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Thread: A Personal Comment, Motorshow 2002

  1. #41
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    well well,

    I've said it and I shall say it again.


    Photography is (At least in the Sporean context)

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Interrupt

    Originally posted by MatthewSCL
    But anyway, Taking models dont really need much composition compared to landscapes. I think..?
    Matthew, i hope you don't take it the wrong way but i find that stand you take very disconcerting.

    Maybe you ought to read this article on portrait photography

    No offense but itdoes involve alot of effort.
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    "High Wired, Dream Sired"

  3. #43
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    Well then, it most probably is the case for you.

    Say until like that...


    Originally posted by wildhoney
    well well,

    I've said it and I shall say it again.


    Photography is (At least in the Sporean context)

  4. #44
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    my jack russell terrier avatar appearing under wolfgang's wolf make quite a comical sight....


  5. #45
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    Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Interrupt

    Originally posted by tsdh

    That's mostly the "benefit" of digital, making people shooting without planning.

    I would like to ask:
    In event such as Motorshow where they put girls to accompany the products, if somebody take pictures of those girls without the product itself, would the photographers legally need a model-releases (or permission from exhibitor) to publish the pictures?
    Technically you'd require a model release for any commercial publication with the exception of Newspapers and other legitimate news items that fall under the 'public interest' heading as it were. Regarless of their status as an amateur or professional model, releases are still required if it's intended for publication and fees are sought.
    The Ang Moh from Hell
    Professional Photography - many are called, few are chosen!

  6. #46
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    Xdivider,

    I don't think I have any objections at all if the work was done in good taste and good faith, with the photographer really focused on the intention to learn. How many of those people who took pictures of these models would, hand on heart, have bothered pulling out their cameras if the subjects were stunning models?

    In all probability some had, but from what I've seen, many also had not. It really was just a case of, beautiful woman, point, shoot!

    Sure, feel the urge to learn, and by all means try to learn while shooting something visually appealing. But do not do it at the expense of only being able to learn while shooting something visually appealing, because that will mean you will become a photographer that can only get decent shots out of visually appealing subjects.

    The issue about it all is that, you cannot do portraiture *generally* in a situation such as this. It is a far from ideal situation, and hardly something to learn about. You cannot really engage in portraiture without the subject's co-operation really, and undivided attention, regardless of background and such.

    People have already replied to the comment that portraiture doesn't require much compositional skill so I won't go into that.

    To be honest, RE the comments having a large amount to do with this current objection, I don't feel in my case it would make any difference. The fact remains that there has been a sudden deluge of model pictures from the Motor Show, those I have seen are largely of no notable photographic strength, and it doesn't require a rocket scientist nor a brain surgeon to draw a deduction from that sudden surge in posts.

    Zekai, you're entitled to your view that nothing wrong has happened, but it does seem to contradict with your comment that we should also learn to respect the models (one that I wholeheartedly support). What has been seen recently is not my idea of respect though.

    Ian has largely dealt with the permissions issue.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Re: Interrupt

    Originally posted by Wolfgang


    Matthew, i hope you don't take it the wrong way but i find that stand you take very disconcerting.

    Maybe you ought to read this article on portrait photography

    No offense but itdoes involve alot of effort.
    Hi Wolfgang, definetly I am not offended...the website the link leads to is some how talking more towards studio potography or more towards a make over session although it still falls under potraiture. DO you agree?

    Its more on how you communicate with the models (which you have time to interact ..and so on...)....but talking about modeling shots..hmmm..doesnt you just point and shoot...as long as the overall shot looks alrite...some prefer to have lots of breathing space while some like to crop in tight to the models....dont think you will have the chance to talk to the models unless you are planning to buy a car from them or something like that?

    As for composition wise...hmmm...I think composition to me is on the placement of objects to make the overall poto look nice....as for potriature, I would consider lighting more important..(considering Lighting to be an individual topic..and not under composition...)...just my clearification...

