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Thread: Comments on Pictures posted, lies or truths?

  1. #61

    Default Re: Comments on Pictures posted, lies or truths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ren_Hao
    Why are we defining clubsnap as a "Singaporean/Asian" majority forum? There are quite a number of non-Asians here too. A forum has no mindset, it is the mindset of the individual that take part in discussion in the discussions in the forum.
    heh, dude, I didnt define all CSers to be non-vocal. I know & agree that the forum is a dead object and that it's the individual to participates in discussions but there are few, like yourself, who actually dish out comments as much as they can take criticism...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ren_Hao
    that does not mean that the more vocal Asians must shut up for the "good" of the majority. We are cacooning ourselves. I am Asian too, but i feel that is not the way to go.
    I never said to 'cocoon' ourselves, nor shut up for the majority. In fact I agree that CS should be more vocal, but unfortunately, that's not the case, been this way for few years. Majority mentality is like this and behavior is hard to change...

    Thanks for echoing my sentiments... what DP mentioned is comments are like a black (lies) & white (truth) situation, all I'm saying is that it's a grey (neutral) area.... since most of CSers are asian.

    know what I mean?
    Last edited by Rev; 3rd May 2006 at 05:06 PM.

  2. #62

    Default Re: Comments on Pictures posted, lies or truths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rev

    Thanks for echoing my sentiments... what DP mentioned is comments are like a black (lies) & white (truth) situation, all I'm saying is that it's a grey (neutral) area.... since most of CSers are asian.

    know what I mean?
    No prob dude, know what u are refering to.
    I am coming in more from the angle that if we are to encourage fellow CSers by singing praises for pic that utterly do not deserve any, than we are doing a deservice.
    I have nothing against sugar/honey coating of negative constructive comments. I am more against unconstructive positive comments

  3. #63

    Default Re: Comments on Pictures posted, lies or truths?

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong
    Go to any art gallery. Do you see any place for you to write "comments" next to every painting?

    ...
    Let me give another example.

    ...

    When we invite you for dinner, we don't expect rude criticism. When we submit a dish for a culinary competition, we expect to be rated, judged, compared and criticised.

    Therein lies the difference.
    First of all, art hanging on the wall of a gallery gets more severe criticisms, comments and even praises, from the audience amoung themselves, by the press and critics, and most important of all, by those who commented with their wallets.

    When youy exhibited something in public, you cannot have the delusioned that there won't be comments.

    You really like to compare apples and oranges, you are making this into an artform. How can you compare an invitation to your home to taste your wifes cooking with posting picture on the internet. The former is a private, by invitation only event, and the latter is PUBLIC PUBLIC PUBLIC.
    deadpoet
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  4. #64
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    Default Re: Comments on Pictures posted, lies or truths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ren_Hao
    I think it refers to having big assets.
    strange... so TL is tua liap, then TTL? TUA TUA LIAP?

    ETTL? Enormous Tua Tua Liap?

    iTTL? Its Tua Tua Liap?

    but i find justified, sg only TL, no TTL or eTTL or iTTL yet... but i TL, tulan...
    Logging Off. "You have 2,631 messages stored, of a total 400 allowed." don't PM me.

  5. #65

    Default Re: Comments on Pictures posted, lies or truths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Del_CtrlnoAlt
    strange... so TL is tua liap, then TTL? TUA TUA LIAP?

    ETTL? Enormous Tua Tua Liap?

    iTTL? Its Tua Tua Liap?

    but i find justified, sg only TL, no TTL or eTTL or iTTL yet... but i TL, tulan...
    Famous is "famous"
    Infamous is "more than famous"
    So the ranking should be -- Largest to smallest ;

    ETTL
    iTTL
    TTL
    TL

    TuLan however, belongs to another category.

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Comments on Pictures posted, lies or truths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caspere
    Famous is "famous"
    Infamous is "more than famous"
    So the ranking should be -- Largest to smallest ;

    ETTL
    iTTL
    TTL
    TL

    TuLan however, belongs to another category.

    and this is one good example of one complaint on OT-hood being acheived easily by any thread.
    We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. - Oscar Wilde

  7. #67

    Default Re: Comments on Pictures posted, lies or truths?

    haahaaa, but it is light hearted fun anyway

  8. #68

    Default Re: Comments on Pictures posted, lies or truths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    How do we the views know if the poster wants comments or not? As I said many times, if the poster said comments not welcome, I will shut up. Otherwise, it's fair game.
    You seemed only concerned with your "right" to comment. You should realise that there's a price to be paid for exercising your right (see student's post), or exercising it in a manner that angers others, creates bad feelings.

