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Thread: Bad Photography

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Bad Photography

    Quote Originally Posted by espn
    Then if nobody asked, it's everybody's fault?
    It's not the event organiser's fault.

    If an EVENT photographer fails to bother to find out what his job entails, he's not suitable. I've had photographers who can't recognise the VIP come up to me and ask for a photo. I didn't have, so in the end I got someone to point him out.

    Some of the photographers now ah, very cocky. Dunno if they think they are still children, everyone must consult them before being allowed to continue. Think they don't get the point that they're being paid to do things. Simply not interested in the job.

    Event organisers do not owe it to the photographers to brief them. Whilst they still do to hopefully avoid c*ck ups, they may not have time at all. If such c*ck ups happen, the photographer will be blacklisted forever by whom i'm working for. There's always more eager and interested amateur event photographers out there.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Bad Photography

    it's the photographer's fault

    not interested in the job, then don't take it up.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Bad Photography

    i think both party shd be responsible......never find out enough information?

    did the company ask how many events and what sort of events did the photographer covered before? Portfolio could be very deceiving....as many said. experience too can be but more questions can let u find out more.

    So i guess it could be the organiser never find out enough details of the photographer (or the photographer is lying when replying these question...) and the photograher did not ask enough question about the event (unless is the organiser did not provide much info even after he asked...)
    DSLR newbie: 400D + Tamron 18-200mm + 50mm F1.8 (i simply love it!)
    Canon G2

  4. #24

    Default Re: Bad Photography

    Now let's just say if the photographer did not bother finding out the programme, a guest holding a personal handheld camera will even know not to miss anyone out when 7 of them are standing in a ROW!! Posing for the camera!! The emcee invite these 7 VIPs to the front to officiate the ceremony, this should be obvious enough??

    The situation I am stuck with is the: When the client is deciding on whether they should engage their regular photographer or use my photographer, they asked if our photographer is experienced enough. The fact that we have been using one regular CSer, that has been doing a wonderful job, I did not foresee that he has a prior engagement (that being on a weekday). So I readily said yes, my photographer is an experienced one. But after knowing he has been booked, we had to hire one from the list of other CSers I have compiled. Expecting the basics, I did not expect him to produce such c*ck up shots. I even have to prompt my staff to catch hold of him to the entrance to capture the arrival of the Guest of Honour at the entrance. He was expected to sign the scroll there, so he was slow, but at least still capture something.

    This client of mine has been with us for a while now, but all these while they have been using their regular photographer, but with the switch to use ours, this thing happened, it really tarnish our record, especially with the client. If it is just a one-off client, we will not be that disappointed, but a regular client, we felt ASHAMED. Ashamed that we performed a 10/10 in the past, now we wonder how they rate us.

    From fellow CSers' comments, I will most likely not pay him, but really its not about the money, its the reputation. I was expecting some negative comments like hiring a back-up photographer, etc. But looks like most fellow CSers felt disgusted by the issue.

    Not too sure if I shall name him here, but my colleagues commented if we should think twice about looking for a photographer through this forum. No offence.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Bad Photography

    From what I think. The decent thing to do is to pay him the agreed amount but not use him again. Unless he offers to accept partial payment or waive the charge then its his call, but on your part, withholding payment is not acceptable behaviour.

    The crux of the issue is that you made the decision to take a risk and hire him, so it was your judgement and your choice, so you must face up to the consequences of your decision.

    Its really not about the money, but the reputation, hence, just pay him, but state clearly why you will not be using him in future and henceforth, make the extra effort to hire an experienced and reputable photographer whom you trust for a major event.

    Just as any self-respecting photographer wouldn't try to use untested gear for a paid shoot, an event organiser should not risk an untested photog for an important shoot with a major client. You could very well have avoided the risk by letting your client use their trusted photog instead.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Bad Photography

    I think you said it yourself, the problem is that you hired someone from a list. You got someone to do a job for you that you have no prior experience working with and neither did you get anyone else's opinion about this guy's service level or experience before deciding on him. You should be handling the situation, in this case you should have just told your client that your regular shooter isn't available and they should engage their regular for this event.

