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Thread: bad experience in buying 2ndhand

  1. #21
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    Originally posted by song
    Sorry,

    I don't quite agree with the fact that fellow clubsnapper should not be warned. If that person change name, then it is luck. But then , we need to at least do our best to protect the climate of clubsnap buy sell section; if not the section would lose its followers and then it would be ineffective.

    This is going to affect all of us here. Imagine if we have something to sell in clubsnap forum and then because of these blacksheeps, the forum loses its reputation, how are we to find buyers easily.
    If the buyers are more aware then the "blacksheep" sellers have lesser chance of taking advantage. Yes, CS members should be warned and adviced to do their homework, instead of warned against any individual. This is more effective than blacklisting, and it still protects the climate in CS Buy & Sell section.

    I believe the Buy & Sell section is provided as a convenience for members but CS is not responsible for the transactions.

    Originally posted by song
    Worst, this is a singapore based forum and imagine the harm done to our image as singaporeans.

    just my thought, i know some would not agree.

    song
    I feel you are stretching this a little too far. The concept of classifieds and autions are not new to the Internet, so is the advice to buyers doing their own research and making informed and careful decisions. Any foreign browser with common sense will know better than to base his judgement of Singaporeans on a few incidents of unhappy transactions that he happen to come across on CS.

    As far as this case here is concerned, I believe we have not heard from the selling party yet. So let's not make any judgement yet.

    I seldom make disclaimers in my posts, but in this case I feel I have to make it clear. I am a volunteer as a moderator for CS. My views in this thread so far has been my personal views, and not representative of the CS administration.
    As complexity rises, precise statements lose meaning and meaningful statements lose precision.

  2. #22

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    Originally posted by StreetShooter
    If a buyer of secondhand goods is unwilling to accept the risk of buying defective goods, he can still buy them from reputable secondhand shops like TCW, which provides a 3 month warranty against defects. You pay a little more for the peace of mind.

    Most of the time, when a deal is too good to be true, it usually is.
    agree.
    i've done a few transacts on ebay myself. I notice that they seems to hv a 'culture' there. there will be reputable sellers. wht we do is get reputable sellers to verify sale offers from not so reputable sellers.
    usually, it works, someone will know the seller and verify that its trustable source.
    on occasions when source cannot be verified by anyone i know. I will not transact.

    urge all buyers to exercise caution for online purchase. its not a good feeling to feel cheated.

  3. #23

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    currently, CS do not provide verification of sales for members. due to a multitude of reasons.

    but its still good to ask around the members in the forum for reputation of seller whenever possible.

    note that any 'blacklist' is not meant as a personal grudge against the seller.
    It simply let others know that this member hv transacted in bad faith in the past.

  4. #24
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    Originally posted by Shadus
    currently, CS do not provide verification of sales for members. due to a multitude of reasons.

    but its still good to ask around the members in the forum for reputation of seller whenever possible.

    note that any 'blacklist' is not meant as a personal grudge against the seller.
    It simply let others know that this member hv transacted in bad faith in the past.
    Okay, I can buy (no pun intended) that. But it would be better if this can be done privately, maybe using pm or emails instead of posting it in the forum for all the CS members to see.


  5. #25
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    Originally posted by Goondu
    There is always 2 sides to a coin and we should hear it out from the other party.

    Besides, blacelisted members can always join in under a new nick and it will defeat the purpose.

    I agree with roy on this issue, that the buyer must be aware of what he is getting. Likewise, the seller must be professional enough to indicate any issues relating to the quality of the product. If the seller really didn't know, I think it is up to both the seller and buyer to come up with a compromise solution.

    Just my 2 cents.

    I think this can the problem of changing nick can be overcomed by allow all of us to see the history posting of the person and look at the number of posting he has posted. If he change his nick, the number post posting will start from 0. be wary of such person then. Also, look at the history of his postings... For those who have made the transaction succesfully, buyer should give credit to the seller. That way, everyone can check the credibility of the person. That's how eBay do right? It's not a perfect solution though but this makes a person's reputation very important...

