View Poll Results: Uprising of people shooting for free. Do you think its spoiling the industry ?

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  • Agree

    32 27.35%
  • Strongly Agree (Agree with a gurantee plus CHOP)

    52 44.44%
  • Disagree

    24 20.51%
  • Strongly Disagree (Disagree with a gurantee no questions ask)

    9 7.69%
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Thread: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

  1. #61

    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    So at the end of the day, if there are people who are willing to do photoshoots for commercial companies for free (because there are such people who are willing), should Clubsnap be a meeting place for them ?

    "Yes": Free market, competition good for consumers, increase in standard

    The "No" reasons i've seen are mostly because of personal opinion that it is demeaning to the photographer, or exploits the photographers. But if they are willing, why not ?

    Another "No" reason might be that people who do it for a living might go out of a job, or start earning less as more and more people are doing it.

    People who do it for free obviously isn't interested in the $$, but are in it for other things. This does not neccessary mean that their shots will be of a lower quality than one who does it for a living as well.

    People who depend on it will of course think that such people "spoil market", but then, should Clubsnap support people who are "in it for other things" just people who want to earn $$ ?

  2. #62
    Senior Member glennyong's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    i think the best solution is to make photographers somehow to start charging.... and to stop companies from asking for free photographers.

    BUT with exceptions of charities and welfare organisations and other NON-PROFIT organisations.

    ok. even if you shoot for free and is not interested in the $, of course it doesnt meant it will be lower or inferior in terms of quality and quantity of work there. but think of it. what will other photographers and photography since it can be offered for free ??

    clubsnap will support photographers. as long they own a camera we as fellow clubsnappers should support one another.

    but main thing. shooting for free for a profit making organisation is a sin.....

    even Nikon NP big walk gives out freebies that worth something ok..... even if its a little. but it sure worth more den a plate of beehoon and a cup of coke..

  3. #63
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Shooting for money is tax reductible.
    Shooting for free is non-tax reductible.

  4. #64
    Senior Member glennyong's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    no la.. shooting for free. is tax free. but pocket also empty
    shoot for $. also can be free.. declare unemployed lor. $ come from inheritance. or monthly pocket money from your godparents overseas lor....

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Its economics... when supply (photographers) > demand (paying customers) price will fall. It can even fall to zero....

    So why has supply risen? More photographers are learning to be good enough coz digital reduces the learning curve. You can chimp what you have just shot. So how good is good enough? I believe there is a decline in people's expectation of a good shot. Save a few demanding fellows, most commonfolk just want their faces dead smack in the middle and not too underexposed. With this kind of demand, you can be sure lots of photographers will be good enough.

  6. #66

    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    [QUOTE=projekts]
    can't resisit this, but higher end swiss watches are all automatics...
    no battery one...
    [QUOTE]

    Would agree with the above hands down if u r considering brands like Patek Philippe and Vacheron Constantin

    Do allow me to make things clearer by bringing more focus ...

    Personally would place better swiss brands like Baume & Mercier and Audemars Piguet into comparison here not typical Tag Heuer and Omega ... where they do provide quartz based watches as well .. pardon me for not elaborating ... to reiterate myself "higher-end watches that are made in swiss"

    Cheers and Thanks for highlighting the point
    Last edited by SoToNgMaN; 25th May 2006 at 11:03 PM.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Csers can crap till ??? page but i wonder if de powers tt b do anything?

  8. #68
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zplus
    Its economics... when supply (photographers) > demand (paying customers) price will fall. It can even fall to zero....
    I also hope the supply (restaurants) > demand (paying customers) price will fall. It can even fall to zero.... so that we have free food.

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sion
    I also hope the supply (restaurants) > demand (paying customers) price will fall. It can even fall to zero.... so that we have free food.
    There is one vegetarian indian food buffet.... customers pay what they "feel" its worth.
    Any amount also can..... Peninsula Excelsior Hotel.. opposite CP and next to Funan.
    Annalakshmi Restaurant
    5 Coleman Street, #02-10
    Open:daily 11.30am-2.30pm, 6pm-9.30pm
    Close: Sundays
    Tel: 6339-9993

    Good food btw....

