Critique Corner going downhill?

[LittleWolf]

When the critique corner forum was started last year, there was an apparent general concensus on what the guidelines for posting should be, such as: one picture per user per week, serious questions, serious comments, etc.

Recently, there is a trend that people dump their entire photoalbums, sometimes in rapid succession, play games ("guess what watch is shown in the photo?"), or start super-shallow threads like "newbie photo, please comment". I haven't noticed any attempt of moderation; and instead of moving junk threads out of it, recently a moderator even moved trash from another forum to the critique corner. And honest requests for critique go more and more unanswered.

To me, it is simply too frustrating to sift through the junk to find a serious posting that I feel warrants a response, and if I do I might be too irritated to formulate my views nicely. Simply put, I don't think the current status of the critique corner is conducive to serious discussions of photos.

I would like to ask the moderators to play a more active role in keeping the forum focused. I'm convinced the present situation has developed partially because the absence of visible moderation is being interpreted as encouragement to float the guidelines.

I realize this may only be an isolated opinion, so I'm wondering how others feel. I'm also curious what the administrators think the role of the critique corner should be.

[Rui]

i kinda of second that. there's a tendency for people to dump a whole album and ask for critiques. it's okay to put the whole album in the forum but think at a more suitable place - one really for viewing

[kaywalk]

I'm not going to comment on what is junk and what isn't, and whether a thread on a newbie photo is shallow or not. However, I do agree with LittleWolf that a fair bit of the contents in the Critique Corner these days do not adhere to the guidelines, and seemingly moderation has been slack. For me, the "noise" has diminished the value of the Critique Corner, elevated my "low-value-post fatigue", and lowered my expectations of what kinds of critique I will get to read.

I do support a stronger effort in reinforcing the guidelines. CS has members who sincerely want to receive serious critique and those who sincerely want to give the same. This is valuable to all members. As the Critique Corner was created to facilitate serious critique, with guidelines put in place, I do hope it regains its focus.

[foxtwo]

Well, I put it that most TS are becoming increasingly kiasu and either
A. sincerely do not know which ones merit critique,
or B. just cannot be bothered to sift through,
so proceed to dump wholesale.

For A:
I suppose we can't really blame them for posting more than one, or for posting really meaningless shots. They just don't know, can't tell, yet to develop senses, etc.

We are allowed to go "simon cowell" on them (highlight of critique corner), but I for one have not bothered (prefer to close both eyes & will them away) and tend to give the benefit of doubt.

*On retrospect, they do deserve blasting when failure to maintain minimum standards. Eg: focusing, subject (very important as this decides if it is rubbish or not), exposure. That's what newbie corner is for right? Critique corner is NOT newbie corner.

For B:
There was a not-so-recent case where I offered a fair number of guidelines on which the TS could follow, but unfortunately there was no further action from him on sifting those pictures.

Now that i look back, there seems to be no trace of that thread, how queer! Shucks, I'd like to have my post back, I did spend effort on it.
---------------

I've mentioned it in my critiques that I have no problems with postings of more than one pic when required. Eg: a short 2-3 pic series to establish theme/direction especially for abstract images. Since it make no sense to critic solely on a single image, where many would not 'see' the big picture. Eg, "local yet foreign".

we first faced the problem of too few critics, then we grew more capable critics, lately it has began to get diluted as many csers are too free to dispense comments & misc OTs on shots which do not merit as much attention as it is currently receiving. Eg, the recent vague "skull in sky".

Perhaps it's time we serious critics exercise the license to trash. Maybe then TS think twice before posting any/everything they fancy. Mods could make a time to relocate some threads to newbie corner instead and spare some grief.


Ok, i have decided I will make an effort to be harsh and be destructive constructive for those that i deem warranted.

[Darren]

At the time of conception, it was thought that self-moderation at Critique Corner would be the easiest to manage, but as things have progressed, there may now be a need to appoint a full-time Moderator (or two) to manage Critique Corner.

We will look into the matter and hopefully come to a quick resolution.

[ortega]

in the case of multiple images i only critique the first one

[The_Cheat]

I think both Littlewolf and foxtwo (what a zoo!) have raised two different perspectives that have indeed, IMHO, plagued the critique session for the recent months.

As to Littlewolf's point, perhaps some moderation would indeed keep the critique session clean from some of the nonsense, like posting more than one unrelated (non-sequential) photographs in the thread, and could prevent people from turning threads into a OT-playground.

