #58

    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by Max 2.8
    whats phaidon photo book? Photos individually matted? Please advise, i am interested

    I actually like Japanese's presentation. They actually have labs that do up your photos in a book for you. Much like the common coffeetable book but every page is just 1 big pix and the rest of the space are left empty white or black. But I find it hard to sell this because couples want to see alot of photos from their wedding to pay $1k+ for a book like dis.
    ahhhhhhhh.... how can you don't know Phaidon?

    well, you seen photo exhibitions and nice framed, matted prints right? my presentation is without the frames, in a box. i order everything online overseas.

    you should do exactly the presentation you want, forget about couples who want you to do something you don't want to do.

  19. #59
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    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by canturn
    Let's put it this way, there will be couples with budget problems who can only afford a part-timers. I've been getting like 4 phone calls a day regarding their actual day photography, and most of the time, they'll ask things like "how much do you charge ah?". Normally, these phone calls don't last more than 2 minutes because person will try to cut the conversation short so that they can call up another photographer to see if he/she is cheaper.

    It is very tempting to charge low at the beginning. Really. But if you believe your work can sell, and patient enough, the bookings will come. When I started to do this full time, for a good few months I couldn't get any booking in December 2006, and there were so many couples whom I met and many just felt that $1388 for full day was out of their budget. After talking to people like Pro Image and a few others, I stopped showing my works on a laptop and did up a few books instead, upped my price to $1.8k+. In a matter of 3 months, my June and July are fully booked. Nov and Dec are almost full, I'm even booked up to Nov next year. One of the december jobs, I managed to convince couple to part with $3.5k for a day shoot, that's a price that I would never dream of, when I showed the contract to one of the full-time pro I'm sure there are many more talent photographers who can price themselves higher than me, it's a really a matter of learning how to.

    The norm in european countries like Holland is about $4800 for full day shoot based on 200Euros an hour, without albums and some of these photographers' portfolio pale in comparison to many of our photographers here. If every photographer decides to make $2k a norm and minimal market rate, the standards of wedding photography here will definitely go up because people are competiting to produce quality work, by giving more, rather than charging less, giving less and killing themselves on the long run.

    Doing up the sample albums can be costly and really takes a lot of work at first because you're still looking for the direction to go, but it's really worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by igpenguin
    ahhhhhhhh.... how can you don't know Phaidon?

    well, you seen photo exhibitions and nice framed, matted prints right? my presentation is without the frames, in a box. i order everything online overseas.

    you should do exactly the presentation you want, forget about couples who want you to do something you don't want to do.
    Thanks for your advice. I'll do up another sample album. Presently I already have my slot-in albums.

    Phaidon....maybe I do a sample album like dat...Thanks for your advice too.

  20. #60

    Default Re: The Art & Design of Producing Professional Wedding Photobooks (Coffee-table) & Al

    Quote Originally Posted by canturn
    If every photographer decides to make $2k a norm and minimal market rate, the standards of wedding photography here will definitely go up because people are competiting to produce quality work, by giving more, rather than charging less, giving less and killing themselves on the long run.
    Thankfully not everyone has decided to make $2k a norm then. Otherwise there would be group of photogs who have no standard but also charge $2k because that is the "norm". The average standard will not go up, in fact if anything it will go down as mediocre photogs join the industry. Why? Because they know that no matter how lousy they are, they can still command $2k.

    My point is that the photog's skill should determine his pricing. Not some industry "guideline" or norm. That is a prescription for disaster, as it will attract all sorts of mediocre photographers because the norm makes it attractive for them to come in.

    For my own wedding we engaged Eng Keow, he was very expensive but he was booked solid for months. I could have gone cheap, engaged some of the studios like Broadway at IMM but of course they did not have the style and vision that we wanted.

    But at least, even if Broadway doesn't work for me, at least they work for other people who are looking for a cheaper alternative, whether by choice or due to budget constraints.

    Price and quality should be well-related. If you are good, you should be able to command a price. The analogy would be you are like SIA, able to charge more than MAS because you provide better service. However, remember there is always a place in the industry, not only for MAS, but even for AirAsia. Some people really want it cheap (they may really not be able to afford it) so they are willing to compromise on quality, and the market should be able to support customers at different price points.
    Last edited by waileong; 12th July 2006 at 01:20 AM.

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