View Poll Results: Uprising of people shooting for free. Do you think its spoiling the industry ?

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    32 27.35%
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    52 44.44%
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Thread: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

  1. #41
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by NE clicks clicks
    Not only are there "chao kuan" people, there are "chao kuan" company as well.
    I used to work in a manufacturing company who ask me to take some photos of their new products upon seeing that I have a SLR which I brought to work cos going on a photo shoot after work.
    They wanted me to shoot for free. When I ask them what are they paying for, their reply was only the film!! I would have to pay for the batt, developing, etc. Have to go send and collect for them too.They said for companies benefits.
    Knew what's my reply? ..............Go fly a kite.
    What you should do is to shoot it with a little hand shake, a lot of wide space, a little tilted, a little off focus. some a little under and some a little over, than you will save yourself from many troubles in future.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    IMHO, if the photographer wants to gain exposure, a chance to shoot for "free" is not really free. He is paid the experience which is worth much more.

    I'm no pro and had not even considered to become one. If anyone is willing let me try shooting their event knowing that I'm a newbie, then I will consider the offer. Of course I need to have some allowance like meals, transport processing fees etc. I will not pay anything more than my time. Well I call it a win win situation. Big events organiser will not even consider getting a newbie to shoot in the first place. They also risk having no photo to present to their bosses should the newbie screw up.

    However if anyone is coming to CS to look for professional to shoot, then its not right.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights
    What you should do is to shoot it with a little hand shake, a lot of wide space, a little tilted, a little off focus. some a little under and some a little over, than you will save yourself from many troubles in future.
    I also shoot like that in my paid assignments what.

  4. #44

    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sion
    I also shoot like that in my paid assignments what.


  5. #45

    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    well personally, my stand is that if its for charity or wat not...shooting for free is alright...like said, the company doesnt generate revenue from the event. or rather the organization is non-profit to start wif.

    a problem happens when companies try to ask for photogs for free instead....

  6. #46
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sion
    I also shoot like that in my paid assignments what.
    When phtographers shoot these way for free, the cheapo clients call the photos "sucks".

    When you (sion) and me shoot these way, we tell the clients this is "Art".

    The moral of the story, try not to shoot for free, people will take you (photographers willing to shoot for free meals) work lightly even that you (photographers willing to shoot for free meals) did a good job.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by glennyong
    ... but imagine if someone post a thread in consumers section: Free Photographer for hire. Need to bulid portfolio. will work for free lunch or food/drinks.
    I would advice about against taking up this free food and free drink thing.

    If too many photographers go this route the clients will just give away a pack of instant noodle. Want free drink? The clients just point at the water tap.

    Now where does that leave us? A nice portfolio and a hungry tummy?

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by projekts
    Stick to the bottomline,
    you shoot, he generate revenue, you get paid... PRO
    you shoot, he don't generate revenue, you don't get paid... CHARITY
    you shoot, he generate revenue, and you don't get paid.... IDIOT
    Excellent point.

    To all newbies who think that charging even a friend or ur superior for ur photographic works of sweat and energy is 'not so nice' becos u think ur works are 'not good enuff' and to add onto fuel to fire, the other party will usually say things like, "Hey, I'm putting my wallet on the line to test out a noob photographer." to avoid paying completely.

    Let me tell u - U only earn money from the person ONCE. The person who will profit from your works will earn money from others FOREVER.

    And of cos, my advice to those who are 'desperate' enuff to work for a pittance, for free or sccumb to the "Hey I'm putting my stuff at risk at the hands of a noob/freelancer like u." maintain ur absolute integrity. Its always better to maintain ur dignity and integrity as a human and an artist rather than to be snubbed as a basement bargain deal or a beggar asking for scraps.
    "Wonders of the Human Mind. Unfathomable to the highest degree."

  9. #49

    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by projekts
    There are still many valid reasons one can shoot for free...
    for charity, portfolio, exposures, trial shoot...etc...
    but if one knows that people are using his photo to generate revenues and he is still shooting for free ( for portfolio, passion, interest or whatever reason), then I would say he is a real idiot and market spoiler...
    Stick to the bottomline,
    you shoot, he generate revenue, you get paid... PRO
    you shoot, he don't generate revenue, you don't get paid... CHARITY
    you shoot, he generate revenue, and you don't get paid.... IDIOT :

    He wants to generate revenue, so he is willing to pay, and then he requires assured result from somebody experience, so people new in the industry don't get to shoot...........How?


