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Thread: Wedding photo copyright & bridal shop

  1. #1

    Angry Wedding photo copyright & bridal shop

    Hi everyone, I'm getting married tis year and have taken my wedding photo.
    The bridal shop owner want to use my photo as a sample portfolio to show his customer.
    But I turn him down. He said that my wedding photo is very different from his portfolio and hope that I aggred to let him use it. To tell the truth, I have look through all their portfolio and find that 90% of the background and probs are the same except for the bride and bridegroom. So I did my own research and did some special effect and bring my own probs for the shoot.

    For personal reson, I am the type that does not like to expose both my wife and my face to the public. After a long talk before we call it a day, he finally show his evil side. He review to me that his Bridal shop got the right to use my wedding photo for his shop's portfolio. I was shock that he said that, but nevermind, I shut my mounth and talk no more cos I have sign up the package and only half way done. If I play head to head to him, I will sure loose out to him as he still got to clean up my image and develope my image and produce my wedding album. If I fight with him, he will sure do a bad job for it.

    1) Do any one got the same situation as me before?
    2) Do I the copyright for my wedding photo since I paid for the service?
    3) Do the Bridal shop owner got the right to use my image as I did not sign any terms and condition with them?
    4) Can he use my image as a display to help him draw sale for his wedding exhibition at Suntec City or ...ect?
    5)What is the actual rate for additional wedding photo?
    *eg: I am entitled to choose 30 wedding photo out of 100pc. So, I choose 50pc at the end and have to pay for the extra 20pc. He charged me $65/Photo. But later I read a wedding forum that there are people paying $50/photo at my same Bridal shop! Am I being cheated?

    I hope this thread can make a good knoweldge to those who plan to take up any wedding package or act as a guide line for them to start with.

    Any reply will be greatly thankful.

    Edited by roygoh - reduced font size to normal and non-bold; contents untouched.
    Last edited by roygoh; 29th June 2006 at 01:33 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Wedding photo copyright & bridal shop

    go Gas station .. Buy gas ..

    Burn his shop /./

  3. #3

    Default Re: Wedding photo copyright & bridal shop

    you signed the contract didn't you. tink you might blow the whistle at the bridal forum.
    Gallery | Facebook Page Spreading the Good photography.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Wedding photo copyright & bridal shop

    hi,
    I'm sorry to hear that this has happened, if you've signed a contract/agreement with the fella, check if it states on copyright issues.
    you might have paid for the service but i think you do not get the copyrights to the photo. example: you pay for the service of a plane or taxi ride, do we get to keep the plane?

    this is only a photography forum and you could get more feedback and suggestions on the bridal forums like singaporebrides.com.


    You paid $65 per photo!!!!!! and you bought 50pieces!. That's like $3250
    my goodness....I think actual day wedding photographers have to charge more cos I think it takes more effort to capture stuff on that one any only biggest day of a couple's life.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Wedding photo copyright & bridal shop

    Quote Originally Posted by eadwine
    You paid $65 per photo!!!!!! and you bought 50pieces!. That's like $3250
    my goodness....I think actual day wedding photographers have to charge more cos I think it takes more effort to capture stuff on that one any only biggest day of a couple's life.
    tink I progress to per-wedding liao.
    Gallery | Facebook Page Spreading the Good photography.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Wedding photo copyright & bridal shop

    The best thing now is to tell him that you'll make a decision after the finish product ( your album ) is delivered to you and you want to look at the final product first.

    With regards to copy rights, look at the T&C of what you've sign with them carefully. It depands on what is stated and signed.

    While I'm not a lawyer, the following is my views, given my limited knowledge of copyrights, during the course of my work as a photographer.
    What "special effect" did you do? Do you mean that you did some digital work on the images shot? What prop did you bring? It all depends on how much your "special effect" digital work and the props affect the final output. The bridal shop have copy right to the images because they are the one who created the images meaning it's their concept, lightings, setting, etc. But if the add. work done by you have affected/change the images shot by them to a large extent, they do not have outright claim to the copyright. Their claim is up to the point where they shot and post processed the image. The final image after you've added in your digital work is considered to be joint copy right, they, after all can't claim copy rights to something which they have not done. Having said that, it all boils down to what is stated and signed.

    Hope this helps.
    I get paid more shooting part time ...... damn, I should find more time to shoot part time

  7. #7
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Wedding photo copyright & bridal shop

    I would beg to differ however - in the absence of any terms and conditions agreed between the parties to the contrary, I would opine that the copyright to the photographs will belong to jiakandang.

    Nevertheless, my view is that jiakandang is correct not to go head to head with the shop at this time - get the photographs first and dont commit either way until then.

