Best CRT monitor for editing

[Castlesinthesky]

I'm looking for a CRT monitor for image editing- am wondering which brand or model will be the best bang for the buck for say a budget of 500-600-probably 19 inch.

I've heard of sony trinitrons' reputation, how about philips? are they any good?

will appreciate it if anyone can do a few recommendations

Thanks

[photobum]

Originally Posted by Castlesinthesky I've heard of sony trinitrons' reputation. Thanks

Some of the best CRT monitors for photo editing are Sony Trinitrons and Mitsubishi/NEC Diamondtrons. You will not go wrong with either of these brands.

For the budget-conscious, Samsung monitors are good. However, I have doubts using Philips monitors for Photoshop work. Their color-fidelity is untruthful.

[Castlesinthesky]

Originally Posted by photobum Some of the best CRT monitors for photo editing are Sony Trinitrons and Mitsubishi/NEC Diamondtrons. You will not go wrong with either of these brands. For the budget-conscious, Samsung monitors are not bad. However, I have doubts using Philips monitors for Photoshop work. Their color-fideity is untruthful.

Thanks for the suggestions! But do they still sell sonys in SLS?i've looked through the price guide in HWZ and there doesn't seem to be any Sonys retailing in there.

i've worked with a samsung CRT before until it blew up on me- and i must say that the color gamut for it is pretty wide and was very close to an sRGB color space. My current philips LCD just can't cut it somehow.

but i'd like to try out a sony if it's affordable.

[photobum]

Originally Posted by Castlesinthesky .....But do they still sell sonys in SLS?

Don't mention it. By the way, some of the older Dell monitors are Sony Trinitrons They can still be found at SLS used. Look for them at Tech Deck (SLS 3rd floor).

[Ah Pao]

Originally Posted by photobum Don't mention it. By the way, some of the older Dell monitors are Sony Trinitrons They can still be found at SLS used. Look for them at Tech Deck (SLS 3rd floor).

Just be aware CRT monitors darken over use, so choose your used monitors wisely.

[Splutter]

Hey man, quite hard to get good CRTs these days. Maybe can try looking for 2nd hand ones.

[ricohflex]

Use a LCD.
Much more practical. Space saving. Escape CRT radiation>>>> cancer

[Gamut Labs]

In the Digital Imaging world, the myth of "CRTs are better than LCDs" is exactly like the car industry during the "Carburetor vs Fuel Injection Engines" and audio industry's "Tube vs Transitor Amps"

Granted that a brand new 21" (actual usable = 19") Trinitron [SONY]/Diamondtron[MITSUBISHI] (aperture grill) or ChromaClear [NEC] (Slotted Mask) may be a nice cool addition to the digital darkroom.

The truth is a mid-range Graphic series LCD often beats a mid-range CRT at performance/price index.

If you really want, got for nothing but the best, the SONY Artisan 21"
http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTE...ctSKU=GDMC520K

Otherwise, do consider a 20" widescreen LCD or better still the Apple imac 20" (PowerPC G5 or Intel Core Duo) is a great buy for a spanking new computer with a great 20" display.

Do yourself a favour and invest in a proper display/graphic card/screen calibration device combination and you may start to realise that what you have been missing all this while is not a $3000 lens, but a display combination made for Digital Imaging.

And stay away from the SLS used monitors. Nobody buys used lightbulbs and monitors are basically just that.

Cheers,
nic

[Castlesinthesky]

Originally Posted by Gamut Labs In the Digital Imaging world, the myth of "CRTs are better than LCDs" is exactly like the car industry during the "Carburetor vs Fuel Injection Engines" and audio industry's "Tube vs Transitor Amps" Granted that a brand new 21" (actual usable = 19") Trinitron [SONY]/Diamondtron[MITSUBISHI] (aperture grill) or ChromaClear [NEC] (Slotted Mask) may be a nice cool addition to the digital darkroom. The truth is a mid-range Graphic series LCD often beats a mid-range CRT at performance/price index. If you really want, got for nothing but the best, the SONY Artisan 21" http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTE...ctSKU=GDMC520K Otherwise, do consider a 20" widescreen LCD or better still the Apple imac 20" (PowerPC G5 or Intel Core Duo) is a great buy for a spanking new computer with a great 20" display. Do yourself a favour and invest in a proper display/graphic card/screen calibration device combination and you may start to realise that what you have been missing all this while is not a $3000 lens, but a display combination made for Digital Imaging. And stay away from the SLS used monitors. Nobody buys used lightbulbs and monitors are basically just that. Cheers, nic