    Unless you have a very tight budget ,CS isn't the place to look for professional service. Here you get a group of hobbiest, whom at times can do good work, but on the average, produces average quality work. Out there, there is a group of full time professionals, whom at times can do bad work, but on the average, produces better quality work. If you're handing events at a professional level, you should get intouch with the circle of professional photographers.

    And lastly about payment, it was your decision to hire the guy, you should pay him no matter what the result was. Photography isn't a "if I happy then I pay" type of service. There is a whole range of photographers to choose from, different prices, different experience level etc. etc. but you decided on him, it was a "cost" vs "time constraint" vs "convienence" equation that resulted in your decision to hire him.

    The final quality of the work you received was decided by you, not the photographer.

    cheers
    36frames Wedding Photography - http://www.36frames.com
    rueyloon - http://www.rueyloon.com

  7. #27

    Default Re: Bad Photography

    Quote Originally Posted by rueyloon
    I think you said it yourself, the problem is that you hired someone from a list. You got someone to do a job for you that you have no prior experience working with and neither did you get anyone else's opinion about this guy's service level or experience before deciding on him. You should be handling the situation, in this case you should have just told your client that your regular shooter isn't available and they should engage their regular for this event.

    Unless you have a very tight budget ,CS isn't the place to look for professional service. Here you get a group of hobbiest, whom at times can do good work, but on the average, produces average quality work. Out there, there is a group of full time professionals, whom at times can do bad work, but on the average, produces better quality work. If you're handing events at a professional level, you should get intouch with the circle of professional photographers.

    And lastly about payment, it was your decision to hire the guy, you should pay him no matter what the result was. Photography isn't a "if I happy then I pay" type of service. There is a whole range of photographers to choose from, different prices, different experience level etc. etc. but you decided on him, it was a "cost" vs "time constraint" vs "convienence" equation that resulted in your decision to hire him.

    The final quality of the work you received was decided by you, not the photographer.

    cheers


    i could never understand also when one offers his/her photography services in CS. Almost everyone is a photog, he/she should engaged ppl at the right audience. Its like asking who needs to see a GP at a Doc's forum.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Bad Photography

    I beg to differ, at least slightly. Here the issue is not about the style, angle, etc. Its about missing out 1 person standing in a row!! Its for a posed photography too! You mean if the LCD / viewfinder is faulty, I must accept it?

    Hobbyist or professional, the crux of the matter is attitude and basic skills. For someone to take that kind of pictures, its not even a photographer, my friends 2.5year old son also know how to look at the LCD to make sure the object in within the frame to take picture.

    As for the money, maybe I should pay him (not in full), but also contribute the photos of the 6/7 person as a case studies for photography course.

    BTW, I know of many CSers who are professional photographer, but if your defination of a professional is that the company must be listed or advertise somewhere, I beg to differ again. Have used not just 1 pro here from CSer, but a handful, and they are all full-time into photography. Where I admire about CSers (although not all) are the enthusiasm behind them, which some 'pros' from big name companies are lacking.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Bad Photography

    ohya.........on top of that....although the photo is not taken well, and as far as i see is both party problem......BUT irregardless of whose fault, payment should be paid fully since the photography at least did turn up to shoot.