  6. #26
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    IMHO, CS is only providing space for advertisement Buy/Sell like in the newspaper classified section. So the buyer need to go extra mile to know what he/she is going to get to protect herself/himself. Enforcing system checking in community website like CS is impossible since CS need to protect it's database for its user privacy (CGI scripting), except CS is going for commercialization.
    Another think is "Greed" I had bad experience too buying considerable cheap lens from CS user, I claimed to him and he said sorry. I can accept his reason even I end up paying extra $$$ to fix the lens.
    General rule of thumb is the cheaper the things from market price, there is/are catch/es.
    It's free market......like the others said do the homework first to protect yourself.
    Last edited by Knighthunter; 19th November 2002 at 01:31 PM.
    W204FL

  7. #27
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    I have read this with some interest on this topic and here is my 1 cents worth...

    buyer: u have to determine if the seller really wasn't aware that when he bought it, he did not have it. That is difficult. I like to think it is no fault of yours, as u as a buyer will not know everything there is need to know in a purchase. In this instance, we are talking abt a bag, but what happens if it is a camera, where some functions don't work after some testing initially? U have parted with your money, so u will feel injustice...?

    Seller: did u intentionally sell it w/o the additional pouch? If yes, I think u have to bear responsibility for that. but if u had bought it w/o it and only later to sell it off w/o knowing, then u that is a diff story.

    Clubsnap: the Q is why do u allow pple to conduct buying and selling without real names, address and contacts being put out on the web? Only real names can be used, then pple will be more careful and hopefully more honest. I think CS need to be more active (in its role) if it wants to have a buy/ sell column. I mean, if u say that it is up to buyers and sellers and buyers beware, how do u protect innocent first time buyers of equipment to know what to look for when they buy gears? No body has full knowledge of what to look out for when they buy things u know. I am sure that is quite true even those who have certain knowledge of photography. Without some form of assistance, then what will stop dishonest pple from using this forum to sell their less than desirable stuff or things that they want to get rid off? Even if u have someone agreeing that person selling is trustworthy, i am still skeptical unless that person vouching for it is a moderator from CS. Having said that, I understand that it is diff to monitor and be an official in a buy and sell column. But I think maybe all cs members wld like to contribute on this to see how better this can be made.

    Like I say, this is just my 1 cents worth of opinion.

  8. #28

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    Originally posted by jeff chen
    Clubsnap: the Q is why do u allow pple to conduct buying and selling without real names, address and contacts being put out on the web? Only real names can be used, then pple will be more careful and hopefully more honest. I think CS need to be more active (in its role) if it wants to have a buy/ sell column. I mean, if u say that it is up to buyers and sellers and buyers beware, how do u protect innocent first time buyers of equipment to know what to look for when they buy gears? No body has full knowledge of what to look out for when they buy things u know. I am sure that is quite true even those who have certain knowledge of photography. Without some form of assistance, then what will stop dishonest pple from using this forum to sell their less than desirable stuff or things that they want to get rid off? Even if u have someone agreeing that person selling is trustworthy, i am still skeptical unless that person vouching for it is a moderator from CS. Having said that, I understand that it is diff to monitor and be an official in a buy and sell column. But I think maybe all cs members wld like to contribute on this to see how better this can be made.

    Like I say, this is just my 1 cents worth of opinion.
    Excuse my language, but I think this is really ridiculous. If you look at the classified ads in Straits Times, I don't see any NRIC or address listed there by the advertisers. All that is there is a contact number. CS is not a third party, unlike ebay or any escrow service, or even the stock exchange. There is absolutely no legal obligation to guarantee any transaction, which is solely between buyer and seller. I mean, if I buy shares and the price goes down, I can't look for the person who sold me the shares and insist that he buy them back at the same price, right?

    In the context of CS Buy and Sell, most of the time a buyer would personally meet the seller to inspect the goods and conduct the transaction. There would already be at least a contact number exchanged. Is it really asking too much of the buyer's common sense to record down the phone number or even request for the NRIC of the seller to note down the address listed there? If the seller refuses (which he has every right to do), you as a buyer have every right to back out of the transaction as well, if you suspect something is amiss. Should there be any allegations of fraud or misrepresentation later, there are always avenues of recourse such as the Small Claims Tribunal.