What foxtwo reflected however, can't be solved easily by the administrator. Since the initiation of the section, there were already arguments and inconsistent critiquing, where most just gave remark for the sake of giving some remarks. In face of that, I have previously suggested, indirectly to the admin, of employing certain guidelines to critique in the section, where reviewer should give a certain scoring to different aspects of the photo, be it composition, texture, colour and overall grade. While scorings are ultimately artificial, and shouldn't matter ultimately, by imposing the guidelines as such, critics have to think through each categories carefully, rather than just casually jump in to give some half past-six remarks.

[LittleWolf]

Originally Posted by Darren At the time of conception, it was thought that self-moderation at Critique Corner would be the easiest to manage, but as things have progressed, there may now be a need to appoint a full-time Moderator (or two) to manage Critique Corner.

I may be missing something, but when I go to the critique corner, the forum software lists 3 moderators already.

I didn't intend to call for someone to take the burden of full time moderation (although, if someone wants to do it, I wouldn't object). I think it would be quite helpful already if moderators showed _some_ presence by curbing the most glaring excesses. This would create some awareness of the rules.

[Deadpoet]

Littlewolf is correct. I have a very simple solution. If someone posted multiple pictures, just take it down, unless, with explanation within the post, stating why more than one is necessary ... such as part of a series, and if must make sense, but something like part of my trip to XXX should not cut it.

[denniskee]

Originally Posted by foxtwo Well, *On retrospect, they do deserve blasting when failure to maintain minimum standards. Eg: focusing, subject (very important as this decides if it is rubbish or not), exposure. That's what newbie corner is for right? Critique corner is NOT newbie corner.

ah, i didnt know critique corner is NOT a newbie corner.
so may i ask, at what point can one be considered that he/she has pass the newbie stage and be allow to post in the critique corner?

[student]

Originally Posted by denniskee ah, i didnt know critique corner is NOT a newbie corner. so may i ask, at what point can one be considered that he/she has pass the newbie stage and be allow to post in the critique corner?

I do not subscribe to the notion that the critique corner cannot be used by newbies. The requirements of newbies and more experienced ones may be different. But critiques can, and should be given to all who requested them.

Unfortunately I saw that those who advocated this critique corner, and promised to give a critique to all who posted here, have not lived up to their promise.

[denniskee]

Originally Posted by denniskee ah, i didnt know critique corner is NOT a newbie corner. so may i ask, at what point can one be considered that he/she has pass the newbie stage and be allow to post in the critique corner?

i think i should rephrase my sentence after reading it myself.

i didnt know critique corner is NOT for newbie to post and ask for critique or to give critique.
so may i ask, at what point can one be considered that he/she has pass the newbie stage and be allow to post in the critique corner?:

[student]

Originally Posted by denniskee i think i should rephrase my sentence after reading it myself. i didnt know critique corner is NOT for newbie to post and ask for critique or to give critique. so may i ask, at what point can one be considered that he/she has pass the newbie stage and be allow to post in the critique corner?:

As far as I am concerned, there is no such demarcation bewteen "newbies" and "oldies".

As far as I am concerned, anyone is entitled to ask for critiques.

[denniskee]

Originally Posted by student As far as I am concerned, there is no such demarcation bewteen "newbies" and "oldies". As far as I am concerned, anyone is entitled to ask for critiques.

thats what i thought the critique corner is, untill today.

[zcf]

I believe anyone can post ONE (or closely related) photo at Critique Corner, be it newby or pro.

The main problem is a lot of people don't seem to read or follow the rules, or even unaware of there are rules .

Is there a way to set certain forum (Critique Corner) to show the first time poster the rules, then they click yes then can post? Like the B&S?

[zaren]

Originally Posted by student I do not subscribe to the notion that the critique corner cannot be used by newbies. The requirements of newbies and more experienced ones may be different. But critiques can, and should be given to all who requested them. Unfortunately I saw that those who advocated this critique corner, and promised to give a critique to all who posted here, have not lived up to their promise.

actually the only person who promised that every post in the critique corner will receive at least one critique is me. I must admit that I have not been critiquing much in the critique corner of late, but i shall make every effort to make sure that no post is left un-critiqued.