Hey nic! Very nice to have the color expert in here to answer my queries. I WAS looking at an ACD 20'' but i was a little paranoid on the gamut of the monitor itself, given the experience that i'm having with this crappy philips LCD monitor i'm using right now. I've recalibrated it using the eye one display 2 repeatedly and somehow it still gives me a substantially smaller gamut that is yes,even smaller than the default sRGB color space. I was looking at back at my previous profiles created with my samsung CRT monitor before it blew up on me and man, the color gamut almost covered that of the sRGB color space.

Here's an example to illustrate what i mean, my previous profile from the samsung CRT is in the center, whilst the current profile i'm using is on the right The sRGB space, which is on the left, is the one that windows is looking at.As you can see the gamut of the philips monitor is substantially smaller than the sRGB space and it is causing me some problems when i view pictures on the internet or in windows picture viewer.



I've been having a lot of my problems with my pictures viewed in non icc aware applications-basically the internet. Even when i DO embed a sRGB profile-which is the default color space of internet browsers- in my pictures, the colors turn out much less desaturated than what i've edited in photoshop in sRGB profile too of course. I figured that the only way to solve this was to get a new monitor and hence my question on this. Besides getting a new monitor, is there any other way to solve this?

[Gamut Labs]

Ah, please don't call me expert! I'm far from that, I'm just a frustrated user like yourself trying to make some sense in the Digital world. If spending ALOT of money and time makes me an expert than I think alot of the folks here are Grandmasters!

coming back to your problems, first of all we must understand that Gamut size isn't everything, color accuracy isn't about the gamut size, it's about the GRAYS being neutral.

even if the profile is smaller after calibration/profiling, it could be due to your overall brightness range + contrast ratio (usually the case)

what you will lose eventually on a low end LCD is the highlights and shadow details.

worse case being the colorimeter device + software bundle isn't good enough to bring the best out of the poor Philips LCD.

When I was using the Eye-One on my 3 yr old 19" Apple LCD, I thought it was time to retire the fella. Then I had a chance to try out the X-Rite, oh my god, it brought back an additional 10-15% gamut range!

So there you go, don't worry so much about the range, focus on the accuracy and yes there are low end color devices as well so all is not lost!

The IT show in March is coming up... i recommend the Viewsonics widescreens
For the mid range - http://www.viewsonic.com.sg/products...ecs.php?id=246
For the deep pockets - http://www.viewsonic.com.sg/products...ecs.php?id=213


Cheers,
nic

[Castlesinthesky]

Originally Posted by Gamut Labs Ah, please don't call me expert! I'm far from that, I'm just a frustrated user like yourself trying to make some sense in the Digital world. If spending ALOT of money and time makes me an expert than I think alot of the folks here are Grandmasters! coming back to your problems, first of all we must understand that Gamut size isn't everything, color accuracy isn't about the gamut size, it's about the GRAYS being neutral. even if the profile is smaller after calibration/profiling, it could be due to your overall brightness range + contrast ratio (usually the case) what you will lose eventually on a low end LCD is the highlights and shadow details. worse case being the colorimeter device + software bundle isn't good enough to bring the best out of the poor Philips LCD. When I was using the Eye-One on my 3 yr old 19" Apple LCD, I thought it was time to retire the fella. Then I had a chance to try out the X-Rite, oh my god, it brought back an additional 10-15% gamut range! So there you go, don't worry so much about the range, focus on the accuracy and yes there are low end color devices as well so all is not lost! The IT show in March is coming up... i recommend the Viewsonics widescreens For the mid range - http://www.viewsonic.com.sg/products...ecs.php?id=246 For the deep pockets - http://www.viewsonic.com.sg/products...ecs.php?id=213 Cheers, nic

Nah, nic, you give good soild advice and i;m sure everyone around appreciates it. I do, that's for sure!