    Only you can decide if it's worth it.

    One last try at an example.

    I have a right to take photos when I'm in a public place. Suppose I try to exercise this right in Geylang Lor 8, to take pix of the chickens and the chicken herders there. What do you think would happen? I might get away with it once or twice, but do it too often, my camera will prob be smashed by the gangs there, if not my bones.

    Should I exercise my "right"? If I'm smart, I'll either not exercise it, or else be very careful, very discreet.

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Comments on Pictures posted, lies or truths?

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong
    You seemed only concerned with your "right" to comment. You should realise that there's a price to be paid for exercising your right (see student's post), or exercising it in a manner that angers others, creates bad feelings.

    Only you can decide if it's worth it.

    One last try at an example.

    I have a right to take photos when I'm in a public place. Suppose I try to exercise this right in Geylang Lor 8, to take pix of the chickens and the chicken herders there. What do you think would happen? I might get away with it once or twice, but do it too often, my camera will prob be smashed by the gangs there, if not my bones.

    Should I exercise my "right"? If I'm smart, I'll either not exercise it, or else be very careful, very discreet.
    u can always bring the chickens elsewhere to shoot... and preferably with different type of ammunition too..
    Logging Off. "You have 2,631 messages stored, of a total 400 allowed." don't PM me.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Comments on Pictures posted, lies or truths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Del_CtrlnoAlt
    strange... so TL is tua liap, then TTL? TUA TUA LIAP?

    ETTL? Enormous Tua Tua Liap?

    iTTL? Its Tua Tua Liap?

    but i find justified, sg only TL, no TTL or eTTL or iTTL yet... but i TL, tulan...
    Please show examples to illustrate your points.

  11. #71

    Default Re: Comments on Pictures posted, lies or truths?

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong
    You seemed only concerned with your "right" to comment. You should realise that there's a price to be paid for exercising your right (see student's post), or exercising it in a manner that angers others, creates bad feelings.

    Only you can decide if it's worth it.
    Actually, using your logic, you claimed that my comments create angers, bad feelings in others, I can also say, some of these pictures posted really "sucks", they are offensive. If I advocate that these picture should not be posted, would that work?

    Posting pictures is portected under the freedm of expression I cherished. Some of te sugar coated "nice" comments are very offensive in nature, but it's the poster's right to express themselves as they see fit, nomatter how much I don't like it.

    Your Geylang example does not serve your purpose. It's the photographer's right to take the picture at Lor 8, however, the photographer has to be aware of risk he is taking. His rights to take picture is never in question here. His health maybe. Likewise, are you suggesting that my health maybe in question if I am only being honest and straight forward here in CS?

    The price to pay to exercise my freedom of expression is, if I do not exercise it, I am relinquishing my rights and allow others to determine what and how I can express myself. The price is too high to pay.

    I have a question for you. Why are you so afraid of the truth?
    deadpoet
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  12. #72
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    Default Re: Comments on Pictures posted, lies or truths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    Actually, using your logic, you claimed that my comments create angers, bad feelings in others, I can also say, some of these pictures posted really "sucks", they are offensive. If I advocate that these picture should not be posted, would that work?

    Posting pictures is portected under the freedm of expression I cherished. Some of te sugar coated "nice" comments are very offensive in nature, but it's the poster's right to express themselves as they see fit, nomatter how much I don't like it.

    Your Geylang example does not serve your purpose. It's the photographer's right to take the picture at Lor 8, however, the photographer has to be aware of risk he is taking. His rights to take picture is never in question here. His health maybe. Likewise, are you suggesting that my health maybe in question if I am only being honest and straight forward here in CS?

    The price to pay to exercise my freedom of expression is, if I do not exercise it, I am relinquishing my rights and allow others to determine what and how I can express myself. The price is too high to pay.

