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Thread: Panasonic & Leica into 4:3

  1. #1

    Default Panasonic & Leica into 4:3

    juz saw at dpreview, their update from PMA, there's this pc of news about Panasonic & Leica releasing 4:3 products. the future of 4:3 is looking very promising...!!

    Leica news
    http://www.dpreview.com/news/0602/06...ica14-50mm.asp

    JV news from Pana & Oly
    http://www.dpreview.com/news/0602/06...ympuspanas.asp

    pana "DSLR"
    http://www.dpreview.com/news/0602/06...sonicdmcl1.asp

    and not forgetting some old news from sigma:
    http://www.dpreview.com/news/0602/06...sigma43rds.asp


    so anyone interested in the 150mm macro from Sigma?


    last but not least...

    BUY LAH!!

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    Default Re: Panasonic & Leica into 4:3

    The 30/f1.4 looks more interesting! Hopefully, they'll release the 24/f1.4 as well soon....

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    Default Re: Panasonic & Leica into 4:3

    Not to rain on your parade but there's already 3 other threads floating around with the same news.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terence
    Not to rain on your parade but there's already 3 other threads floating around with the same news.

    sorry if it sounded stale. i thot its worth mentioning again since its "officially" made public again in PMA. like a double assurance perhaps?

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    Default Re: Panasonic & Leica into 4:3

    Quote Originally Posted by nightpiper
    sorry if it sounded stale. i thot its worth mentioning again since its "officially" made public again in PMA. like a double assurance perhaps?
    Thanks for assuring us doubly that everything we have read is nothing but a prototype.

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    Default Re: Panasonic & Leica into 4:3

    Quote Originally Posted by Hacker
    Thanks for assuring us doubly that everything we have read is nothing but a prototype.
    soon.... at least prototype is MADE... just need some more fine tuning... Just have to wait a "little while" longer...

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    Default Re: Panasonic & Leica into 4:3

    Quote Originally Posted by shchow
    soon.... at least prototype is MADE... just need some more fine tuning... Just have to wait a "little while" longer...
    The Oly 14-35 will come out in June 2007! How to wait? May have to go to the dark side....

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    Default Re: Panasonic & Leica into 4:3

    Quote Originally Posted by Hacker
    The Oly 14-35 will come out in June 2007! How to wait? May have to go to the dark side....
    you mean D200? Got banding problem leh...

  9. #9

    Default Re: Panasonic & Leica into 4:3

    For the E-3 ,I think Oly will need to wait to test out their new chip (what is the technical name for it?) that supports live preview as well as a much higher megapixel size. I think everyone expects the E-3 to be a major upgrade.

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    Default Re: Panasonic & Leica into 4:3

    Quote Originally Posted by serene
    For the E-3 ,I think Oly will need to wait to test out their new chip (what is the technical name for it?) that supports live preview as well as a much higher megapixel size. I think everyone expects the E-3 to be a major upgrade.
    Hmmm... E-3 Higher megapixel.... Live Preview... O.I.S.... Parallel Data transfer rate... Full Metal Body.... Weather Sealed Body.... ++ F2 to F2.8 Lenses....

  11. #11

    Default Re: Panasonic & Leica into 4:3

    When I discuss E-330 with friends, 9 out of 10 thought it's both EVF, like the R-1.

    The E-330 and L-1 have both optical and LCD live preview. They function just like an ordinary DSLR with mirror, if you choose to ignore or switch off the Live View.

    Liveview is added for convenience and creative purposes.

    While I would have to agree that E-1, from technical spec is probably outdated, but it's also true that different people has different needs.

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    Default Re: Panasonic & Leica into 4:3

    Quote Originally Posted by shchow
    you mean D200? Got banding problem leh...
    The light side.....but not sure how to deal with the dust issues.
    Last edited by Hacker; 28th February 2006 at 06:41 AM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Panasonic & Leica into 4:3

    Quote Originally Posted by newbiegrapher
    Leica or not Lecia Lens, shoot me some iso 800, 1600 shots and show me?

    Today's Panasonic is still light years behind Canon.

    Canon's iso3200 is probably better than panasonic + leica's iso 400.

    As for Oly.....i think they are running out of technical edge.

    Probably refurnished adn do some FACE LIFT to continue their selling

    Show me something useable at iso1600?

    Even Nikon D200 & D2X IS BARELY there.

    SO if u want DSLR - it's N or C brand.....simple as that.
    how about this? 100% crop.