    I know its hard now...since he caused u to suffer damage...but imagine if a client says the event was not well covered and dun pay u a single cents? not good right........even if this should happen...it shd be initiated by u not the one who pay u right. SO you should still pay in full however if the photographer reject or only wanna take half then its fine.
    DSLR newbie: 400D + Tamron 18-200mm + 50mm F1.8 (i simply love it!)
    Canon G2

  10. #30

    Default Re: Bad Photography

    Quote Originally Posted by keoki
    BTW, I know of many CSers who are professional photographer, but if your defination of a professional is that the company must be listed or advertise somewhere, I beg to differ again. Have used not just 1 pro here from CSer, but a handful, and they are all full-time into photography. Where I admire about CSers (although not all) are the enthusiasm behind them, which some 'pros' from big name companies are lacking.
    I'm sure you know what a professional is. They may or may not be enthusiastic, but they are the ones that can get the job done. So does the guy's enthusiasm makes up for the 6/7 group shot ?
    36frames Wedding Photography - http://www.36frames.com
    rueyloon - http://www.rueyloon.com

  11. #31

    Default Re: Bad Photography

    Quote Originally Posted by keoki
    As for the money, maybe I should pay him (not in full), but also contribute the photos of the 6/7 person as a case studies for photography course.
    By all means, reflect your feedback to him by telling him that he sucks, or even tell all your friends about it. Ultimately he is responsible for the quality of work produced.

    However, I'd still maintain that paying in full (unless offered otherwise) is the most prudent thing to do to show that you are a good client and beyond reproach. After all, he did the job, and put in the hours. He was selected by you after viewing the portfolio, so you have to bear the responsibility for it as well. Can't just shift all the blame to the photog here. Moreover, cockups can still happen, even to experienced photogs, just that they are alot more consistent. Would you have withheld/reduced payment to your regular photog as well if he ever fumbled?

  12. #32

    Default Re: Bad Photography

    He has offered to accept half payment, when called to explained about the situation. I did not mentioned the explanation he gave: "My main camera broke down during the event, so I have to use my old backup camera, but I am not familiar with it". It take it to be an excuse rather than an explanation, the shots were not over-exposed or under-exposed, nor was the ISO settings wrong. Its the question of how the hell did he snap the pics?? Surely, he can count, right?

  13. #33

    Default Re: Bad Photography

    Quote Originally Posted by keoki
    He has offered to accept half payment, when called to explained about the situation. I did not mentioned the explanation he gave: "My main camera broke down during the event, so I have to use my old backup camera, but I am not familiar with it". It take it to be an excuse rather than an explanation, the shots were not over-exposed or under-exposed, nor was the ISO settings wrong. Its the question of how the hell did he snap the pics?? Surely, he can count, right?
    sometimes, when it comes to the crunch, many things can happen etc, when one backup camera is used, maybe he does not have time to swap to a wider lens, was block by other photogs/ppl. There are so many variabies, its just that a more experience photog will anticpate to a better degree. i say, its easy to shift the blame to the photog, but to shoot an event only the photog knows how tough the situation is that the moment. Really next time hire a more experience photog and or brief in detail.

    I have encountered hosts whom never give any instructions, i ask for a brief, they say free and easy and after the 4 day shoot start asking if i have shot this/that...

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Bad Photography

    digi~ET => The costs of event management is broken down into small components. It's not a one cover all fee. You want sound system, you pay for it, they'll magic it out for you. They'll get you all the necessary license from COMPASS, etc etc.. You will physically get what you pay for. You want photographs, you pay, you get photographer + photographs. It's all out in a written contract/quotation etc.
    I'm not sure of the implications, but keoki's company may be in legal trouble if suddenly the client decides to sue for breaking the contract for not providing photos in the end.

    It's not unreasonable to expect basics such as capturing all the VIPs on the stage. Given that the photographer didn't, it's not unreasonable to conclude a breach of contract by the photographer. Under a breach of contract, keoki has got no obligations to pay the photographer even a cent, provided he doesn't use any of the photos taken. If he does hor, then the agreed sum (half in this case) should be paid.

    alternatively sue the photographer for a job not done/breach of contract. will end up losing more $$, but at least something to answer to clients with.

    keoki=>
    Can always negotiate for all the photos to the event for free from the photographer in exchange for not being named here. It's the only win-win situation I see. you can waive the fees for your client, you can give them complimentary photos, the photographer won't lose his future income, and hopefully this won't piss that client off too much.