    Once everything is done, then dispute with the shop. Posting negative publicity on bridal forums would be a cost effective first step to pressure the shop to desist from their current course of action. If they persist, unforunately it would appear that you may need to seek professional legal advice on this point if you are intent to dispute further.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Wedding photo copyright & bridal shop

    Here's my take, for what it's worth

    1. No never been in the same situation
    2. From what i know, under Singapore Law, it largely depends on the contract you sign with a default bias towards the person comissioning the work, as opposed to the US where by default it goes to the creator.
    3. If you did not sign any contract, then you would be up for a lengthy court battle to ascertain who owns the rights, further complicated on your claims to the creative ideas within the image.
    4. He would require a model release. If you did sign a contract, check and see if it includes a model release clause.
    5. Anything from $10 to thousands of dollars. The problem is that we live in a society where bargaining is accepted and the norm, so variable pricing is inevitable. To save yourself this type of mental anguish, find a boutique/photographer/whatever where prices are fixed.

    Hope this helps.

  9. #9
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wedding photo copyright & bridal shop

    Sorry to hear about this, agreed with many other.

    #1, you post your encounter at singaporebrides dot com will create more pressure to the bridal shop. let you bridal shop know that you are very active in the bridal portal forums and will bring this issues there.
    #2, even they can claim they owns the copyrights, but you have not sign a model release, they can't use it for their publicity or promote their business.
    #3, as for the price of the additional prints, that where all the bridal shops make money from, it maybe cheaper if customers buy more prints.

    FIY, it is very common that every customers from any bridal shops spend 40% or more then the initial package they had sign up.

    Hope this helps.
    Shoot to Live, Live to Shoot
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Wedding photo copyright & bridal shop

    That's funny. Copyright normally goes to the creator of the IP, right? In this case, the photo shop? But whether the copyright then passes over to the client depends on the agreement, ie does the agreement state that the copyright passes to you as part of the package that he paid for.

    However, even if copyright still resides with the shop, model release is required for use not envisaged in the original agreement, ie the shop must seek your agreement for it to be used for commercial purpose.

    But if there was no commercial use in public, if it's just used as a portfolio for potential customers to view when they come into the shop, I suspect model release won't be needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    I would beg to differ however - in the absence of any terms and conditions agreed between the parties to the contrary, I would opine that the copyright to the photographs will belong to jiakandang.

    Nevertheless, my view is that jiakandang is correct not to go head to head with the shop at this time - get the photographs first and dont commit either way until then.

    Once everything is done, then dispute with the shop. Posting negative publicity on bridal forums would be a cost effective first step to pressure the shop to desist from their current course of action. If they persist, unforunately it would appear that you may need to seek professional legal advice on this point if you are intent to dispute further.

  11. #11
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Wedding photo copyright & bridal shop

    Waileong, I've pm-ed you on this

    Cheers

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong
    That's funny. Copyright normally goes to the creator of the IP, right? In this case, the photo shop? But whether the copyright then passes over to the client depends on the agreement, ie does the agreement state that the copyright passes to you as part of the package that he paid for.

    However, even if copyright still resides with the shop, model release is required for use not envisaged in the original agreement, ie the shop must seek your agreement for it to be used for commercial purpose.

    But if there was no commercial use in public, if it's just used as a portfolio for potential customers to view when they come into the shop, I suspect model release won't be needed.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Wedding photo copyright & bridal shop

    Quote Originally Posted by jiakandang
    5)What is the actual rate for additional wedding photo?
    *eg: I am entitled to choose 30 wedding photo out of 100pc. So, I choose 50pc at the end and have to pay for the extra 20pc. He charged me $65/Photo. But later I read a wedding forum that there are people paying $50/photo at my same Bridal shop! Am I being cheated?
    This one I pretty sure. He can charge you whatever price he likes. If you both agreed to $50 in writing, then he charge you $65, that's cheating (although more correctly, that's breach of contract). But if he agreed to charge you $X and and agreed to charge others $Y, that's perfectly legal-- although it may make some customers unhappy.

    There's a term-- caveat emptor, meaning buyer beware. That's why must get everything very clear before signing anything.

    Vince-- no PM received.
    Last edited by waileong; 22nd June 2006 at 01:20 PM.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Wedding photo copyright & bridal shop

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights
    Sorry to hear about this, agreed with many other.

    #1, you post your encounter at singaporebrides dot com will create more pressure to the bridal shop. let you bridal shop know that you are very active in the bridal portal forums and will bring this issues there.
    #2, even they can claim they owns the copyrights, but you have not sign a model release, they can't use it for their publicity or promote their business.
    #3, as for the price of the additional prints, that where all the bridal shops make money from, it maybe cheaper if customers buy more prints.

    FIY, it is very common that every customers from any bridal shops spend 40% or more then the initial package they had sign up.
    Hope this helps.
    Well I paid $4700 (abt 1800 more) as I bought 30 more on top of the initial package. Pics was nice. That was 10 years back.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Wedding photo copyright & bridal shop

    If he do a bad job, get him to redo it, that is your right. As for exposing your photo, tell him you need to consult your lawyer on this matter. Go to Lee & Lee (or some law firms big) to send a letter of intend that should not cost too much (at least a few hundreds). Show the lawyer the contract you signed, there is a good chance that most lawyer can spin it around.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Wedding photo copyright & bridal shop

    Not trying to start anything here, I respect the views of the other CSers here and hope that I can learn something from them here as well. So if I'm starting to piss anyone off, please let me know.