    ISO800, just ran it through neatimage. Look at the details in the clock logo. This is 100% crop and to me it is definately useable. You just need a NR software.

    The point about oly DSLR like E1 is that it doesn't do any noise reduction while Canon does it in camera. Lets put it this way. I had an E1 together at the same time with the s3pro and I ran iso800 test shots for both. They were pretty close. s3pro is supposedly really low noise. (people say it is better than D200 for noise)

    Lets put is this way, s3pro has very low noise out of camera jpeg. Somehow their in camera noise reduction is BETTER than neatimage which is quite amazing. I get more details with out of camera ISO800 jpegs than what I could do if I use ACR to develop, neatimage to clean up. Olympus E1 don't really do much noise reduction for their jpeg so people think it is very noisy which is not.

    HAVING said all these, olympus is a noiser than canon I think, but by only 1-2 stops, ie their ISO800 is comparable to canon ISO1600-3200.

    There are other more impt points than ISO. big example is focusing accuracy. When shooting low light, I find that focusing accuracy is so much more impt than ISO performance. Example when I was shooting the clock test shots on a tripod, my s3pro misfocused once but the E1 was right on. The photozone.de owner who has tested many canon and olympus lens said that olympus body has more accurate autofocus than the 350D. And that focusing affects his lens sharpness test by a lot.
    Last edited by wind30; 28th February 2006 at 07:52 AM.

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    Default Re: Panasonic & Leica into 4:3

    Digital noise is something we have to learn to accept just like those ISO 400 slide film, is so grainy compare to this digital noise at ISO 800, I rather choose the digital at ISO 800 having a stop faster and so much less grains. I have a Oly C5060 and sometimes still shoot at ISO 400 in good lighting and as long as I develop it at 4 x 6, I find that it's still looks good. So it is what we need to make an equipment to work for us and not the other way round.
    Last edited by Moonstone; 28th February 2006 at 09:47 AM.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by chainsmoker
    The livemos ccd technology made by panasonic will never have the wow factor, low cost probably. Live Preview is itself just a convenience and limited by its own rigidlity, how anyone gonna shoot a vertical frame at waist level. With a EVF, if quality and details dont matter, one might be happier with a videocam. Though with it (EVF), one might be able to tell if the sky is overexposed or shadows lurking around, if onli the EVF can give you accurate results in the very first place( not sure if this function is available on e330). And now we hear, its been repackaged into lumix & leica vario.

    very obviously u have not touched an E330 at all before making such judgement. the EVF (in this case is the 2" color display, 'A' mode uses the small 5MP sensor & the 'B' mode uses the huge 7.5MP sensor for display) is very big & very clear, unlike ur usual P&S. if u dun like EVF, switch it off & the optical VF is still like ur normal common VF. where's the limiting factor? or u prefer the traditional way with juz the optical VF option only?



    Quote Originally Posted by newbiegrapher
    Leica or not Lecia Lens, shoot me some iso 800, 1600 shots and show me?

    Today's Panasonic is still light years behind Canon.
    Canon's iso3200 is probably better than panasonic + leica's iso 400.
    As for Oly.....i think they are running out of technical edge.
    Probably refurnished adn do some FACE LIFT to continue their selling
    Show me something useable at iso1600?
    Even Nikon D200 & D2X IS BARELY there.
    SO if u want DSLR - it's N or C brand.....simple as that.
    can tell us all which brand doesn't do "face lift" to continue selling? as far as i see, N has their D70->D70s D2h->D2Hs. C has their 10D->20D->30D 1DII->1DIIn. Pentax ist*Ds->Ds2. Oly, probably u r looking at E300->E500.


    bottom line is.... dun be like Ken Rockwell, juz judge or buy a camera based on tech specs alone. choose something that really suits ur photography needs & harness the advantage that particular sys gives. eg, if u r landscape "specialist", u might opt for S3pro for its DR factor & not the AF speed, 8fps, etc specs. u get what i mean? afteralll, N or C is juz like any other co. thats here to make ur money. if no one buys from them, they will also belly up juz like any other co., so i dun see why the mentality of: "DSLR - it's N or C brand.....simple as that". ur 'FOV' is really narrow in this sense.
    Last edited by nightpiper; 28th February 2006 at 12:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Panasonic & Leica into 4:3

    Quote Originally Posted by nightpiper
    very obviously u have not touched an E330 at all before making such judgement. the EVF (in this case is the 2" color display, 'A' mode uses the small 5MP sensor & the 'B' mode uses the huge 7.5MP sensor for display) is very big & very clear, unlike ur usual P&S. if u dun like EVF, switch it off & the optical VF is still like ur normal common VF. where's the limiting factor? or u prefer the traditional way with juz the optical VF option only?