  8. #48

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    Actually, i rarely take pictures of pple, mostly insects and pets and travel landscape. I agree with u that if not for the fact that that are pretty ladies paid to pose, i probably would not have went as I'm not much of a car fanatic (i only like funky looking small cars). However, this is one of the few ways for antisocials like me to get a practical hands on on some of the techniques i read about. I would argue that it is not impossible to get good protraitures there as i really like some of the work posted here (wolfgang's especially). But enough is said on this topic already. I dun think I'll ever be posting any more protraitures until i can learn to take some that do the models justice.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Re: Re: Interrupt

    Hi Wolfgang, definetly I am not offended...the website the link leads to is some how talking more towards studio potography or more towards a make over session although it still falls under potraiture. Do you agree?
    Not really. if you re-read the article again, the author of that article stated very clearly he prefers the use of ~natural light~ which and alot of the shots he does are out of doors. And it's not about make-overs either. It's taken with little or no make up with emphasis on capturing the personality and not just the pretty face...

    Its more on how you communicate with the models (which you have time to interact ..and so on...)....but talking about modeling shots..hmmm..doesnt you just point and shoot...as long as the overall shot looks alrite...some prefer to have lots of breathing space while some like to crop in tight to the models....dont think you will have the chance to talk to the models unless you are planning to buy a car from them or something like that?
    You don't just shoot and shoot and shoot. Or at least, thats not how i do my sessions. You need to talk, interact, getting them to loosen up, learn more about them. Getting to know your subject as a person. I'll gladly spend half of a 3-4 hr session just talking if it helps.

    As for not getting to talk to the models unless you buy a car. Once more, i have no idea where you got this mis-conception from. That is ~not~ true.

    As for composition wise...hmmm...I think composition to me is on the placement of objects to make the overall poto look nice....as for potriature, I would consider lighting more important..(considering Lighting to be an individual topic..and not under composition...)...just my clearification...
    Of course, lighting is integral but sadly, no matter how good the lighting, if your subject is uncomfortable infront of the camera and is not at ease, the pose will not come out natural, and neither will the final picture bring out the character of a person.

    I guess you have your stand and views on this issue and i have mine.

    Lets just leave it at that.

    If you so wish, post a shot where your believe lighting is the be all and end all for a portraiture shot and we can further discuss the merits of your points.
    --
    "High Wired, Dream Sired"

  10. #50

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    Originally posted by Red Dawn

    I guess it's quite hard to take a good picture when your head (the one between your shoulders) is not thinking straight......


    Oh btw, German made cars, (like cameras) are better, IMHO. YMMV
    That depends on which head they r using.

    Aston Martin, Corvettes, Pontiac, They r the best. Wondering why such great cars are not found in the show. (If i remmembered i dun see any such cars in there) And BTW i have barely taken more then 10 shots in that car show. Most of it is cars .<BTW my favorite car was not there. The DB7/Prosche 959> If a DB7 is there i believe i can take a whole roll on it. As i dun find the models/racequeens much of the attention,cos the event is on MOTORSHOW 2002. <n' its not RACEQUEEN 2002>. Thats why I am more focused.

    OH yah,,, I still remmembered my best car show that i have went to. They have a DB7 but in a balloon. It was long long time ago can't remmembered which year. Location was at Singapore World Trade Center and they even have car stunt show on display. Alot of classic cars and no models at all yet the best car show.
    Last edited by franciskc; 27th November 2002 at 12:38 PM.

  11. #51

    Default if you are respectful...

    Originally posted by xdivider


    Good for u, my pretty frens all camera shy or i too lousy, dun wanna model for me . I guess have to practice with my teddy bear at home if i want to improve my lighting and exposure skills.
    my opinion on the above:

    a)if you show that you intend to bring out the best look or impression of the person modelling for you (either through portfolios or on the spot with digital cameras)

    b)that you show basic knowledge of your equipment and environmental conditions when taking the photo (ie knowledge of exposure, composition and other technical aspects of photography)

    c)If you are considerate of your subject's moods and feelings throughout the shoot (and before after too)

    d)if you are willing to practice shooting with anybody (not just gals, but guys too, and kids)

    e)you treat each session and the resulting photos with respect for the model involved as if you were the one photographed

    then IMHO, you should not have a shortage of models for portraiture, and you will also get to improve your skills before attempting a shot that will hopefully be closer to professional quality.

    just my 2 cents.
    the above applies to candid shots too.

    regards,
    argent2

  12. #52

    Default Re: if you are respectful...

