View Poll Results: Uprising of people shooting for free. Do you think its spoiling the industry ?

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    32 27.35%
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Thread: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

  1. #21
    Senior Member Cheesecake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by projekts
    you shoot, he generate loss... Must Stay Away from You
    You'll Never Walk Alone! - i have the best job in the world!

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by zhang3feng
    when i was studying... we will get some job lobang once in a while as free lance.. b'coz these pple know we are student, the $$$ they give also lower.. but they still PAY!

    i find that people who are jus starting or newbies building portfolio.. no matter how good or bad.. u shd at least charge a small sum of $$$ so that it will not spoil the market with the word "FREE"... it's not doing u any good too...

    erm.. but hor, when u charge cheap, ppl also say u spoil market leh ...

    I think it still comes to what they customer wants and his budget lo, when he is looking for free things or cheap things, he knows he dun need pro standard mah.

    jus like u have money, u wan quality, u will buy expensive TV
    u dun wan/need good quality, why spend so much?
    if u no money, u rather use the old lousy tv than buy right?

    i think overall it is the different standards that ppl are after.

    but of course, i dun support ppl out to exploit..

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by projekts
    you shoot, he generate loss... Must Stay Away from You
    dang.. i fall into this cat also..
    “How fortunate for leaders that men do not think.” - Adolf Hitler

  4. #24

    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    *No Offence to Anyone*

    Personally am considered pretty fresh to photography ... and aint considering going pro for my forte is watch retail chain ...

    On matter relating to pricing .. or even free ... a much closer relation I could bring about would be changing of watch batteries ..

    Change of battery for a simple china watch would most prob only cost u $2 at neighbourhood area .. or even $0.20 (simply buy a LR626 battery and change yr own) ...

    Had anyone considered changing batteries at $120 per battery for higher-end swiss watches? No doubt any typical consumer would most likely deem that as daylight robbery ... perhaps to evaluate a little more ... the above package includes:

    1. Change of watch gaskets
    2. Polishing of watch surface areas
    3. Full cleaning and oiling (mechanism, jewel pivots, hour wheel etc.)
    4. Full water pressure testing (ATM testing)
    5. Time regulation
    *Even minor parts replacements where required*

    Neverless these things are not excessively elaborated to customers but neverless these are professional services that I deem a $2 battery change would not offer or even justify ... the same that I would never hire a free photographer for my once a lifetime wedding ..

    Believe that free service shouldnt be boycotted (pardon me for my poor vocab) and neither believe that it should be exploited or even taken for granted ...

    Cheers and Comments all ?

  5. #25

    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by SoToNgMaN
    Had anyone considered changing batteries at $120 per battery for higher-end swiss watches??
    can't resisit this, but higher end swiss watches are all automatics...
    no battery one...

    anyway, back to the topic...
    there's no doubt about paying peanuts and getting monkeys theory...
    however, when the market is full of monkeys, the bigger boys will be affected too...
    quote you an example...
    a pro photographer used to be able to get about 1.5k/day for event coverage...
    then come the day when the monkeys are flocking into the market asking for 300 or even offer to shoot for free...
    even if they cannot product the result the pro produced, but they had already injected the idea to the clients that the job CAN be done at lower price...
    in the end, they WILL NOT pay the pro his rate anymore...
    with lesser and lesser deals coming in, the pro has no choice but to lower his rate to 800-1k/day...
    this is happening in this industry now, and if we don't educate the newer batch of photographers the ethics of this industry, there will be a day when the market collapse and the pros decided to shoot at 300/day, and of cos, 300 dollars worth of efforts...
    Photography is an expensive hobby, and an even more expensive profession...
    It's the passion that keep the pro photographers going, but it's the money that keep the pro photographers alive...

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    i guess wad irks most CSers is tt d thin red line between charity / exploitation is moving at an alarmingly quick pace & its getting worse.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    I think in whatever industry it may be, if you love what you are doing, be prepared to suffer a bit lah.