    Get this: CS Buy and Sell is a FREE and USEFUL service. First time buyers of equipment can and should do their own research by reading reviews and asking around, even looking for volunteers to help them inspect the goods if they want. I don't see any role at all for moderators.

  9. #29
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    I agree with StreetShooter.

    It is 'nearly' impossible for cs to come in and moderate/auth the identity of the people in the buy/sell section. People still can give fake NIRC/Tel/Address if they want, unless you want us to go to every seller's house and knock on their door.. then check their IC number...

    I think the most important thing is that the buyer/seller to play smart and be honest.
    Canon Lover :)

  10. #30
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    I am also agree with Streetshooter.
    Anyway once a while if you often buy secondhand goods, you will get rotten apple without knowing it. It's a fact! Murphy Law!

    I think I can propose one solution for first timer, do transaction in the SEED time. I think lots of people willingly to mediate between seller and buyer.
    Just my opinion.
    Last edited by Knighthunter; 19th November 2002 at 03:25 PM.
    W204FL

  11. #31

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    Originally posted by StreetShooter


    Excuse my language, but I think this is really ridiculous. If you look at the classified ads in Straits Times, I don't see any NRIC or address listed there by the advertisers. All that is there is a contact number. CS is not a third party, unlike ebay or any escrow service, or even the stock exchange. There is absolutely no legal obligation to guarantee any transaction, which is solely between buyer and seller. I mean, if I buy shares and the price goes down, I can't look for the person who sold me the shares and insist that he buy them back at the same price, right?

    In the context of CS Buy and Sell, most of the time a buyer would personally meet the seller to inspect the goods and conduct the transaction. There would already be at least a contact number exchanged. Is it really asking too much of the buyer's common sense to record down the phone number or even request for the NRIC of the seller to note down the address listed there? If the seller refuses (which he has every right to do), you as a buyer have every right to back out of the transaction as well, if you suspect something is amiss. Should there be any allegations of fraud or misrepresentation later, there are always avenues of recourse such as the Small Claims Tribunal.

    Get this: CS Buy and Sell is a FREE and USEFUL service. First time buyers of equipment can and should do their own research by reading reviews and asking around, even looking for volunteers to help them inspect the goods if they want. I don't see any role at all for moderators.
    Looks like the moderators are getting abit on the defensive routine. Look around, we are not trying to point fingers. WE also understand the limitations of CS moderators. But ,on the other hand, we could be the first in something which established ST classified has not done it. I say that the requirement of details is good ideal but alot of technical difficulties have to be sorted out. Maybe we should let the ideal grow abit and see if we can harvest.

    And please try to use neutral tone language. I know it is difficult as a person, but do try abit. It is one of the way to a more gracious society.........
    Last edited by song; 19th November 2002 at 04:11 PM.

  12. #32
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    it's not entirely fair to say the buyer didn't do a thorough research before hand. a lot of us are newbies (like me) and if i were to buy a camera bag, i wouldn't know there's this little detachable film pouch that's missing ... probably until someone at SEED points it out to me!

    i believe in this case, since the seller already discovered the defect, it is proper to declare it prior to transaction. anything short of that obviously smells of deceit.

  13. #33
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    Originally posted by hyun
    it's not entirely fair to say the buyer didn't do a thorough research before hand. a lot of us are newbies (like me) and if i were to buy a camera bag, i wouldn't know there's this little detachable film pouch that's missing ... probably until someone at SEED points it out to me!

    i believe in this case, since the seller already discovered the defect, it is proper to declare it prior to transaction. anything short of that obviously smells of deceit.


    hmm i guess this is the model?
    http://www.lowepro.com/pages/series/proaw/compactaw.htm


  14. #34

    Default Just my two cents..

    Originally posted by song


    Looks like the moderators are getting abit on the defensive routine. Look around, we are not trying to point fingers. WE also understand the limitations of CS moderators. But ,on the other hand, we could be the first in something which established ST classified has not done it. I say that the requirement of details is good ideal but alot of technical difficulties have to be sorted out. Maybe we should let the ideal grow abit and see if we can harvest.

    And please try to use neutral tone language. I know it is difficult as a person, but do try abit. It is one of the way to a more gracious society.........
    Hm, why are you saying that the mods are getting a bit on the defensive routine? I don't think they are trying to protect anyone whatsoever...... IMHO, what they have said are impartial opinions.