    Otherwise you lose face with your client, lose future deals, nothing to give to clients.
    If you don't pay the photog, he's just lost this round of $$, while you will continue losing $$ in the future. If you pay him, you lose $$ overall, and it becomes a you lose he win situation.
    If you name him, you're both just in the same boat. a lose-lose situation.

    Though, I still think you should name him under the consumer section. Or here. And have something done about that list you went through..

    Also tip: next time perhaps should ask to see one or two complete events that the photographer has covered. If you expect 200 photos out from your event, should at least see 200 photos in each event. If out of the 400, 320 are up to your expectations, then it shouldn't be too bad. Otherwise hor.. next better player..

  15. #35
    Senior Member jOhO's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bad Photography

    it's a tough industry, i say.

    so any freelancers still wanna shoot for cheap? wait kena sue then u know ar!

    ok jokes aside.

    i feel this thread is detrimental to the photography society on the whole. most of us here are photographers, doesn't matter if u are shooting for money or fun. i dun think we need to "beat" the photographer to death here.

    if this was a forum for redress against bad photographers then sure, fire away. but this community is to promote photography and encourage one another. sure some of the tips are valid, like taking the time to scan thru suitable photographers by seeing a comprehensive portfolio and perhaps paying slightly more for an experienced one if it's an important event. but i am disturbed that we only see one side of the story.

    hands up those photographers who's ever done a good job, where even the customer says so, but has not been paid. (mine's up)

    hands up those photographers who's delivered above and beyond expectations but still get haggered for discounts. (mine's up again)

    hands up those photographers who's done a job for cheap because the company insists on a very tight budget but the emcees present that nite are the flying dutchmen and glenn ong. (mine is DEFINITELY up!!)

    i would say poor paymasters and entities with poor ethics are mainly corporations. i won't name any but i'm sure my stats are right. it's basically business, the longer u can owe, the better, time value of money, basic finance.

    i'm not saying in this case that the company in question is BAD. no way, but please, stop bashing the photographer. u know i might end up seeing the images and agree that they suck, but i dun feel this is a condusive way to seek redress, by bashing him in a forum that should be promoting fellow photographers.

    another thing, about posting his name in the forum. if you do that you're not wrong. but then i'll probably not be accepting any jobs referred from clubsnap in future. it's not worth it lor. one mistake could cost me my ricebowl. clubsnap is the most influential forum for singaporean photographers and not a place i'd like my name black listed. and don't say if i'm pro enuff i won't make mistakes. everyone's heard of the phrase : everyone makes mistakes. u might not wanna engage me again after my mistake, but u dun have to destroy my ricebowl.

    i'm trying to be objective here and put myself in the situation as customer receiving BAD images for my wedding, touch wood should this happen. i sincerely believe that i would take the case privately, i might chatise the photographer or watever, but it stays private, provided he didn't intentionally c0ck up my wedding becos say, my enemies paid him to do so.. ahha ok abit far-fetched, but u get my point.

    i repeat my first statement. it's a tough industry this one. how many here truly know this?

    sorree if i've offended anyone, just my lengthy humble opinion that i seldom seem to give nowadays in clubsnap, maybe for fear of being blacklisted!! ahhaha duhz....
    Last edited by jOhO; 14th April 2006 at 05:30 AM.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Bad Photography

    me 2 cts as a newbie.
    I've done a few events... missed a few important fotos because I didnt check clearly with the client or simply messed up & missed the shot. But bottomline, I strongly feel it's the responsibility of the photographer to try his/her best to ask the requirements clearly & photograph everything, especially if hes shooting digital. Some clients dont need fancy shots, they just need shots of almost everything, even if they're boring...
    Last edited by Rev; 14th April 2006 at 06:28 AM.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Bad Photography

    Let's see the pics.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Bad Photography

    What's his clubsnap username?