    can tell us all which brand doesn't do "face lift" to continue selling? as far as i see, N has their D70->D70s D2h->D2Hs. C has their 10D->20D->30D. Pentax ist*Ds->Ds2. Oly, probably u r looking at E300->E500.


    bottom line is.... dun be like Ken Rockwell, juz judge or buy a camera based on tech specs alone. choose something that really suits ur photography needs & harness the advantage that particular sys gives. eg, if u r landscape "specialist", u might opt for S3pro for its DR factor & not the AF speed, 8fps, etc specs. u get what i mean? afteralll, N or C is juz like any other co. thats here to make ur money. if no one buys from them, they will also belly up juz like any other co., so i dun see why the mentality of: "DSLR - it's N or C brand.....simple as that". ur 'FOV' is really narrow in this sense.

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    Default Re: Panasonic & Leica into 4:3

    Hi There,

    John Isaac had a personal take on the shape of digital photography to come, if I may just leak a portion of his interview with Club Mytikas, he predicts the evolution of digital still photography will comprise the underlying technology that Olympus & Panasonic is transitioning to by way of their LiveMOS technology.

    I'm not at all good at electronic stuff, but LiveMOS vs CMOS, don't you find these two to be in the same 'low cost' sensor technology vis a vis CCD ; but can you name those camera manufacturers that base their technology on these "lowly" "cheap" technologies (by adding extra circuitry of their own to address some shortcomings in them.

    There is a wow factor in LiveMOS, the very important photodiode fill factor so repeatedly emphasized in the E1/E300/E500 full frame transfer CCD, is a key attribute in obtaining high quality raw image. The extra benefits brought by the LiveView capabilities shouldn't be seen as a gadgety move, like Nightpiper, I have tried & found it very useful after the same initial apprehension on its practicality.

    Is noise the sole determinant of image quality ? Shouldn't dynamic range, digital specific lens design, image processing engine be considered as a package. With this preoccupation about the lack of noise at high ISO, do shooters routinely shoot at 1600 or higher ISO with no consideration to other image qualities ?

    Cheers

  18. #18

    Default Re: Panasonic & Leica into 4:3

    Quote Originally Posted by chancy
    Is noise the sole determinant of image quality ? Shouldn't dynamic range, digital specific lens design, image processing engine be considered as a package. With this preoccupation about the lack of noise at high ISO, do shooters routinely shoot at 1600 or higher ISO with no consideration to other image qualities ?

    Cheers
    I think a lot of the DSLR shooters both here and overseas are spoilt rotten by the silky smooth images coming out of the Canon, Fuji, and Nikon DSLRs so much so that they equate image quality with low noise and camera quality with ability to shoot with low noise at high ISO.

    I must admit that I have been similarly 'trained' by Canon myself. When I started using cameras that are infamous for the lack of low noise capability like the Panasonic LC1 and of course the Olympus E-300, I was a bit perplexed as to why many of the images shot with these cameras though they had a bit of noise in them, had looked esthetically very attractive to me, even if I did not apply any noise reduction during post-processing.

    Recently, I had set the ISO on the E-300 to Auto to get better flash exposure control and was 'horrified' to find that none of the shots were at ISO 100 when I checked the EXIF info later on, with many being shot at ISO 400 ! The images however did not look any less attractive nor were they as noisy as I had subconsciously expected them to be. Examples are my cat photos in this thread here:
    http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=180621

    So to cut a long story short, I now believe that noise is not 'the sole determinant of image quality'. On the contrary, the presence of some noise may actually improve the esthetic quality of an image. This might also explain why I have not touched my 20D for quite a while now... and my next camera would definitely be either the Panasonic DMC L1 or the Olympus E-1 replacement, whichever comes first.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Panasonic & Leica into 4:3

    Quote Originally Posted by tomcat
    I think a lot of the DSLR shooters both here and overseas are spoilt rotten by the silky smooth images coming out of the Canon, Fuji, and Nikon DSLRs so much so that they equate image quality with low noise and camera quality with ability to shoot with low noise at high ISO.

    I must admit that I have been similarly 'trained' by Canon myself. When I started using cameras that are infamous for the lack of low noise capability like the Panasonic LC1 and of course the Olympus E-300, I was a bit perplexed as to why many of the images shot with these cameras though they had a bit of noise in them, had looked esthetically very attractive to me, even if I did not apply any noise reduction during post-processing.