Maybe i'll look at the x-rite promotion that you have to offer, somehow it's really frustrating the hell out of me. I really thought the i1 would solve my problems. I don't quite understand why my pictures appear so desaturated or even take on different color shifts despite my working entirely in sRGB- i mean photoshop and ACDsee pro see the pictures just fine. But when it comes to windows picture viewer and the internet, there you go-all hay wire.

i was thinking that the colors from the sRGB profile can't even fit into the gamut of the current monitor profile and thus rendered color shifts. I see your point about the grays being neutral...but what i quite cannot understand is how come there is such a big difference in color rendition when i view it in photoshop/ACDsee against that of the internet. Here's another illustration of what i've seen from this thread

http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=181343

Do note that the picture at the time of viewing is embedded in sRGB. On the right is what i see in photoshop and ACDsee pro. On the left however is what i see on the internet. As you can see there are substantial color shifts. I still can't fathom why is this so...my old CRT never gave me such problems oddly.




Let me know berryhappy, if you want this to be taken off, just demonstrating the colors i see on my monitor.

[Gamut Labs]

Originally Posted by Castlesinthesky Nah, nic, you give good soild advice and i;m sure everyone around appreciates it. I do, that's for sure! Maybe i'll look at the x-rite promotion that you have to offer, somehow it's really frustrating the hell out of me. I really thought the i1 would solve my problems. I don't quite understand why my pictures appear so desaturated or even take on different color shifts despite my working entirely in sRGB- i mean photoshop and ACDsee pro see the pictures just fine. But when it comes to windows picture viewer and the internet, there you go-all hay wire. i was thinking that the colors from the sRGB profile can't even fit into the gamut of the current monitor profile and thus rendered color shifts. I see your point about the grays being neutral...but what i quite cannot understand is how come there is such a big difference in color rendition when i view it in photoshop/ACDsee against that of the internet. Here's another illustration of what i've seen from this thread http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=181343 Do note that the picture at the time of viewing is embedded in sRGB. On the right is what i see in photoshop and ACDsee pro. On the left however is what i see on the internet. As you can see there are substantial color shifts. I still can't fathom why is this so...my old CRT never gave me such problems oddly. Let me know berryhappy, if you want this to be taken off, just demonstrating the colors i see on my monitor.

Ah, windows picture viewer and IE doesn't have a "translator" to translate the profiles! on the mac equivalent, PREVIEW and SAFARI has built-in color engines (actually from OSX colorsync engine) so what you are seeing are RAW color information.

On the CRTs, the gamut range being bigger, there are less out-of-gamut 'clipping'.

I'm sure that there's a diff, just not as stark.

There's a reason why ppl mac. but fret not, vista is gonna be colormanaged at OS level.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0509/05...canoncolor.asp

hopefully, it really works...

Cheers,
nic

[Castlesinthesky]

Originally Posted by Gamut Labs Ah, windows picture viewer and IE doesn't have a "translator" to translate the profiles! on the mac equivalent, PREVIEW and SAFARI has built-in color engines (actually from OSX colorsync engine) so what you are seeing are RAW color information. On the CRTs, the gamut range being bigger, there are less out-of-gamut 'clipping'. I'm sure that there's a diff, just not as stark. There's a reason why ppl mac. but fret not, vista is gonna be colormanaged at OS level. http://www.dpreview.com/news/0509/05...canoncolor.asp hopefully, it really works... Cheers, nic

hey nic, exactly! which is why i'm really considering a a new monitor because of the gamut range. this major color shift is really killing me. i mean when i view it on the Mac. it's totally fine in safari and preview and even the desktop due to colorsync, because it can read the sRGB profile. But precisely because of the Philips monitor LCD range, i;m seeing a lot of color shifts and my fear is that other people on windows os may not see what i originally edited if you understand what i mean. And we all thought windows read sRGB profiles at a default.

so i don't really have much of a choice at the moment until vista comes out? And that the only solution is to look at a new monitor or re calibrate with another device to bring out a wider range for the monitor?

[Gamut Labs]

Originally Posted by Castlesinthesky hey nic, exactly! which is why i'm really considering a a new monitor because of the gamut range. this major color shift is really killing me. i mean when i view it on the Mac. it's totally fine in safari and preview and even the desktop due to colorsync, because it can read the sRGB profile. But precisely because of the Philips monitor LCD range, i;m seeing a lot of color shifts and my fear is that other people on windows os may not see what i originally edited if you understand what i mean. And we all thought windows read sRGB profiles at a default. so i don't really have much of a choice at the moment until vista comes out? And that the only solution is to look at a new monitor or re calibrate with another device to bring out a wider range for the monitor?