    I totally agree with dkw, it's a free market, each should charge what they wants to charge..........as much as we want freedom in creativity, we should have the freedom to put a value to our experience..........I am no pro or have the intention to do so, but if I ever want to, in such a competitive market for such a small one, I would happily shoot for the intangibles.....

    I do not know if this is a good analogy, but if every insurance agent charge you for giving you financial advise, what is the chances of you listening to a newbie?

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    So, when is a newbie not a newbie?

    When he wins some kinda prestigious competitions only then he's qualified to charge like a Pro?
    "Wonders of the Human Mind. Unfathomable to the highest degree."

  11. #51

    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    as a photographer earning living, he needs to get paid. as a customer, free professional photographer is demand. what to do? change job lor, boh bian.

  12. #52

    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by jsbn
    So, when is a newbie not a newbie?

    When he wins some kinda prestigious competitions only then he's qualified to charge like a Pro?
    then only himself could answer that question. like i say, you must be able to put a value to your own work. unfortunately it's not a decision that you could make alone,....tough , but it's a fact, you are trying to sell your service, and the customers have every right to judge if you are worth that much......he could be wrong, but that doesn't stop him from judging.

    I might have a high self esteem and think very highly of myself, can I charge like a pro....sure...it's my right, but would i get a job???

  13. #53

    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    In my opinion, the "uprising" of such "free labour" can be a good thing for the industry.

    A competitive market is good for consumers. With the existance of "free labour", people who can't afford to pay a full time photographer, or who wishes to reduce costs can do so. Of course, one wonders if "free labour" = "inferior quality", but this is the problem of the consumer who wants to cut cost.

    Then there'll be more discerning customers who wants better images, and upon comparision of "free labour" with so called "pro" photographers, decides that "free labour" quality is crap, and decides to choose "pro" photographers all the way.

    "pro" photographers will also be pushed to work harder to improve on their work to get a bigger piece of the pie.

    These "free labour" and their customers are willing parties, with time to spend, portfolios to build... it doesn't even matter what their reasons are. They are willing, what ever risks are borne by them, so why bother ?

    If of course you are a "pro" photographer who are in it for the money, and totally have no passion about photography, don't care about improving yourself and neglect marketing your work, then this "free labour" competition is bad for you.

    (the last paragraph is not directed to anyone in particular. just my view on competition)

    cheers

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Possible solution is for moderators to remove posts identified as freeloading and send an advisory email to the person.

    Else there is really no way to control it. When there is demand (rookie photographers) there will be supply (freeloading companies). Singapore is supposed to promote I.P. and such companies are not helping.

    Imagine a rookie photographer gets an award winning shot that could earn him big bucks, giving the rights to such companies will not simply be his/her loss, it is a loss to the entire photographic community.

    The best way is to "deal with the issue and not the person". No point flaming rookie photographers or freeloading companies. The photographic community should unite and move to stamp out such practises. We can educate the rookies. Remember that we were all once rookies. Don't let them get desperate for oppurtunities, let them tag along with the old pros and learn. We all must leave the industry one day. We don't have a choice. It's called old age and death. Why not pass on our knowledge.

    Everyone should also agree on prices. I'm not talking about literal price fixing, but at least have a minimum sum to charge. Shouldn't we also have a "support group". It can act like a mini community where we truly help one another.

    ClubSnap has so much potential to do good. It is also the cornerstone to a "union-like" organization. When I say "union-like" I'm not thinking of those in the west where people go on strike and go into riots but an entity to offer legal protection for photographers.

    Just my thoughts. Perhaps someone with better insight into the legal issues may advise...

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by overdodo
    If of course you are a "pro" photographer who are in it for the money, and totally have no passion about photography, don't care about improving yourself and neglect marketing your work, then this "free labour" competition is bad for you.

    (the last paragraph is not directed to anyone in particular. just my view on competition)

    cheers
    To a certain point. Everyone has to look at the money.
    This is Singapore. We paying a lot for peace and harmony.