    In a normal situation:
    Depanding on what is stated and signed between the TS and the bridal shop, the copyright should belong to the TS. I will agreed to this, up to this point. But the bridal shop is still, and will forever be credited as the creator of the images. It is not wrong for them to announce to the world that they are the creator and this is what they are capable of producing.
    It may be arguable if reproducing it for the purpose of self promotion is considered a breach of copyrights, but a lawyer I spoke to a few years back did say that unless it is stated and signed in a contract that the images are not to be reproduced in any other form, it is not wrong for a photographer to use the image as his portfolio to showcase his abilities and his past creation. So long as it is used for the sole purpose of self promotion and due care have been taken to prevent it's reproduction by a third party ( ie: uploading a high res copy of it on the web ) it is not in breach of copyright.
    Bear in mind that the photographer's argument here is he's the org creator. The TS have to prove that he have suffered loss in one way or another due to the action of the photographer or if the photographer have profited directly from the image, ie: he reproduce the image and sold it ( maybe as a work of art ). As the photographer will have other images in his portfolio, this will be hard to prove. This is normal business practice.

    In this situation:
    The TS do have an advantage in this case in that he did some digital work to the images shot by the photographer as such, the photographer should not be credited as the sole creator to the final image. The photographer created the image of the TS and the TS created the "special effect" in the final image. If the photographer were to reproduce the final image with the "special effect" created by the TS without his consent, the photographer will have breach copyright laws as he's reproducing something which, in part, is not his creation. I'm not sure, but I think he can also be sued by his future clients for false representation.

    At the end of the day, I think we can all agreed that it all boils down to what was stated and signed. Catchlights and Vince123123 have got good pointers:
    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights
    #1, you post your encounter at singaporebrides dot com will create more pressure to the bridal shop. let you bridal shop know that you are very active in the bridal portal forums and will bring this issues there.
    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    Nevertheless, my view is that jiakandang is correct not to go head to head with the shop at this time - get the photographs first and dont commit either way until then.
    For me, I have respected client's request not to use their images as my portfolio online ( OK for printed copy ). Have even done the same for a TFCD though I have the model release saying I can do it.
    I get paid more shooting part time ...... damn, I should find more time to shoot part time

  16. #16

    Default Re: Wedding photo copyright & bridal shop

    Just to share. I was in a similar situation as a groom. Spoke to a lawyer. He said it's 50/50.
    Edit to add details.

    The bridal studio has the rights to use it as it's portfolio if it is within the premise of the company. So if he makes an album of you guys, keeps it in the shop, and shows it to the customer, you can't stop them at all. However, once it is "published" or out of the confinements of the company's premise, then you have a case. I'm sorry for your predicament, I really am. I'm still fuming about my own experience. But to parrot the rest, a bridal forum would be more adequate for your cause. And I would like to end off by saying if you want to pursue the matter, ring up case, or start seeking for lawyer friends/acquaintences and such to decide on the next course of action.
    Last edited by shinken; 22nd June 2006 at 02:42 PM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Wedding photo copyright & bridal shop

    how about bringing your situations to CASE singapore. They can offer you some advice.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Wedding photo copyright & bridal shop

    Quote Originally Posted by oceanxp
    how about bringing your situations to CASE singapore. They can offer you some advice.
    Sorry to hear about your experience with the shop.

    Unless you're cheated by the photographer or short changed in anyway that differs from what's stipulated in the agreement, you don't really have a case for CASE...pardon the pun.

    As ckuang said, check if the terms includes the free use of your photos as portfolio or publicity materials, if not, you can make noise. You can kick a big fuss about it, but if the fella is listed as one of the advertisers on the bridal forums, they can get whatever thread that you started removed anyway.

    Eawine: Start shooting bridal lor, most couples would have too little budget to hire actual day photographers by the time they pay the bridal studios.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Wedding photo copyright & bridal shop

    jiakandang, possible to pm me the name of the shop?

  20. #20

    Default Re: Wedding photo copyright & bridal shop

    hi. firstly sorry for what you have been through. really angry to see this type of news. these is the answer to your queries:
    1) Do any one got the same situation as me before? - nope, not yet

    2) Do I the copyright for my wedding photo since I paid for the service? - no. the copyright belongs to the photographer by default unless otherwise stated in the contract.


    3) Do the Bridal shop owner got the right to use my image as I did not sign any terms and condition with them? they have no rights to do so! unless you signed anything with them, like a model release

    4) Can he use my image as a display to help him draw sale for his wedding exhibition at Suntec City or ...ect?
    same as question three

    5)What is the actual rate for additional wedding photo?
    *eg: I am entitled to choose 30 wedding photo out of 100pc. So, I choose 50pc at the end and have to pay for the extra 20pc. He charged me $65/Photo. But later I read a wedding forum that there are people paying $50/photo at my same Bridal shop! Am I being cheated?

    depends on company's policies. might differ from one to another even though might be from the same company. prices is subject to change in company's policies

    solution: warn people about this bridal shop in forums~ and depending on your contract (if there is any) go to CASE and lodge a complaint

    Kevyyn

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