    The problem of free photography has always been around, and while many feel it is an exploitation, I do see it as an opportunity for those who are willing to learn and have the client-customer feel.

    shooting for your own personal projects is always different from having to shoot for others, and do note that the moment you start charging, you are competing in an extremely challenging market.

    For those newbies, if you are willing to invest in your cameras and willing to learn, spending a few hours working on some free projects will do you more good than harm.

    On the other hand, people who are looking out for free photographers are also subjecting themselves to some level of risk; no decent client who is looking for consistent quality is going to pay a lunch for a couple of hundred images. The loss of a golden opportunity, a VIP shaking the hands of the members will be more costly than a mere few hundred bucks.

    It is basically a match up between photographers willing to learn and clients who are not too demanding.

    If the moderators are against people posting adverts for free photography services, they can always put a stop to this.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Erm...

    I think there is nothing wrong with doing stuff FOC especially if there is a valid reason behind it.

    E.g. Will you ask to be paid if you are shooting an event for a volunteer group or a charity event.....

    Of course then there are corporate and profit foused events which you guys might want to avoid... well...

  9. #29

    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    if you don't feel comfortable about providing pro-bono services, don't do it.

    however, if you resort to tactics like giving low res images or bad images, you will just tarnish your reputation as a photographer.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Put it this way. Why do commercial photographers get paid? Other than the skills and equipments he/she possess, it is also a compensation for his/her time. I doubt many commercial photographers are willing to shoot for the sake of satisfaction or for fun and laughter. Though there are still many paid photographers who shoot for free for publicity sometimes. On the contrary, hobbists probably shoot for free for satisfaction, fun and laughter. It is an upward and unstoppable trend that there will be more and more hobbists willing to step forward to shoot for free. It is also becoming more and more foolish for anybody to think that by shooting for free, one can build up their portfolio to become a paid photographer in the area of photography where everybody is shooting for free. At the end of the day, there is no reason to become a paid photographer since not many people are willing to pay anyway.

    When hobbists shoot for satisfaction, fun and laughter, they are also giving away their life, time and skills of producing pictures for others to enjoy for free. But oh well, since hobbists treat their life, time and skills as something, which is not very significant to treasure, it is all right to shoot for free. At the end of the day, life, time and skills don't mean much, so long there is satisfaction, fun and laughter.

    Yet, there is still a good reason to shoot for free. Hobbists who wish to become a paid photographer should consider doing research, intensive planning and dumping in a few hundred dollars to do setup and buy props to create extraordinary pictures. If the pictures turn out good, and really worth some value and still given away free, then you are on your way to become a paid photographer in future. Just that you will probably be paid for one assignment, with the other nine assignments being snatched away by other hobbists who also wish to become a paid photographer and had done their research, intensive planning and dumping in a few hundred dollars to do setup and buy props to give away more free pictures.

    Bottomline is, "Sharing is caring". When we care for the people around us, we share.
    Last edited by Yezrah; 25th May 2006 at 02:06 AM.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by synapseman
    I
    But still, I also agree that there are many "chao-kuan" people out there who will take advantage of others any way they can.
    Not only are there "chao kuan" people, there are "chao kuan" company as well.
    I used to work in a manufacturing company who ask me to take some photos of their new products upon seeing that I have a SLR which I brought to work cos going on a photo shoot after work.
    They wanted me to shoot for free. When I ask them what are they paying for, their reply was only the film!! I would have to pay for the batt, developing, etc. Have to go send and collect for them too.They said for companies benefits.
    Knew what's my reply? ..............Go fly a kite.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by NE clicks clicks
    Not only are there "chao kuan" people, there are "chao kuan" company as well.
    I used to work in a manufacturing company who ask me to take some photos of their new products upon seeing that I have a SLR which I brought to work cos going on a photo shoot after work.
    They wanted me to shoot for free. When I ask them what are they paying for, their reply was only the film!! I would have to pay for the batt, developing, etc. Have to go send and collect for them too.They said for companies benefits.
    Knew what's my reply? ..............Go fly a kite.
    it's like tat... alot of companies likes to abuse their workers' talent or hobbies