    Recently, I had set the ISO on the E-300 to Auto to get better flash exposure control and was 'horrified' to find that none of the shots were at ISO 100 when I checked the EXIF info later on, with many being shot at ISO 400 ! The images however did not look any less attractive nor were they as noisy as I had subconsciously expected them to be. Examples are my cat photos in this thread here:
    http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=180621

    So to cut a long story short, I now believe that noise is not 'the sole determinant of image quality'. On the contrary, the presence of some noise may actually improve the esthetic quality of an image. This might also explain why I have not touched my 20D for quite a while now... and my next camera would definitely be either the Panasonic DMC L1 or the Olympus E-1 replacement, whichever comes first.

    wah!! u so rich!! E1 replacement not cheap wor....

    anyway, i think the only silky smooth image i have seen r those from Canon. Fuji & Nikon r not as silky.

    lets get back to the topic shall we? i think off track a lot already.

    ok, i found something interesting in the Leica 14-50mm lens. why wud Leica want to put an aperture ring on the lens? from the pic, its an AF lens with OIS & there's no news of it whether its focus by wire or the old style. more details (pun intended) wud be most appreciated.

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    Default Re: Panasonic & Leica into 4:3

    I just hope you guys are not too far away with the "HIP"

    Oly E-1 is better focusing in "LOW" LIGHT?

    I've used the following cameras, D70, D70S, E-1, E-300, D2H, D200, 20D, 5D, 1Ds, 1D / 1Ds MKII

    Trust me, "NO", I mean "NO" camera out there perform better in low light accuracy against the 1D series from Canon.

    I've couple of friends who sold their full Oly setup 10K plus to go with the oher brand due to the need to shoot with available light. They went over to 4/3 and bounce back when E-1 was lauched and then 1Ds was an ARM and LEG in price.

    Coming to better color contrast & dynamic range? I think the FF is still better in getting better natural coloration out. - I don't have time for processing unless doing critical commerical projects.

    As for NR in Oly? I work in the company that invent CMOS sensor for the past 11years.

    NR or no NR, I think it's a matter of mild standard NR or enhanced NR - Playing with marketing terms. All system will have the standard NR being part of system, but with additional enhanced NR option to increase it. NO such thing as total NO NR.

    I think it's personally needs.

    Once again I suggest u pick up a D2X or 1D MkIIn if u a sport shooter or a 1Ds MkII if you play with available light type - and U TELL ME IF YOUR OLY OUTPERFORM THEM? I'm not too sure if you talking about best agianst the best - Maybe not a fair example?

    But if the L1 + leica 4/3 lens going to cost USD 2899? I'll buy a 5D anytime with that money

    I think Oly E-330 will have a price advantage against 20D or 30D, but the Lens is petty expensive thru. The E-330 will take away business from Canon and Nikon at their D70S, D50, 20D and 30D range. But we talking about Leica 4/3 system lens here and it mean $? Doesn;t make sense? Porsche 5L twin Turbo engine in a nissan march chasis?

    Let's wait till the actual product and we can testify the performance...one thing about Panasonic.........too much marketing hype...




    Quote Originally Posted by wind30
    how about this? 100% crop.



    ISO800, just ran it through neatimage. Look at the details in the clock logo. This is 100% crop and to me it is definately useable. You just need a NR software.

    The point about oly DSLR like E1 is that it doesn't do any noise reduction while Canon does it in camera. Lets put it this way. I had an E1 together at the same time with the s3pro and I ran iso800 test shots for both. They were pretty close. s3pro is supposedly really low noise. (people say it is better than D200 for noise)

    Lets put is this way, s3pro has very low noise out of camera jpeg. Somehow their in camera noise reduction is BETTER than neatimage which is quite amazing. I get more details with out of camera ISO800 jpegs than what I could do if I use ACR to develop, neatimage to clean up. Olympus E1 don't really do much noise reduction for their jpeg so people think it is very noisy which is not.

    HAVING said all these, olympus is a noiser than canon I think, but by only 1-2 stops, ie their ISO800 is comparable to canon ISO1600-3200.

    There are other more impt points than ISO. big example is focusing accuracy. When shooting low light, I find that focusing accuracy is so much more impt than ISO performance. Example when I was shooting the clock test shots on a tripod, my s3pro misfocused once but the E1 was right on. The photozone.de owner who has tested many canon and olympus lens said that olympus body has more accurate autofocus than the 350D. And that focusing affects his lens sharpness test by a lot.

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