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Thread: Bad Photography

  1. #41
    Moderator John Teoh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bad Photography

    Quote Originally Posted by clarinet
    School love to do that... Now I'm sick and tired of them.
    Office also. But for me, I take it as a chance to learn.

    Anyway funny things in my office event a few days ago is that all the VIPs just walk into the hall and sat without even us realising.
    Last edited by John Teoh; 14th April 2006 at 09:45 AM.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Bad Photography

    Quote Originally Posted by John Teoh
    Office also. But for me, I take it as a chance to learn.

    Anyway funny things in my office event a few days ago is that all the VIPs just walk into the hall and sat without even us realising.
    Maybe we should also put up another thread for Bad Event Organisers. Hehehehe ....

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Bad Photography

    Hiee...

    I Guess..there may be a few reasons where an event shoot may turn out bad....such as:

    - Not knowing whats going on - some event organisers may not have detailed plans or time table of the event itself. Not having a time table may then lead to the photographer not able to prepare well for the event - like going on location for presets of lighting or study of shots angle etc....

    - Due to cost constrians, people may "lookout" for budget photographers - who may not have such event experiences. New Photogs may not know the importance to come earlier to test the scene lighting, space, compositional opportunities....etc. Involve in rehersals.
    This then leads to photog may feel that he should carry more than what he needs.....in an in case basis - then realising that he may or may not have the luxury to swap lens (wide to tele to wide) etc... Busy on changing lens most of the times results in loosing important shots.

    - Organisers may not have briefed the photogs well.

    - Extra bits of surprise from premises owners - In some cases Premises Owners like Hotels may "give" some surprise present such as "free" spot lights on say a VIP or Wedding couple on an isle.... All these needs to be made known to the event photogrpaher as these super bright spot lights may at times ruin your exposure sand shots.... ASK ASK ASK!!!! the organisers if there are other stufs like these...

    - Losing shots just trying to imitate - Some photogs here in CS who are new and may have seen superb works of those experienced ones may want to copy the style and while trying spend more time composing to fit whats on their mind too long ....shots are lost and other things out of the view finder that is happening may not be captured...

    the list goes on....therefore for those who want to go for events and so on....or even weddings...preparing for such tasks in depth ....there are specialised courses in CS that are organised by those like SLCC , PSS etc......all these plus gradual experiences and exposure will often help....

    Main thing is....do not spoil the industry....by accepting mediocre prices. One can PM some of those experience ones privately...for inputs. End up Spoiling CLUBSNAP image.

  4. #44

    Default Re: Bad Photography

    agreed on this...seen my fair share of glam performers, emcees, etc and say no $$$/budget for photographer...

    or a unknown performer/juggler who gets paid abt 300 to 500 for 1 show (30mins) and can only pay $150 for photography....hahaha

    we definitely need a cartel or to be treated more fairly.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Bad Photography

    Quote Originally Posted by keoki
    A certain photographer (a member of clubsnap also) was engaged to take photographs for an event by the company. Just viewed the photos from the CD, and although I didn't like his photography style (no focal point at all), but it is up to individuals (some people may like it). It turned out that there are plenty of precious moments that were not captured and important people were out of the picture!! Imagine a group of 7 VIPs posing for the photo became only 6 VIPs!

    As photographers (amatuers and pro), is this acceptable at all? As paying client, will you accept the work? My fellow colleague called the photographer after viewing, he apologised and say he will accept only half payment. The key question here isn't really about the money, events can never repeat themselves and precious moments can never be re-enacted.

    For us, we can waive the entire photography fees from the client, but what will the client think? We use this photographer for the first time because a fellow CSer have a prior engagement, and although he was not the cheapest, we viewed his portfolio and thought, not bad, can use him.

    Lesson learnt: Portfolio can be VERY deceiving, showcasing 1 good one and hiding the bad ones is reality.

    Would like to hear CSers' opinions.
    The fella can be shooting crap as far as I'm concerned, but when missing out crucial moments in events (for example a VIP planting or putting on finishing touches to something, a VIP group photo, VIPs signing something, talking), these are absolutely important stuff that even if it looks like a plain snapshot (never mind abt rule of thirds, etc), MUST BE TAKEN REGARDLESS.

    I can't believe that as a wedding/event photographer who's paid to do the job can actually miss out things like these.

    An event photographer who actually misses things like these ought to be shot, his camera removed from him and barred from photography for the next 10yrs.
    "Wonders of the Human Mind. Unfathomable to the highest degree."

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Bad Photography

    Quote Originally Posted by fiftybucks
    Just a question... was the photographer briefed before the event?

    It is the responsibility to the hirer to brief the photographer who the VIPs are and what the crucial moments are (based on the program for the day).

    VIPs to a particular company or organisation may not be easily identifyable.

    Example: CEO of Geshundit tissue manufacturer V.S. CEO of Micorsoft.
    just my fifty bucks worth
    Even if the CEO's not outstanding, its still inexcusable for the event photographer to switch off.