  16. #56
    Senior Member glennyong's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    theres a saying in Singapore.

    we Pay and Pay. Poor also Pay. we pay and pay. money is everything here. nothing is free in this world. pay and pay. poor also pay.




    win a prize in a comp is nothing. it just means that photographer is lucky. but if he wins in multiple rounds, den i will consider him/her something of a very good calibre.

  17. #57
    Senior Member Cheesecake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by glennyong
    theres a saying in Singapore.

    we Pay and Pay. Poor also Pay. we pay and pay. money is everything here. nothing is free in this world. pay and pay. poor also pay.



    .

    wa...
    You'll Never Walk Alone! - i have the best job in the world!

  18. #58

    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sion
    I would advice about against taking up this free food and free drink thing.

    If too many photographers go this route the clients will just give away a pack of instant noodle. Want free drink? The clients just point at the water tap.

    Now where does that leave us? A nice portfolio and a hungry tummy?

    actually this is a free market. If there are people willing to pay you money to take photos for you, then what else can you do.
    all those that wants people to pay them money to take photos would be out of the market.

    willing takers, willing payers

  19. #59

    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Witness
    well personally, my stand is that if its for charity or wat not...shooting for free is alright...like said, the company doesnt generate revenue from the event. or rather the organization is non-profit to start wif.

    a problem happens when companies try to ask for photogs for free instead....
    I agree with what witness said. Put it this way. Our time represents our life. We work certain hours a week in exchange for our pay check at the end of the month. Time puts a value to our worth as a human being. With that said. Now shooting for non profit, for example church/temple etc is a form of worship (at least to me). Being a church goer, I value the service that I can give back to the church. Likewise when I do a shoot for a couple friend that's getting married for free or for very minimal amount. In my heart I wanted to bless them & I put a high value on their friendship more then $$$ gain.

    But when a company that's doing well asked for free photography services.... In my opinion, they do not respect the photographer's value & time. Building up portfolio does not require us as a photographer to stoop so low as to shoot for meals & transport.

  20. #60

    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Hmmm... I think the "problem" is the relatively affordable price of digital photography equipment nowadays.

    Was chatting with a fellow full-time photographer the other day, he mentioned how there are hobbyist/amateurs out there who 'get' together and offer to shoot a wedding for $XXX (XXX being WAY below market). So for say half the price of a pro, the wedding couple gets not one but THREE photographers!

    As this is Kiasu Singapore, the couple would think - and the 3 musketeers will preach - that they'll cover 'all' the angles since they are three of them. So the couple thinks, "Hmmm... 3 dedicated hobbyists must be better than one pro right???"

    I dunno if the above is true, but I do agree that chances are one of the three will capture the shot and between all of them, all the 'requisite' shots. If they 'know' what is the critical shot... (depends on what client wants, style etc etc - but I digress)

    And why is this possible nowadays? Bescause of the DSLR!! In the past, film and processing would prevent 3 'photographers' from happily snapping away. Now, its just snap and decide later. Cost is a minimum!

    I guess as far as the 3 photographers are concerned, they are still making S$XXX/3 which is extra $$$$ to fund their hobby. Its a free world, you can't stop people from doing that.

    Not trying to make any point, just pointing out that in order to survive, a pro photographer just has to find a niche 'area' of photography that has a high barrier to entry. For example government jobs where they won't allow 3 people to do one person's job, commercial shoots where the time is money (location/models etc), motorsport/fashion where if you don't know what you're doing all three photographers might end up with blurred shots (just using three as an example here) etc etc.

    Finally, with regards to portfolio, having done photography full-time for a while now, let me 'share' that 99.99% of the time, the portfolio that can be 'earned' from doing the job free is usually not worth 'anything'.

    Lets be honest, if you'll get to shoot Zhang Ziyi in a closed door situation or David Beckham for Nike, the client can afford to pay. If you're shooting some 'event' that got no budget, chances are the portfolio won't be worth much. Makes sense? If the event/shoot is 'good' enough to show, then chances are the client will have money lah. (I do agree about shooting for charity like church etc though) Tagging along with a pro to 'help' out and maybe fire off some shots is a whole different issue...

    Just my own opinion, doesn't mean its anywere close to the gospel truth...

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