  13. #33
    Senior Member glennyong's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    shooting for charities and welfare organisations are fine. i have no problems with that. HOWEVEr. even welfare organisations do pay u a little bit to compensate you for your time and effort, and sometimes meals and transport allowances. so its still a paid job.

    but my point is there are people out there providing free services and have you ever compared the market rates 3yrs ago and now ??? i have to say theres a difference.

    when one photographer gives free services to a client. this is my so called visualisation of what the client thinks.

    a. wha! i didnt know nowadays i can get free photographers. so why bother getting to hire someone when i can get someone to work for me free ? like that i can help company save cost and impress my boss that i am resourceful.

    b. free photographers. who needs to hire when i can free who can get the job done ?

    there are times when i hear this going around in schools and my work place where people discuss how cheap photography can be. but the power thing is that, they didnt know that a freelance photographer is working beside them, listening to all their craps and etc etc...

    but imagine if someone post a thread in consumers section: Free Photographer for hire. Need to bulid portfolio. will work for free lunch or food/drinks.

    how would you feel ???

    i just dun wish the photography industry should be spoilt by some people giving out free services. it applies to weddings also. i believe even if you shoot for your friend or what during their wedding, they still give u ang pao..... summore gt dinner for you. can tarpao..

    free services is really doing damage. its not significant u might think. but think about others in it for full time and they face competition. Competition is fine. but tell me how are u going to compete when they are doing it for FREE.

    and for sake... its FREE!

  14. #34

    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by glennyong
    shooting for charities and welfare organisations are fine. i have no problems with that. HOWEVEr. even welfare organisations do pay u a little bit to compensate you for your time and effort, and sometimes meals and transport allowances. so its still a paid job.

    but my point is there are people out there providing free services and have you ever compared the market rates 3yrs ago and now ??? i have to say theres a difference.

    when one photographer gives free services to a client. this is my so called visualisation of what the client thinks.

    a. wha! i didnt know nowadays i can get free photographers. so why bother getting to hire someone when i can get someone to work for me free ? like that i can help company save cost and impress my boss that i am resourceful.

    b. free photographers. who needs to hire when i can free who can get the job done ?

    there are times when i hear this going around in schools and my work place where people discuss how cheap photography can be. but the power thing is that, they didnt know that a freelance photographer is working beside them, listening to all their craps and etc etc...

    but imagine if someone post a thread in consumers section: Free Photographer for hire. Need to bulid portfolio. will work for free lunch or food/drinks.

    how would you feel ???

    i just dun wish the photography industry should be spoilt by some people giving out free services. it applies to weddings also. i believe even if you shoot for your friend or what during their wedding, they still give u ang pao..... summore gt dinner for you. can tarpao..

    free services is really doing damage. its not significant u might think. but think about others in it for full time and they face competition. Competition is fine. but tell me how are u going to compete when they are doing it for FREE.

    and for sake... its FREE!
    If you're paid a little, you are worth a little. And you buy little food to eat. If you are not paid, you have no worth. And you don't get to buy any food to eat. If you are not paid, and given food to eat, you still don't get to buy the next food you are going to eat. Be it charity organisation or registered company, if you don't get to buy your food, there is no life and no next free shoot for other people. Unless there is always food, or there is always a life.......there is no need to be paid.

  15. #35
    Senior Member glennyong's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yezrah
    If you're paid a little, you are worth a little. And you buy little food to eat. If you are not paid, you have no worth. And you don't get to buy any food to eat. If you are not paid, and given food to eat, you still don't get to buy the next food you are going to eat. Be it charity organisation or registered company, if you don't get to buy your food, there is no life and no next free shoot for other people. Unless there is always food, or there is always a life.......there is no need to be paid.
    and your point ?