Hmm, if you are truly worried about your viewers online, you should be using the smallest possible gamut so that majority of the people will have less problems and not the other way around. That's precisely how sRGB came about in 1996. It's based on an average of a fixed number of the most common CRTs (ah-ha!) behave with MOST users, not designed for content creators working in the media industries.

So best advice, just get a 15/17" mid-range flat screen CRT and don't calibrate it. (to web proof, simulate the monitors of the rest of the 98% of web viewers) together with your philips, you are good to go.

DO, however WORK off a decent CALIBRATED display, PROOF off the UNCALIBRATED average.


Cheers,
nic

[Castlesinthesky]

Originally Posted by Gamut Labs Hmm, if you are truly worried about your viewers online, you should be using the smallest possible gamut so that majority of the people will have less problems and not the other way around. That's precisely how sRGB came about in 1996. It's based on an average of a fixed number of the most common CRTs (ah-ha!) behave with MOST users, not designed for content creators working in the media industries. So best advice, just get a 15/17" mid-range flat screen CRT and don't calibrate it. (to web proof, simulate the monitors of the rest of the 98% of web viewers) together with your philips, you are good to go. DO, however WORK off a decent CALIBRATED display, PROOF off the UNCALIBRATED average. Cheers, nic

my understanding was that you had to have the monitor match closely to the gamut of color space one was working in, which is why you had the super uber expensive eizo CG display which nearly covered that of the Adobe Color space, in order to get a close match between sRGB and your monitor space. Which i guess could have explained as to why i was seeing such a close match when i swopped profiles between sRGB and the old Samsung CRT. Isn't it a little contradictory for windows to read sRGB profiles at a bare minimum and yet not be able to fully translate what we saw in photoshop to it? It did seem to me that windows was using the monitor profile to view the colors which explains the shifts.

I probably will work off my mac for the time being and color proof it via firefox first. Will take your advice on getting the uncalibrated CRT monitor. I'll probably look at a samsung syncmaster flat screen again. had been shopping around

[hazmee]

Sorry to crash into your thread but has anyone heard of and used Lacie LCD monitors? Link here -> http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?pid=10503

I am thinking of changing my super old philips 21". The sony trinitrons are rather hard to find and most the shops at sim lim know nuts about it.

[Gamut Labs]

Originally Posted by hazmee Sorry to crash into your thread but has anyone heard of and used Lacie LCD monitors? Link here -> http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?pid=10503 I am thinking of changing my super old philips 21". The sony trinitrons are rather hard to find and most the shops at sim lim know nuts about it.

ah hazmee,

we are getting serious here! i think you are looking at SWOP certified LCDs now.

Check out this link for you serious folks!

http://americanprinter.com/mag/lcd_vs_crt_0305_2/

[hazmee]

Thanks for the link mate! Very good read. Cheers!

[Gamut Labs]

Originally Posted by Castlesinthesky my understanding was that you had to have the monitor match closely to the gamut of color space one was working in, which is why you had the super uber expensive eizo CG display which nearly covered that of the Adobe Color space, in order to get a close match between sRGB and your monitor space. Which i guess could have explained as to why i was seeing such a close match when i swopped profiles between sRGB and the old Samsung CRT. Isn't it a little contradictory for windows to read sRGB profiles at a bare minimum and yet not be able to fully translate what we saw in photoshop to it? It did seem to me that windows was using the monitor profile to view the colors which explains the shifts. I probably will work off my mac for the time being and color proof it via firefox first. Will take your advice on getting the uncalibrated CRT monitor. I'll probably look at a samsung syncmaster flat screen again. had been shopping around

yes, in the early days, web designers had the exact color problems working on the mac. subsequently they all shifted to PCs or eventually proof on dual systems before uploading.

cheers,
nic

[josho]

Interesting.. I have somehow face the same prob as you Castle. Everytime I edit something, turn out the photo is way wrong. My CRT is philips and its still new. I was wondering how? Shall I get a calibrator or change my graphic card or... change my monitor?

Look like Gamut Labs point out that Viewsonic LCD do impress me *especially the wide screen* but aint sure the price tho.