    I have a question for you. Why are you so afraid of the truth?
    My honest feelings are these. There is nothing wrong to criticise a picture. It is the manner of it being done that makes the difference. I studied and practised management. To get the message across to certain people, we have to suit the person's character to give the feedback. Certain pp I can shoot straightforward while certain pp, I have to be more diplomatic. This is termed situational leadership. Dead Poet, certain pp are turned off by comments and may even lose interest due to inability to take harshness. If that happens, does it meet the objective that u intended to have? U happened to belong to a group of pp that rather take frankness but certain pp think differently. If u happened to become a manager one day, u may find that u lose all your pp if your pp does not belong to your style. So how? Fire all of them? My point is if u do not know the other party, give criticisms in a constructive way.

    I appreciate the harsh comments u made in my threads. To me, it is a matter of opinion or u may have even mistaken my intentions because in real life, there is also body lang that is taken into account which is 1 big limitation of computers.

    However, some of the pics really sux and I also do not understand why people say gd.

    I remember one post by Catchlights giving a similar comment to someone in a very diplomatic way. Answer was this is my style and no one complained. I agree that is plain stubborness and Catchlights said something like Be It.

    Another point to note is this. I just submitted my photos to a boutique that I just worked with. I used some journalistic types. The boutique told me that she like my shots but she had been rejected by several customers on that type of shots. Most customers somehow preferred traditional photos. Straight Straight Bright Bright. (Luckily I shot both types). Therefore to certain photographers, they have been having that type of background and therefore they viewed their shots as gd due to the type of customers they have been exposed to.

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Comments on Pictures posted, lies or truths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    The price to pay to exercise my freedom of expression is, if I do not exercise it, I am relinquishing my rights and allow others to determine what and how I can express myself.
    Political leaders everywhere in the world use pretexts to mislead people and curtail their liberties, be it "danger of communism", "war against terrorism" or "European/American/Asian values". Societies that trusted their leaders too much and consequently fell victim to such practices may have problems understanding the concept of freedom you're advocating.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Comments on Pictures posted, lies or truths?

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleWolf
    Political leaders everywhere in the world use pretexts to mislead people and curtail their liberties, be it "danger of communism", "war against terrorism" or "European/American/Asian values". Societies that trusted their leaders too much and consequently fell victim to such practices may have problems understanding the concept of freedom you're advocating.
    That is provided the leaders are leading wrongly and is ill intent. Your final objective as what I understand is that u are helping others to improve. It is of gd intent. But if the approach is wrong initially, does it serve your ultimate purpose.... which is to help others improve. Unless, your objective is to be heard, then I got nothing to say as your objective is to be heard which is of no purpose other than to hurt or to make others happy

  15. #75

    Default Re: Comments on Pictures posted, lies or truths?

    I'm not afraid of the truth. However, I regret that I couldn't get across my points to you, even after so many examples.

    In my few postings, I've tried to explain:

    a. That in many cases, people who are "sharing" pictures are not looking for "comments" per se, yours or anybody elses', they really want to share their latest pix, whether it's from a CS TL model shoot, pix of their kids, colleagues, dogs or cats, etc.

    b. That not all "comments" are created equal. You can go several levels in giving comments. Pointing out the obvious flaws (eyes not equal size, hair messy, over-PS, etc) is very basic, doesn't help the poster much. Offering basic suggestions (crop like this, crop like that, nitpick this and that) is just a small increment, still doesn't help much.

    To give a valuable critique takes so much time and energy it's unbelievable. You have to have the poster's growth as a photographer at heart. You have to criticise not because you want to point out his flaws, but because you want to help him improve. You have to show him what he did well, what he did not, what he could have done, how that could have improved the pix, perhaps even suggest a whole new way of doing things, etc.

    You have to guess what he was trying to achieve and his level of development before you can even begin. And like student said, even then it's not always certain that you should impose your standards on someone else.

    Eg. you may be a classical photographer who follows the rule of thirds, use warming filters all the time, maximise DOF, use tripod, etc. while the poster may be a totally different creature following a totally different path. How could you give a relevant critique in such a situation?

    For these reasons, genuine and valuable critiques are rare, which is why we lament the poor quality of the C&C forum.

    c. That when people do want comments (eg if they post in C&C forum), how you comment can affect how people react to you. You can give criticism nicely or harshly. You're getting certain kinds of reactions because of the way you phrase your criticisms. You have a right to say what you want, but if it creates negative reactions, only you can decide if it's worth it.