  16. #36

    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by glennyong
    and your point ?
    Certain area of paid photography is heading towards extinction and we are creating this history now for perhaps, 50 years later. There is no right or wrong. It is simply the will of the people that we are destroying one another's rice bowl for the sake of our own satisfaction and some for the sake of short term survival.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Quote Originally Posted by glennyong
    shooting for charities and welfare organisations are fine. i have no problems with that. HOWEVEr. even welfare organisations do pay u a little bit to compensate you for your time and effort, and sometimes meals and transport allowances. so its still a paid job.

    but my point is there are people out there providing free services and have you ever compared the market rates 3yrs ago and now ??? i have to say theres a difference.

    when one photographer gives free services to a client. this is my so called visualisation of what the client thinks.

    a. wha! i didnt know nowadays i can get free photographers. so why bother getting to hire someone when i can get someone to work for me free ? like that i can help company save cost and impress my boss that i am resourceful.

    b. free photographers. who needs to hire when i can free who can get the job done ?

    there are times when i hear this going around in schools and my work place where people discuss how cheap photography can be. but the power thing is that, they didnt know that a freelance photographer is working beside them, listening to all their craps and etc etc...

    but imagine if someone post a thread in consumers section: Free Photographer for hire. Need to bulid portfolio. will work for free lunch or food/drinks.

    how would you feel ???

    i just dun wish the photography industry should be spoilt by some people giving out free services. it applies to weddings also. i believe even if you shoot for your friend or what during their wedding, they still give u ang pao..... summore gt dinner for you. can tarpao..

    free services is really doing damage. its not significant u might think. but think about others in it for full time and they face competition. Competition is fine. but tell me how are u going to compete when they are doing it for FREE.

    and for sake... its FREE!
    i agree with your points. Regarding competing with FREE services, i will say the pros compete by producing real quality work. Which is y ppl still go studios to get their portraits taken etc. Else they can always stand infront of their living room wall and ask their bro/sis with a DSLR to take for them also.
    Last edited by heroneo99; 25th May 2006 at 10:05 AM.

  18. #38
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    Just an alternative concept for consideration.

    Has anyone ever wondered sometimes it is the full time photographers who undercut. There are some part-timers/hobbyists who are really good, and charge a premium cos they are good. Lets say they charge an arbitrary sum of S$1000 for a job.

    Because they already have a full time job, they do not mind losing the S$1,000 job. For some, their full time job pays even more than their part time photography. Hence, they only do jobs which pay high enough to justify the time spent and therefore quote high. If its not high enough, its not worth their time.

    Now, comes in the full time photographer. Because he earns his living primarily from photography, he cannot afford to turn away jobs like the part-timer/hobbyist. Accordingly, to get the job, he will have to reduce his prices so as to maintain a steady stream of jobs. He may even quote S$800 to get the same job.

    Its not always the part timers or hobbyists who reduce prices - sometimes its the full timers who do the same thing to maintain their job stream. Of course, for those successful full timers, they can afford to quote high as they don't need that particular job to stay afloat (almost akin to the part-timers with high paying day jobs).

  19. #39
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    It's free market mah.

    That's why got free labour.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Uprising of free labour. Time to step UP against it!

    I am a hobbyist photographer who takes on projects sometimes to satisfy the virus. I will never, never, never shoot for free! Why?

    Very degrading to the name of photography. Imagine people asking how much you paid for the photographer? Ans: Just a couple of drinks and burgers! Building portfolio for free? Pointless. I will build my own portfolio for free by myself.

    There is always a need to earn extra cash but if everyone goes into an industry and spoils it's market value, we are killing ourselves. The reason why we are humans instead of animals is that we respect each other and leave room for breathing. Not like animals who will kill each other for food just to satisfy their hunger.

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