    Originally posted by argent2


    my opinion on the above:

    a)if you show that you intend to bring out the best look or impression of the person modelling for you (either through portfolios or on the spot with digital cameras)

    b)that you show basic knowledge of your equipment and environmental conditions when taking the photo (ie knowledge of exposure, composition and other technical aspects of photography)

    c)If you are considerate of your subject's moods and feelings throughout the shoot (and before after too)

    d)if you are willing to practice shooting with anybody (not just gals, but guys too, and kids)

    e)you treat each session and the resulting photos with respect for the model involved as if you were the one photographed

    then IMHO, you should not have a shortage of models for portraiture, and you will also get to improve your skills before attempting a shot that will hopefully be closer to professional quality.

    just my 2 cents.
    the above applies to candid shots too.

    regards,
    argent2
    Yep, agreed, although that also depends on my convincing skills which i really suck at Found kids to be the most natural human models i shot so far.

  13. #53
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    Default potraiture

    YoYO WOlfGang, guess I have miss out some points from the website you linked me to...

    but think you also have miss the topic of Composition also..

    Yes I agree lighting is important but of course others things like creating a repo with the models (which I think you have emphersised alot) and so on..(building repo is somehow a must or a thing which a potraiture potographer should know rite.. )

    I apologised for the "talking to models unless you want to buy a car" sentence.....hehehhe....cos for me, I dont anyhow talk to them for nothing....and also...dont tell me you want to build a repo with the models in the motor show first before shooting them? hehhehe....kind of funny if I am to imagine... (SHY)

    Dont get offended too cos you sound alittle in the replies..actually alot of preparation need to be done before/after potraiture shoot. That is provided when you are shooting a portfolio of a person...(including studio and outdoors...)

    but just to clarify that composition still does not play a BIG part when you ae doing shots like those in the motor show....and also Fashionshow shots.....

    and if there is composition in the above I am refering to, then why do you always see the standard pictures in Female/Fashion magazines. (If you know what I mean.)

    Guess we know what we are supose to do before and after a potraiture potography session....

    Anyway, nice talking to you....becoming somekind of personal forum between both of us liao..hahhaha
    CHeers
    *I think you dont really need to build repo with those Professional models...cos they are Professionals...hahhahhaa
    Last edited by MatthewSCL; 27th November 2002 at 08:11 PM.

  14. #54
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    Well, I have to said that when I decide to go to motor show with my camera, my aim is to learn how to take same good portraiture shots. Cos my friends are all very camera shy. And at the show, there are lots the models (which I hope they are) which can give me lots of chances to learn.
    But when I reach there, I ended up spending more time to take pictures of the cars then the model.
    Well, guess I just don't have to "cuts" to take portraiture.

    But I still have to say, it is a good place to learn how to take portrait if you can't manage to get any models. Cos they know how to pose in front of camera themself making it easy for beginner. Just remember to do it with the correct thoughts in mind.

  15. #55
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    Default Re: potraiture

    First of, i am not offended. I actually enjoying hearing what you have to say. So long this does not degenerate into some flame fest or personal attack, i am pretty much ok.

    YoYO WOlfGang, guess I have miss out some points from the website you linked me to...
    but think you also have miss the topic of Composition also..
    What about composition have i missed?

    Yes I agree lighting is important but of course others things like creating a repo with the models (which I think you have emphersised alot) and so on..(building repo is somehow a must or a thing which a potraiture potographer should know rite.. )
    Yes, you are right. Building a rapport with your subject is one of the main component but trust me, it isn't easy.

    I apologised for the "talking to models unless you want to buy a car" sentence.....hehehhe....cos for me, I dont anyhow talk to them for nothing....and also...dont tell me you want to build a repo with the models in the motor show first before shooting them? hehhehe....kind of funny if I am to imagine... (SHY)
    Well, i actually did. If you want to know, i made 5 trips there. And yes, building a rapport with them was also integral tp me. Taking shots of a pretty face is not essential. Getting to know the person is. I am not sure if you know what i mean but at the end of the day, after a portraiture shoot, learning something new about someone, or getting to know the person better is much more important. And since you know how difficult t is to even establish some form of trust, i reckon you would understand why i consider this part of portraiture shooting the most delicate and of utmost importance.

    actually alot of preparation need to be done before/after potraiture shoot. That is provided when you are shooting a portfolio of a person...(including studio and outdoors...)

    but just to clarify that composition still does not play a BIG part when you ae doing shots like those in the motor show....and also Fashionshow shots.....
    You don't think so?