    You could ask yourself, apart from complaining when people put up lousy pix, is there any other reason for your comments? By pointing out that hair is messy, etc., does it add value to the poster? Is it just to express displeasure at someone who is putting up such a lousy pix that you want to vomit?

    I come across a lot of pix I don't like in CS. They suck, to put it baldly. If I posted "It sucks" on every pix I don't like, I would not have time to do other things in life, like go to B&S forum. Plus, I know that not only might I create unhappiness by saying "it sucks" all the time, it makes me appear arrogant and all, and most importantly, I know I'm not adding any value to the poster with such terse comments. Since I don't have the time or energy to write a useful critique for the poster, I refrain from posting and move on. The poster doesn't need me to tell him it sucks. Sooner or later, either others will tell him, or he will realise when he sees better work. And in any case, saying "it sucks" is not going to stop more lousy pix from being posted, now or in the future.

    Live and let live is not a bad principle. See something you don't like? Move on to something you like. Life is short.

    ===

    Freedom of expression exists, but so does Newton's Third Law. It's not about how others dictate or restrain how you should behave, but about whether you want to pay the price for your behaviour, and what reactions you will get from others when you behave in a certain manner.

    Your choice.

    This is my last post on this issue. I'm tired already. I have never commented on any of your pix, neither have you on mine, so hopefully we have no axes to grind with each other.

    Wai Leong
    ===
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    Actually, using your logic, you claimed that my comments create angers, bad feelings in others, I can also say, some of these pictures posted really "sucks", they are offensive. If I advocate that these picture should not be posted, would that work?

    Posting pictures is portected under the freedm of expression I cherished. Some of te sugar coated "nice" comments are very offensive in nature, but it's the poster's right to express themselves as they see fit, nomatter how much I don't like it.

    Your Geylang example does not serve your purpose. It's the photographer's right to take the picture at Lor 8, however, the photographer has to be aware of risk he is taking. His rights to take picture is never in question here. His health maybe. Likewise, are you suggesting that my health maybe in question if I am only being honest and straight forward here in CS?

    The price to pay to exercise my freedom of expression is, if I do not exercise it, I am relinquishing my rights and allow others to determine what and how I can express myself. The price is too high to pay.

    I have a question for you. Why are you so afraid of the truth?
    Last edited by waileong; 4th May 2006 at 12:23 AM.

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Comments on Pictures posted, lies or truths?

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong
    I'm not afraid of the truth. However, I regret that I couldn't get across my points to you, even after so many examples.

    In my few postings, I've tried to explain:

    a. That in many cases, people who are "sharing" pictures are not looking for "comments" per se, yours or anybody elses', they really want to share their latest pix, whether it's from a CS TL model shoot, pix of their kids, colleagues, dogs or cats, etc.

    b. That not all "comments" are created equal. You can go several levels in giving comments. Pointing out the obvious flaws (eyes not equal size, hair messy, over-PS, etc) is very basic, doesn't help the poster much. Offering basic suggestions (crop like this, crop like that, nitpick this and that) is just a small increment, still doesn't help much.

    To give a valuable critique takes so much time and energy it's unbelievable. You have to have the poster's growth as a photographer at heart. You have to criticise not because you want to point out his flaws, but because you want to help him improve. You have to show him what he did well, what he did not, what he could have done, how that could have improved the pix, perhaps even suggest a whole new way of doing things, etc.

    You have to guess what he was trying to achieve and his level of development before you can even begin. And like student said, even then it's not always certain that you should impose your standards on someone else.

    Eg. you may be a classical photographer who follows the rule of thirds, use warming filters all the time, maximise DOF, use tripod, etc. while the poster may be a totally different creature following a totally different path. How could you give a relevant critique in such a situation?

    For these reasons, genuine and valuable critiques are rare, which is why we lament the poor quality of the C&C forum.

    c. That when people do want comments (eg if they post in C&C forum), how you comment can affect how people react to you. You can give criticism nicely or harshly. You're getting certain kinds of reactions because of the way you phrase your criticisms. You have a right to say what you want, but if it creates negative reactions, only you can decide if it's worth it.

    You could ask yourself, apart from complaining when people put up lousy pix, is there any other reason for your comments? By pointing out that hair is messy, etc., does it add value to the poster? Is it just to express displeasure at someone who is putting up such a lousy pix that you want to vomit?