[zaren]

Originally Posted by LittleWolf When the critique corner forum was started last year, there was an apparent general concensus on what the guidelines for posting should be, such as: one picture per user per week, serious questions, serious comments, etc. Recently, there is a trend that people dump their entire photoalbums, sometimes in rapid succession, play games ("guess what watch is shown in the photo?"), or start super-shallow threads like "newbie photo, please comment". I haven't noticed any attempt of moderation; and instead of moving junk threads out of it, recently a moderator even moved trash from another forum to the critique corner. And honest requests for critique go more and more unanswered. To me, it is simply too frustrating to sift through the junk to find a serious posting that I feel warrants a response, and if I do I might be too irritated to formulate my views nicely. Simply put, I don't think the current status of the critique corner is conducive to serious discussions of photos. I would like to ask the moderators to play a more active role in keeping the forum focused. I'm convinced the present situation has developed partially because the absence of visible moderation is being interpreted as encouragement to float the guidelines. I realize this may only be an isolated opinion, so I'm wondering how others feel. I'm also curious what the administrators think the role of the critique corner should be.

i think part of the the problem in CS is that there are some posts which don't seem to fit in with any specific sub-forum. for example, the "show me your best bokeh!" thread. which started off in portraits and poses, then got moved to critique corner (wrongly, i feel). i think it belongs to neither sub-forum, but perhaps a new "catch-all" sub-forum for such "miscellaneous" postings.

[LittleWolf]

Originally Posted by denniskee ah, i didnt know critique corner is NOT a newbie corner. so may i ask, at what point can one be considered that he/she has pass the newbie stage and be allow to post in the critique corner?

I think a distinction between "newbies" and "non-newbies" makes no sense in a critique forum. The forum is not to discuss photographers, but the pictures - ideally completely agnostic who took them.

What annoys me is postings like "this is my newbie pic, how do I take it better?". The "newbie" part doesn't change the picture for the better or the worse, and the "how to do it better" part would belong into a discussion about photographic techniques.

Similarly, I dislike threads where people repost multiple modified/edited versions of an image. When an image is put up for discussion, I think it should be a finished work created by the poster, not a "beta test" version. If the author goes through several revisions based on the feedback of the critics, s/he is not only likely to end up with a watered down version that reflects more the intentions of the critics than his own, s/he also devalues her own original work. The outcome of a critique session does not and should not necessarily be universal praise for a piece of work.

[foxtwo]

Originally Posted by denniskee ah, i didnt know critique corner is NOT a newbie corner. so may i ask, at what point can one be considered that he/she has pass the newbie stage and be allow to post in the critique corner?

i am not trying to make it a newbie vs oldie thing, perhaps my term of use is flawed. perhaps my thinking is flawed as well.

what is the point in posting a picture with eg. no focus, no message to bring across. the thread i have in mind is the "guess what watch this is?". Is there any creative input to be given? what excatly can one critique on?... Possible compositions? could be anything!

to me, critique corner serves the purpose for people who know that their pictures lack, or have achieved something and need input. People like stoned, and maybe a few others (sorry it's late and i dont have time), who continually try something new and return to ask for c&c. that's who CC would serve.

okay, let me just make it as anyone who can at least make a decent composition is qualified to post. A decent compo should bring some kind of message across; a blurry clock face luminated in the dark does not.

[kaywalk]

Originally Posted by foxtwo i am not trying to make it a newbie vs oldie thing, perhaps my term of use is flawed. perhaps my thinking is flawed as well. what is the point in posting a picture with eg. no focus, no message to bring across. the thread i have in mind is the "guess what watch this is?". Is there any creative input to be given? what excatly can one critique on?... Possible compositions? could be anything! to me, critique corner serves the purpose for people who know that their pictures lack, or have achieved something and need input. People like stoned, and maybe a few others (sorry it's late and i dont have time), who continually try something new and return to ask for c&c. that's who CC would serve. okay, let me just make it as anyone who can at least make a decent composition is qualified to post. A decent compo should bring some kind of message across; a blurry clock face luminated in the dark does not.

Composition as an area of critique can be quite involved, varied and interesting as well. What is bad composition to you could be something else to another person. Though I agree that people should put some thought into a photo before posting in Critique Corner, I would find "decent composition" a challenging criterion for the moderation of Critique Corner.

To me, it is the desire to receive critique on a photo that should count for a photo being posted in Critique Corner. Perhaps a thread starter can pose a few questions for everyone to know the areas in which he/she desires critique, including composition, or the thread starter can welcome critique in any area. That the thread starter's intention does not mock the spirit of the Critique Corner is enough for me. A critic is free to give positive, negative or no comments.

To me, that the photo is of a "blurry clock face", for example, is less of an issue than that soliciting critique does not seem to be the purpose of posting in Critique Corner.

Besides the intention of receiving critique, and the posted photo(s) should conform to the guidelines set out. If deemed appropriate, guidelines can be changed, the creation of separate subforums or other solutions can be explored.