    There are also times when I wasn't fully briefed on certain things during events, weddings, ceremonies and was given an extremely vague rundown but I still covered crucial stuff. My policy's to keep an eye open throughout the entire event and make sure that even if I have to sweat buckets by last minute emcee announcements and changes by running ahead of the pack, I would do it.
    "Wonders of the Human Mind. Unfathomable to the highest degree."

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Bad Photography

    Quote Originally Posted by jOhO
    hands up those photographers who's ever done a good job, where even the customer says so, but has not been paid. (mine's up)
    Sounds like what I'd experienced in 2005.

    hands up those photographers who's delivered above and beyond expectations but still get haggered for discounts. (mine's up again)
    i got haggered for discounts even BEFORE the shoot began and after the shoot still want left, want right. Again, it happened in 2005.

    hands up those photographers who's done a job for cheap because the company insists on a very tight budget but the emcees present that nite are the flying dutchmen and glenn ong. (mine is DEFINITELY up!!)
    Fortunately, not yet. I'd hit the roof and resize the photos 320x240 72dpi thumbnails and put on additional charges if this were to happen. Never mind if I'm going to lose this 1 customer. I dun depend on my part-time job for my meals and bills.

    another thing, about posting his name in the forum. if you do that you're not wrong. but then i'll probably not be accepting any jobs referred from clubsnap in future. it's not worth it lor. one mistake could cost me my ricebowl. clubsnap is the most influential forum for singaporean photographers and not a place i'd like my name black listed. and don't say if i'm pro enuff i won't make mistakes. everyone's heard of the phrase : everyone makes mistakes. u might not wanna engage me again after my mistake, but u dun have to destroy my ricebowl.
    Well, I guess that's why photographers are so friggin' stress these days. I always get butterflies in my stomach whenever I get a lobang. "Do-or-die" is my policy since I know jolly well as a freelancer, I can't afford 1 single mistake.

    sorree if i've offended anyone, just my lengthy humble opinion that i seldom seem to give nowadays in clubsnap, maybe for fear of being blacklisted!! ahhaha duhz....
    Well, if its the truth, there's no fear of being blacklisted or being banned. I cuss, I swore, I sound like one heck of a lamer here and elsewhere (as some of u might had seen my nick), the truth is always harsh and an extremely bitter medicine to swallow. If they can't stand it, use the ignore function or calls for me to get banned is just a PM away.
    "Wonders of the Human Mind. Unfathomable to the highest degree."

  8. #48
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Bad Photography

    Do be aware that you may end up not only being sued by your client for not delivering on the photographs, you may also get sued by the photographer for non-payment.

    That's unfortunately the risks of earning $$ via being a middleman - you bear the risks on both sides.

    On a final note, you have not mentioned if you knew in advance that he's an amateur - this is the reason why people hire professionals - they do this every day. If you choose to spend less to hire an amateur - you also bear the risk of anything going wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by keoki
    From fellow CSers' comments, I will most likely not pay him, but really its not about the money, its the reputation. I was expecting some negative comments like hiring a back-up photographer, etc. But looks like most fellow CSers felt disgusted by the issue.

    Not too sure if I shall name him here, but my colleagues commented if we should think twice about looking for a photographer through this forum. No offence.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Bad Photography

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    Do be aware that you may end up not only being sued by your client for not delivering on the photographs, you may also get sued by the photographer for non-payment.

    That's unfortunately the risks of earning $$ via being a middleman - you bear the risks on both sides.

    On a final note, you have not mentioned if you knew in advance that he's an amateur - this is the reason why people hire professionals - they do this every day. If you choose to spend less to hire an amateur - you also bear the risk of anything going wrong.
    well said

    My advice: hire the right kind of person for the job. Classic example.

  10. #50

    Default Re: Bad Photography

    lesson learnt but then as time passes, it will revert back to the same problem...

  11. #51

    Default Re: Bad Photography

    Quote Originally Posted by jOhO
    it's a tough industry, i say.

    so any freelancers still wanna shoot for cheap? wait kena sue then u know ar!

    ok jokes aside.

    i feel this thread is detrimental to the photography society on the whole. most of us here are photographers, doesn't matter if u are shooting for money or fun. i dun think we need to "beat" the photographer to death here.

    if this was a forum for redress against bad photographers then sure, fire away. but this community is to promote photography and encourage one another. sure some of the tips are valid, like taking the time to scan thru suitable photographers by seeing a comprehensive portfolio and perhaps paying slightly more for an experienced one if it's an important event. but i am disturbed that we only see one side of the story.

    hands up those photographers who's ever done a good job, where even the customer says so, but has not been paid. (mine's up)

    hands up those photographers who's delivered above and beyond expectations but still get haggered for discounts. (mine's up again)

    hands up those photographers who's done a job for cheap because the company insists on a very tight budget but the emcees present that nite are the flying dutchmen and glenn ong. (mine is DEFINITELY up!!)

    i would say poor paymasters and entities with poor ethics are mainly corporations. i won't name any but i'm sure my stats are right. it's basically business, the longer u can owe, the better, time value of money, basic finance.