    Just my two cents....
    With regards to the identification system, I personally feel that this is not a very feasible idea.

    AFAI can think of,
    1) There are considerable loopholes in collecting these technical information (as what some people have earlier pointed out). There is definitely no way in which the mods or anyone else out of SIR can verify the authencity of these information, and ecen if one works in SIR, he/she can't do it as well.

    If the creditability of these information is dubious, then this system will eventually collapse.

    There is also the possibility of those senstitive information being misused on the net. I don't think anyone would feel safe (and that includes me, sadly.. ) to leave their IC and address on the net, but I will not mind giving it to those people that I can trust.

    And you can't possibly expect the mods to keep an eye on every single buy and sell post on the net... It's way way way too impossible.. Each of us has his/her commitments (be it be work, play or whatsoever) and they are helping out to regulate the forums on a freewill basis. I don't see the justification on why they should be keeping an eye on every single post.

    And should they miss out on some posts, and by concidence, the deal falls out, they would be blamed as incompetent. That would be kinda unfair to those mods right? It's not as if they are paid to do the job.

    As CS is a free service kindly sponsored by some of the members right here, we definitely do not have the resources (financial or otherwise) to provide and implement such a "feature" right here.

    Places like ebay, escrow can afford to provide such a service as they are getting money out of this: Ebay charges the seller for every auction posted online, and escrow charges as well.

    The best way (and this has probably tried and tested) in almost every buy and sell forum on the net is to do your own research on the net. This is probably the best, easiest and fastest way to regulate the buy and sell forum on the net without any 3rd party
    intervention.

    hyun > Yes, you are right in what you say...
    But that's where the Internet comes in.
    For me, before I buy 2nd hand products on these buy and sell forums, I will check that particular product online / go down to a shop to check it out.

    Then I will ask the buyer on the condition of the product, and the existence of any accompanying accessories (in which I would have known prior to buying). For electronics, I will try to ask for a 7 day money-back policy if there are any defects in the product.

    If you have no time to check it out in the stores, you can always post in the forums, asking the CS-ers for help...

    Just my 0.000000000002 cents...
    Pardon me if I sounded rude in anyway whatsoever...
    Last edited by SNAG; 19th November 2002 at 04:53 PM.

  15. #35
    ClubSNAP Admin Darren's Avatar
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    Originally posted by song
    Looks like the moderators are getting abit on the defensive routine.
    whadya mean mods are getting defensive .. we never get defensive .. you wanna get defensive wif me, come on down to ClubSNAP HQ and i show u what defensive means with a Capital D ...



    Okay guys (and gals) no need to get touchy and personal and I agree that eveyones tone of voice could do with a bit of toning down.

    posted by jeff chenClubsnap: the Q is why do u allow pple to conduct buying and selling without real names, address and contacts being put out on the web? Only real names can be used, then pple will be more careful and hopefully more honest. I think CS need to be more active (in its role) if it wants to have a buy/ sell column.
    Jeff, it would be great if everyone registered with their real name (most of us do) and I would only be too glad to refer to someone with their real name rather than their nick (its actually rather awkward when you intro yourself as LordFarquardTheTall at SEED to others). But we cannot force that onto everyone, and also, we do not have the means nor the mechanism to check their true identity - we just have to trust that the person is who they say they are.

    I have not seen any system on the Web that *easily enables* a person to identify themselves (well, apart from those porn sites, which ... err... i hear they verify via the person's credit card, but... ermm...i don't really know cos I don't go to those kind of sites ..ermm ... well, so my friends tell me .. u know ..err ... rrigghttt..) to gain access to a forum or a system that works across all geographies (ie able to ID a person from US). BUT doing that will severely limit the forums attractiveness. AND that is providing the person wants to be identified as well.

    So I guess what I am saying is that it is virtually impossible for ClubSNAP to come up with a technical solution for this (but, hey, if you have the idea and the outline, come discuss to see if we can market it for you ) and everyone has to do their due diligence to make sure that they are not cheated (buyers as well as sellers).