  10. #70
    Senior Member glennyong's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    please stop OTing and focus on the thread's main purpose.

    watches, resturants have no relation to the main issue of people offering free services.

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Why not ask the Pro photographers bring the free photographers along for a paid shoot.
    the images that the free photographers will not be used.

    1. Free photographers get the experience
    2. the pro photographer gets the job
    3. the clients gets to look good with 2 photographers


    Win-win-win solution.
    But can it be organised?

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Again, there is nothing wrong with an open discussion with your friends/peers/fellow CSers in regards to this topic but do pardon me when I say that you can continue flogging this particular dead horse and you will never get anything out of it.

    Honestly, there have been threads like this from long ago on CS and through all these threads, we have people from different camps airing their views and trying to impress upon everyone else their ideas and ideals.

    While there is nothing wrong with that, it simply boils down to the photographer him or herself. There is absolutely nothing one can do to mandate that everyone charges for their services.

    The crux of my post is this:

    You can continue going on about this for all you want but please, keep it clean and leave any form of malice or personal vendetta out of this. Political innuendoes are also not welcomed. (i.e. Pay and Pay, Poor Also Pay)

    Thank you.
    --
    "High Wired, Dream Sired"

  13. #73
    Senior Member Pablo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by SoToNgMaN
    *No Offence to Anyone*

    Personally am considered pretty fresh to photography ... and aint considering going pro for my forte is watch retail chain ...

    On matter relating to pricing .. or even free ... a much closer relation I could bring about would be changing of watch batteries ..

    Change of battery for a simple china watch would most prob only cost u $2 at neighbourhood area .. or even $0.20 (simply buy a LR626 battery and change yr own) ...

    Had anyone considered changing batteries at $120 per battery for higher-end swiss watches? No doubt any typical consumer would most likely deem that as daylight robbery ... perhaps to evaluate a little more ... the above package includes:

    1. Change of watch gaskets
    2. Polishing of watch surface areas
    3. Full cleaning and oiling (mechanism, jewel pivots, hour wheel etc.)
    4. Full water pressure testing (ATM testing)
    5. Time regulation
    *Even minor parts replacements where required*

    Neverless these things are not excessively elaborated to customers but neverless these are professional services that I deem a $2 battery change would not offer or even justify ... the same that I would never hire a free photographer for my once a lifetime wedding ..

    Believe that free service shouldnt be boycotted (pardon me for my poor vocab) and neither believe that it should be exploited or even taken for granted ...

    Cheers and Comments all ?

    Everyone has a mishap at some time, no one can do a perfect job every second of their life.

    If you made a mistake with an expensive watch, it is going to cost you a lot more to fix than a cheap one.

    Wouldn't you cover your a*s ?

    Time, is an effortless construction :)

  14. #74
    Senior Member Pablo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Hi,

    kweehonjin made some good points.

    As what I do during my day is sell cameras,
    I get to find out what a number of the cameras are used for when the customers come back.

    Wether they come back for something extra or to get photo's developed etc.....

    There are a number or people in "real state" buying decent P&S cameras to take photo's of propperty.

    I have had comments like, "why shoud we pay XXXX $xx when we can do it ourselves for free".

    I have also spoken to many that have bought low end DSLR's and now do weddings at less than 1/3rd the price of a Pro.


    Ok, the "real estate" people will at some time find that their sales are not quite up to where they should be.

    Why ? because they simply P&S, they didn't understand framing/composure etc.
    Their photo's did not have the "WoW" look that would attract the customer.

    Mr & Mrs Newly Weds will be sharing their wedding photo's with other Newly Wed friends
    and will say, "wow yours are so special, ours are nothing like yours ".