    i'm not saying in this case that the company in question is BAD. no way, but please, stop bashing the photographer. u know i might end up seeing the images and agree that they suck, but i dun feel this is a condusive way to seek redress, by bashing him in a forum that should be promoting fellow photographers.

    another thing, about posting his name in the forum. if you do that you're not wrong. but then i'll probably not be accepting any jobs referred from clubsnap in future. it's not worth it lor. one mistake could cost me my ricebowl. clubsnap is the most influential forum for singaporean photographers and not a place i'd like my name black listed. and don't say if i'm pro enuff i won't make mistakes. everyone's heard of the phrase : everyone makes mistakes. u might not wanna engage me again after my mistake, but u dun have to destroy my ricebowl.

    i'm trying to be objective here and put myself in the situation as customer receiving BAD images for my wedding, touch wood should this happen. i sincerely believe that i would take the case privately, i might chatise the photographer or watever, but it stays private, provided he didn't intentionally c0ck up my wedding becos say, my enemies paid him to do so.. ahha ok abit far-fetched, but u get my point.

    i repeat my first statement. it's a tough industry this one. how many here truly know this?

    sorree if i've offended anyone, just my lengthy humble opinion that i seldom seem to give nowadays in clubsnap, maybe for fear of being blacklisted!! ahhaha duhz....

    actually..........those situation u stated...happens in other field of freelancing too, like developing of websites........and this has reframed me from taking freelance...LOL..although not deliberately not taking.......but hey.......some quote are just too....not worth the time.
    ok...getting off point....

    but ya...shd....leave a path for the photographer....he might have some other reasons....liek get blocked..or what..and ya human do make mistake.......simple yet impt ones though. well but still leave a way out for him/her.
    DSLR newbie: 400D + Tamron 18-200mm + 50mm F1.8 (i simply love it!)
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  12. #52

    Default Re: Bad Photography

    Quote Originally Posted by rueyloon

    Unless you have a very tight budget ,CS isn't the place to look for professional service. Here you get a group of hobbiest, whom at times can do good work, but on the average, produces average quality work. Out there, there is a group of full time professionals, whom at times can do bad work, but on the average, produces better quality work. If you're handing events at a professional level, you should get intouch with the circle of professional photographers.

    And lastly about payment, it was your decision to hire the guy, you should pay him no matter what the result was. Photography isn't a "if I happy then I pay" type of service. There is a whole range of photographers to choose from, different prices, different experience level etc. etc. but you decided on him, it was a "cost" vs "time constraint" vs "convienence" equation that resulted in your decision to hire him.

    The final quality of the work you received was decided by you, not the photographer.

    cheers
    I totally agree with rueyloon and cyber_monkey
    plus I am seriously not siding with THE photographer but rather jus photographers which seems to have irked a few photographers (pls forgive me)

    legally speaking: the terms of contract are not stated clearly. so it is assumed that the photog was hired to shoot for the event and you pay him end of story.

    it is unfortunate that he produced less than acceptable work. but then he did try to make up by offering compensation. of cos it is debatable if the compensation is enuff (esp for memories that can't be recreated)
    but if you refuse payment to him I wld think that you are setting a precedent for others to NOT pay for photographic services when you are displeased. (are you going to still use his photos by the way)
    i can imagine that this will create a bigger setback to ALL photographers out there.
    not to mention the fact that everyone's expectations of a minimal quality is varied. So what's stopping others from doing the same to rip the photographer off (not you of cos..but u get wat i mean)

    i can understand how angry you are, and so wld I.. the tot of not paying him will cross my mind as well. but in the end i hope u will do the right thing. its an expensive lesson but it definitely is a warning to those who hire from CS to be more aware.

  13. #53

    Default Re: Bad Photography

    Nobody know how bad the picture is... except the pic that u mention 7VIP, only 6VIP in the photo.. but ok, even this is a bad one how about the rest?

    If the picture isn't what u expect or what you like, then it is not really the photographer fault. Not photographer can please everyone, i am sure someone find the photo acceptable.

    But it is quite sure it isn't very nice to open a thread just to put this 'unknown' photographer on trial to ease your anger.. what he had done wrong? how much you have paid and why client always think they have the 'right'? did you get lazy and try to spoilt the event?

    He did the job, may just not good enough, then you learn, and he learn too. Nobody's fault.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Bad Photography

    Believe the photographer also feels bad when the customer rejected their work. This is the learning curve, they will do better next time. When doing a job, always ask yourself if you are the organiser what type of photo you want.

    Cheer! don't give up

  15. #55

    Default Re: Bad Photography

    Bad photography refers simply to the 6 out of 7 VIPs photography. He took 6 of those shots ALL of the 6 photos shows only 6 persons. Although there are other photographers on site (holding non-DSLR cams), obviously he was not blocked at all. Its not about the style of the photography, I do not think it is fair to ever deduct $$ for somebody's photography that is not of your taste, but its the essential shots that matters.

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