    Well, tell you what, go browse around online for all the shots taken of the models at the car show so far. And then one day, if our paths do cross, i will be more than happy to shot you a couple of shots taken from my personal portfolio at the show. Maybe that would help you understand what i mean by composition.

    and if there is composition in the above I am refering to, then why do you always see the standard pictures in Female/Fashion magazines. (If you know what I mean.)
    There is a big difference between a glamour-shot/magazine shoot and a portraiture shoot.

    *I think you dont really need to build repo with those Professional models...cos they are Professionals...hahhahhaa
    Then i guess you have missed out a great opportunity to make some really nice people...
    --
    "High Wired, Dream Sired"

  16. #56

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    For this, I do agree with WolfGang.

    I think it's good to interact with the models you are shooting. Besides just to let her feel easy, that's some form of respect too. It ain't that nice to shoot and shoot and just walk off. On top of that, who knows, she might even give you some suggestions on her best pose.

    Anyway, this is really a very subjective issue, everyone has their own individual preference. If you simply just follow the books and neglected your own style, soon we won't be able to see much creative shots.

    A simple noob question. Should portrait shots be taken for pro models in a well equipped studio with all sort of lightings setups, only?


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    Originally posted by togu
    A simple noob question. Should portrait shots be taken for pro models in a well equipped studio with all sort of lightings setups, only?
    There are several types of portraiture:
    - Documentary, this is the one most people refering to, the focus is on the subject, the photographer need to understand him/her. Trying to tell "who she/he is" thru the picture. This type of portrait can be taken in studio or location.
    - Candid, a location portraiture, the focus is on the moment, not the subject anymore. Telling the expression or situation of the subject.
    - Art portraiture, can be taken anywhere. The focus is on the resulting images rather than the subject. This kind of portraiture is an expression of creativity from the photographer.

    So as you can see, portraiture is not just a simple "shoot the beauty", and this kind of photography is one among the most difficult to master. It is not the matter of equipments, but the skill of photographer. There're many good old portraits even before the SLR camera was invented.

  18. #58
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    Default Oppss

    Are you guys not talking about motor show model shots only?
    Wow...5 times? = 5*8 = 40bugs? Wow....I went on hmm...a Sat...but then dissapointed to see not many models out there...did take some potos of them (and actually if you ask me what are the cars there..hmmm...i dontreally know..hahhahha...oppss..)...cos I am there for the models?

    The potos I have taken are not very ..some how nicely taken (not up to my own standard)...more like a "shoot for the sake that I am there"....cos didnt put up for comments also....

    I have tried taking studio shots with my wife..but its very difficult (even if she is some one close...)...I 110% agree with Wolf....its very hard to build up a repo with your models...(especially she or he is new (first time doing these shots...)...

    a potographer also cannot give up due to this reason..else the whole session will be very awkward....(think again...if you are the model....whould u feel very "xian" when you see the potographer's "xian" face?)

    Thanks for the guidance..wolf..learn a few points from you
    at least wolf has slightly changed my previous concept of Clubsnap...hehehhe...

    These are some of the "Point and shot" photos taken at taka fashion show....not much composition is required at that point...but you will be able to see that "Lighting" actually plays a part.
    http://www.pbase.com/matthewscl/fashion_show_in_taka

    As for repo'ing...hmmm....I cant do that...

    Cheers everyone...you can also check out the duck race potos taken recently...enjoy

  19. #59
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    Default Re: Oppss

    Gentlemen. Rapport is one of the absolute most crucial ingredients in any portraiture shot. Arguably, you can get a good shot with no other ingredient present besides rapport. Whereas you would struggled to do that with any other given ingredient.

    Ultimately I would say both rapport and composition are important. I personally believe that, and while this may sound like a personal attack at MatthewSCL I assure you it is not, anyone who can suggest that rapport and composition are not important in a successful portrait has basically no idea how to take a successful portrait.

  20. #60
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    Originally posted by YSLee


    Bollocks, similar Japanese cars are just as well made, are cheaper, but just that they don't have the snob appeal. :P
    which is why i say, with cars, your mileage may vary. (pun fully intended)
    David Teo
    View my work and blog at http://www.5stonesphoto.com/blog

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