    I think that it WILL be hard for true photographers to make good honest money for a while, but like all things, it will settle down.

    Those that do it for free will get sick of spending all their time doing it for free.


    Just my thoughts
    Time, is an effortless construction :)

  15. #75
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pablo
    Those that do it for free will get sick of spending all their time doing it for free.
    Part of the sevice of photography is the time consumed to do a job.

    If you spend the time to go to casino, you may win something or meet someone nice instead of shooting in your company's event for free. Or you may spend a nice afternoon cooling down in a bathtub with a good book instead of chasing a wedded couple in a park under the hot sun.

    There is an opportunity cost involved. There is only x number of days in your life and it is counting down right down....unless you're taking the pills we don't know of.

  16. #76
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by glennyong
    please stop OTing and focus on the thread's main purpose.
    What is the main purpose of this thread?

  17. #77

    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pablo
    Hi,

    kweehonjin made some good points.

    As what I do during my day is sell cameras,
    I get to find out what a number of the cameras are used for when the customers come back.

    Wether they come back for something extra or to get photo's developed etc.....

    There are a number or people in "real state" buying decent P&S cameras to take photo's of propperty.

    I have had comments like, "why shoud we pay XXXX $xx when we can do it ourselves for free".

    I have also spoken to many that have bought low end DSLR's and now do weddings at less than 1/3rd the price of a Pro.


    Ok, the "real estate" people will at some time find that their sales are not quite up to where they should be.

    Why ? because they simply P&S, they didn't understand framing/composure etc.
    Their photo's did not have the "WoW" look that would attract the customer.

    Mr & Mrs Newly Weds will be sharing their wedding photo's with other Newly Wed friends
    and will say, "wow yours are so special, ours are nothing like yours ".

    I think that it WILL be hard for true photographers to make good honest money for a while, but like all things, it will settle down.

    Those that do it for free will get sick of spending all their time doing it for free.


    Just my thoughts
    While it is true that those who do it for free will get sick of spending their time doing it for free, but there may be 10 other willing hobbists to replace that guy who gotten sick of it. This is just my own personal perspective of the trend these days. No concrete statistics to back up though.

  18. #78

    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    From the customer point of view, my company sometimes engaged photographers.

    When you are new and have no experience, you seriously can't expect us to pay you professional rates. At most its a token sum for a project that we know is idiot proof and have a high room for error in case you screw it up. (High room for error means internal stuff like making take photos for company website, jobs that you have a chance to recover from any mistakes you make as there are no clients) Our only aim in giving the job to you is cos we can afford mistakes and that we want to give you a chance. But frankly most of the time we wont even consider you if you are do not have a portfolio. Hence I can understand why some new photographers are willing to do free for a portfolio. But that brings us to the next point.

    When you are good and have a portfolio and produce good work. You shouldnt be afraid that you will lose a job because of such people. Instead you should be more motivated to work harder. Clients especially MNCs and ad agencies are not your typical uncle in the street. They WILL ask for porfolios, they will ask what have you done, they will ask around to find out who you are and your market track record. Cos what you shoot is their company's reputation that is at stake. You screw it up, they die big time. You can be very sure they won't risk giving the job to someone new who needs the job cos they need it for portfolio.

    Hope it helps to give an point of view from the clients.
    Last edited by centuryegg; 28th May 2006 at 12:27 PM.

  19. #79
    Senior Member redstone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Interesting glenn.... Dunno why I never noticed this thread.

    I believe one should at least have a standard present when charging.
    Not everyone is a Russel Wong. Different people, different standards, different styles, different charges.

  20. #80
    Senior Member glennyong's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    well... thanks for "reviving" this thread up thou...

    well... the mods also recently have uped its security against free loaders who are seeking to "cut throat" our fellow Csers and i cant bear to see some of them get cut throat...

    so i am hoping this thread will raise awareness amoung the younger photographers and hope they wake up their ideas about providing free services to the "gian peng" pple out there....


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