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Bad Photography

    Quote Originally Posted by keoki
    A certain photographer (a member of clubsnap also) was engaged to take photographs for an event by the company. Just viewed the photos from the CD, and although I didn't like his photography style (no focal point at all), but it is up to individuals (some people may like it). It turned out that there are plenty of precious moments that were not captured and important people were out of the picture!! Imagine a group of 7 VIPs posing for the photo became only 6 VIPs!

    As photographers (amatuers and pro), is this acceptable at all? As paying client, will you accept the work? My fellow colleague called the photographer after viewing, he apologised and say he will accept only half payment. The key question here isn't really about the money, events can never repeat themselves and precious moments can never be re-enacted.

    For us, we can waive the entire photography fees from the client, but what will the client think? We use this photographer for the first time because a fellow CSer have a prior engagement, and although he was not the cheapest, we viewed his portfolio and thought, not bad, can use him.

    Lesson learnt: Portfolio can be VERY deceiving, showcasing 1 good one and hiding the bad ones is reality.

    Would like to hear CSers' opinions.
    1st
    a group of 7 VIPs posing for the photo became only 6 VIPs!
    this one confirm totally unacceptable... event shots can go wrong but not VIP.... If u happen to see this thread, don't be discourage, no one is perfect from the start.

    And we are hearing one side of the story, so how true/half true/false we can't determine too.
    Last edited by clarinet; 14th April 2006 at 09:40 AM.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Bad Photography

    Quote Originally Posted by jOhO
    it's a tough industry, i say.

    so any freelancers still wanna shoot for cheap? wait kena sue then u know ar!

    ok jokes aside.

    i feel this thread is detrimental to the photography society on the whole. most of us here are photographers, doesn't matter if u are shooting for money or fun. i dun think we need to "beat" the photographer to death here.

    if this was a forum for redress against bad photographers then sure, fire away. but this community is to promote photography and encourage one another. sure some of the tips are valid, like taking the time to scan thru suitable photographers by seeing a comprehensive portfolio and perhaps paying slightly more for an experienced one if it's an important event. but i am disturbed that we only see one side of the story.

    hands up those photographers who's ever done a good job, where even the customer says so, but has not been paid. (mine's up)

    hands up those photographers who's delivered above and beyond expectations but still get haggered for discounts. (mine's up again)

    hands up those photographers who's done a job for cheap because the company insists on a very tight budget but the emcees present that nite are the flying dutchmen and glenn ong. (mine is DEFINITELY up!!)

    i would say poor paymasters and entities with poor ethics are mainly corporations. i won't name any but i'm sure my stats are right. it's basically business, the longer u can owe, the better, time value of money, basic finance.

    i'm not saying in this case that the company in question is BAD. no way, but please, stop bashing the photographer. u know i might end up seeing the images and agree that they suck, but i dun feel this is a condusive way to seek redress, by bashing him in a forum that should be promoting fellow photographers.

    another thing, about posting his name in the forum. if you do that you're not wrong. but then i'll probably not be accepting any jobs referred from clubsnap in future. it's not worth it lor. one mistake could cost me my ricebowl. clubsnap is the most influential forum for singaporean photographers and not a place i'd like my name black listed. and don't say if i'm pro enuff i won't make mistakes. everyone's heard of the phrase : everyone makes mistakes. u might not wanna engage me again after my mistake, but u dun have to destroy my ricebowl.

    i'm trying to be objective here and put myself in the situation as customer receiving BAD images for my wedding, touch wood should this happen. i sincerely believe that i would take the case privately, i might chatise the photographer or watever, but it stays private, provided he didn't intentionally c0ck up my wedding becos say, my enemies paid him to do so.. ahha ok abit far-fetched, but u get my point.

    i repeat my first statement. it's a tough industry this one. how many here truly know this?

    sorree if i've offended anyone, just my lengthy humble opinion that i seldom seem to give nowadays in clubsnap, maybe for fear of being blacklisted!! ahhaha duhz....
    School love to do that... Now I'm sick and tired of them.

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