    I come across a lot of pix I don't like in CS. They suck, to put it baldly. If I posted "It sucks" on every pix I don't like, I would not have time to do other things in life, like go to B&S forum. Plus, I know that not only might I create unhappiness by saying "it sucks" all the time, it makes me appear arrogant and all, and most importantly, I know I'm not adding any value to the poster with such terse comments. Since I don't have the time or energy to write a useful critique for the poster, I refrain from posting and move on. The poster doesn't need me to tell him it sucks. Sooner or later, either others will tell him, or he will realise when he sees better work. And in any case, saying "it sucks" is not going to stop more lousy pix from being posted, now or in the future.

    Live and let live is not a bad principle. See something you don't like? Move on to something you like. Life is short.

    ===

    Freedom of expression exists, but so does Newton's Third Law. It's not about how others dictate or restrain how you should behave, but about whether you want to pay the price for your behaviour, and what reactions you will get from others when you behave in a certain manner.

    Your choice
    ===
    Well said. Express my sentiments exactly in a much better way. In short, context. What is the backdrop and context of the person that u are posting to? Freedom of speech does not necessary means democracy. Human rights may mean criminal rights. So, it must be at the level of the context that the comments be given.

  17. #77

    Default Re: Comments on Pictures posted, lies or truths?

    I am going to go out on a limb on this one. My detractors will have a field day, but hell, do I carel.

    Of course, action and reaction, I am fully aware of it. Or else, why did I start this thread. I can still keep on posting happily, slamming every messy hair and abstract image in sight.

    My right to freedom of expression should not be subjected to how other people feels, how their ego might be trashed, or they might loose interest in photography. I may decide to be gental, and sugar coat my comments, but that is a decision I alone make, not a requirement, as some had gravitated towards.

    Regarding posting pictures for all to enjoy and not looking for comments, I have said it a thousand times, say comments not welcome, I will shut up. However, CS is a public forum, residing on the internet, the most public of all places. The public may and will comment on ANY thing they see fit to comment. Whether the poster was looking for comments or not it DOES NOT MATTER, because like it or not, comments will come his/her way.

    Someone suggested that, when I commented, "the hair is messy" or "the eyes are one big one small," they are too obvious a flaw to help the poster. If they are too obvious, the poster would have fixed it. Btw, a step at a time gemeltmen, I think pointing out obvious flaws is better than the "nice" comments.

    I do not impose my standard on anyone, maybe with the exception regarding freedom of expression. I say what I think, everyone else say what they see, we all agree to disagree. However, there are just too many of those out there, who does not feel I have the right to express an opposing opinion.

    About helping the poster to grow. I am not that self deluded to feel I can do it, nor do I have the drive to do so. Poster posted a picture in a public forum. The picture is automatically subjected to the scrutiny of the public, and criticisms if the picture mertis such criticisms.

    Criticism by nature is pointing out flaws. The receiver can choose to take that criticisms and learn from it, or trashed it. I really don't care how my comments are bing treated. All I care is I am honest about it. If the picture sucks, I say it. If the model's hair is messy, I say it, and if I see something I like or don't like, I say it without sugar coating it.

    To all, please criticise my pictures. I will ignore some, I will listern to some, I will learn from some, and trashed the rest. Feelings are never in question.
    deadpoet
    my portfolio

  18. #78

    Default Re: Comments on Pictures posted, lies or truths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ihsan Chua
    ... Freedom of speech does not necessary means democracy. Human rights may mean criminal rights. ....
    Talk about being totally ot of here.

    Freedom of expression (I prefer to use the word expression over speech, no big deal) of course does not equate democracy. Freedm of expression is the most fundamental of all rights a human can demand and expect. Without freedom of expression, democracy cannot flourish.

    "Human right means criminal rights" Yes, criminals have rights also. They have the right to a fair and impartial trial, they have the right to not be subject to cruel and unusual punishment, they, even if convicted, still hve the right to freedom of expression.

    Are you advocating that criminals should be stripped of all human rights? No human being should ever be stripped of his/her human rights. Criminal or not.
    deadpoet
    my portfolio

  19. #79

    Default Re: Comments on Pictures posted, lies or truths?

    All because of?
    EGO

  20. #80

    Default Re: Comments on Pictures posted, lies or truths?

    When i post pictures here, waiting for helpful critiques, i cant get any.
    Left disappointed, i no longer post anything here but my mindless comments

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