    Being a newbie does not excuse a person from not doing their homework, in fact, newbies should ASK more (and this is EXACTLY what ClubSNAP is here for) before they commit.

  16. #36
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    Originally posted by Knighthunter
    I think I can propose one solution for first timer, do transaction in the SEED time. I think lots of people willingly to mediate between seller and buyer.
    Just my opinion.
    i think that is not a bad idea after all...but why not try to find out from shops near-by what comes in the package.

  17. #37
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    Originally posted by song
    Looks like the moderators are getting abit on the defensive routine. Look around, we are not trying to point fingers. WE also understand the limitations of CS moderators. But ,on the other hand, we could be the first in something which established ST classified has not done it. I say that the requirement of details is good ideal but alot of technical difficulties have to be sorted out. Maybe we should let the ideal grow abit and see if we can harvest.
    Perhaps you could help by drawing some guidelines and pointers?


    Originally posted by song
    And please try to use neutral tone language. I know it is difficult as a person, but do try abit. It is one of the way to a more gracious society.........
    Yes, don't forget the tone you use. As quoted:

    Originally posted by song
    Worst, this is a singapore based forum and imagine the harm done to our image as singaporeans.

  18. #38

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    Originally posted by Darren
    whadya mean mods are getting defensive .. we never get defensive .. you wanna get defensive wif me, come on down to ClubSNAP HQ and i show u what defensive means with a Capital D ...



    Okay guys (and gals) no need to get touchy and personal and I agree that eveyones tone of voice could do with a bit of toning down.

    Jeff, it would be great if everyone registered with their real name (most of us do) and I would only be too glad to refer to someone with their real name rather than their nick (its actually rather awkward when you intro yourself as LordFarquardTheTall at SEED to others). But we cannot force that onto everyone, and also, we do not have the means nor the mechanism to check their true identity - we just have to trust that the person is who they say they are.

    I have not seen any system on the Web that *easily enables* a person to identify themselves (well, apart from those porn sites, which ... err... i hear they verify via the person's credit card, but... ermm...i don't really know cos I don't go to those kind of sites ..ermm ... well, so my friends tell me .. u know ..err ... rrigghttt..) to gain access to a forum or a system that works across all geographies (ie able to ID a person from US). BUT doing that will severely limit the forums attractiveness. AND that is providing the person wants to be identified as well.

    So I guess what I am saying is that it is virtually impossible for ClubSNAP to come up with a technical solution for this (but, hey, if you have the idea and the outline, come discuss to see if we can market it for you ) and everyone has to do their due diligence to make sure that they are not cheated (buyers as well as sellers).

    Being a newbie does not excuse a person from not doing their homework, in fact, newbies should ASK more (and this is EXACTLY what ClubSNAP is here for) before they commit.
    The defensive which i meant was that CS moderators tried to stress that they have limited time as they are only volunteers. This i agree truely.... . But then , we should let the ideal grows abit first without quicky citing that they are only volunteers and hence no time to consider.

    Still, i must stress that i sincerely appreciate what CS has done for the community in coming up with this forum.

    By the way, where is the HQ of CS.. just curious. Of course, i am not going down to see the "D" in your defensive.

  19. #39
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    I know this will raise a few eyebrows and I make no apology for it being to the point.

    As far as I am concerned when you buy something used you buy it "AS IS" and if you later discover something is missing then it's your tough luck for not checking or knowing what the item should have come with.

    As the Romans said "Caveat Emptor" - Let the buyer beware.

    When buying locally you should always thoroughly inspect the item and if you aren't 100% happy with it then don't buy it. It's really that simple so don't blame anyone but yourself if you don't get exactly what you were after.

    Buying used from eBay and other online locations is a bit more trickya nd not something I'd recommend a novice do as it's all too easy to be mislead, ripped off etc.
    The Ang Moh from Hell
    Professional Photography - many are called, few are chosen!

  20. #40

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    Originally posted by Goondu


    Perhaps you could help by drawing some guidelines and pointers?




    Yes, don't forget the tone you use. As quoted:

    Eh, sorry lah...

    but don't pick me leh. Just trying to make a point here that we should always try to see how an ideal grows before giving it a premature death. That is how creativity comes in...

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