View Poll Results: Is it necessary to use Atomic Bomb against Japan ?

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  • Yes, Japan will surrender earlier

    56 63.64%
  • No, Japan will surrender anyway

    28 31.82%
  • Not sure

    4 4.55%
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Thread: Military Discussion : Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Atomic Bombing 1945)

  1. #21

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Atomic Bombing 1945)

    The 2 atomic bombs, the shock it created in the political leadership of Japan, served to quicken the end of the war against Japan. If they were not used, the Allied will likely have to invade the main islands of Japan. To do so, just like Europe, the invasion will be preceeded by intense strategic bombing. If we use the fire bombing of Dresden and the estimated 25K dead, as an example, the numbers are clear, a conventional war will cause many more lives than the death from the atomic bombs.

    The atomic bombs were thought to be the most expediant way to end the war, and they did end the war.
    Last edited by Deadpoet; 23rd January 2006 at 04:37 PM.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member azul123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Atomic Bombing 1945)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    The 2 atomic bombs, the sock it created in the political leadership of Japan, served to quicken the end of the war against Japan. If they were not used, the Allied will likely have to invade the main islands of Japan. To do so, just like Europe, the invasion will be preceeded by intense strategic bombing. If we use the fire bombing of Dresden and the estimated 25K dead, as an example, the numbers are clear, a conventional war will cause many more lives than the death from the atomic bombs.

    The atomic bombs were thought to be the most expediant way to end the war, and they did end the war.
    That was what the argument the Allied had used. Japan was close to surrender already, even now there will be people arguing that Japanese people are proud people and would never surrender if not for the A-Bomb.

    I wonder why drop 2 A-Bombs in Japan, why not drop one in Germany? colour of skins and religion a factor? timing?

    One A-Bomb would have been justified to quicken the end of the war, the second one was just cruel.

    ../azul123

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Atomic Bombing 1945)

    My view (and I have voted) is that the first bomb was justified. The bomb (nicknamed Little Boy) killed an estimated 80k civillian on the spot.

    The second one, (nicknamed Fat Man) on Nagasaki 75k on the spot.

    Facts can be found here

    Now, whether it is justified to me must be seen from various view points.

    Firstly, they estimate that up to 1 million casualties on the US Military if they were to invade the mainland. From experiences in Iwo Jima and Okinawa land battle, where the Japanese would rather die that surrender and the "Divine Wind" kamikaze planes that attacked the ships, the Allied forces (not only Americans) knew that invading it would be an almost impossible if not extremely bloody task. If the Emperor did not surrender, imagine the entire population turning against you (much like Iraq), all with potential suicidal intent. The 1 million excludes civillian casualties. The best way was to make the Japanese surrender. The second point was to give the impression that the Americans have plenty of these bombs available, pushing the Japanese to conceed, even though it was a bluff. There was only 3 bombs made.

    Secondly, if the civillian is not responsible for their government, who is? Don't forget that the people are the one who voted in Hitler and kept the social status and military in power for Japan. The military people are humans who live amongst the civillians and there are more civillians than military people.
    Last edited by Watcher; 23rd January 2006 at 10:47 AM.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Atomic Bombing 1945)

    Quote Originally Posted by azul123
    That was what the argument the Allied had used. Japan was close to surrender already, even now there will be people arguing that Japanese people are proud people and would never surrender if not for the A-Bomb.
    No, they would not surrender if a "normal" invasion of the mainland occurs. What gave you the impression that they were "close to surrender already"?
    Quote Originally Posted by azul123
    I wonder why drop 2 A-Bombs in Japan, why not drop one in Germany? colour of skins and religion a factor? timing?
    The first nuclear bomb in the world was detonated on July 16, 1945. That was way after VE day (May 8, 1945); please check your facts first before putting such inflammatary statement. Unless you are saying that they should detonate over Germany anyway...

    Quote Originally Posted by azul123
    One A-Bomb would have been justified to quicken the end of the war, the second one was just cruel.
    ../azul123
    No. They had not surrendered after the first bomb was released. There was in-fighting amongst the war cabinet. Many could not conceive that they surrender. Read section 12 of this article. Quicken possibly, but not end it.
    Last edited by Watcher; 23rd January 2006 at 10:43 AM.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Atomic Bombing 1945)

    Well, all I can say is.... if that brilliant genius who created E=mc square did not flight away from europe to US, all this will not happen on that 2 bombing day, right?
    Anyway, what is pass is pass.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Atomic Bombing 1945)

    azul123's sentiment is inline with many apologist today. It seems fashionable to accuse the US for dropping the 2 atomic bombs, but did the US start the war? Japan did. The apologist further accuse the US as the bad guy because the 2 atomic bombs killed roughly 180K-200K people, but the bomb ended the war in the most expediant manner the US knew how at the time. Saved lots of lives.

    The 2 bombs also served as good but painful lessons what nuclear weapon can do, and demonstrated its impact and effects in real life, not in silulations. At the end, the 2 bombs killed many to save many more, and serve as a reminder to us all, it cannot be repeated again.
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  7. #27
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Atomic Bombing 1945)

    There are 2 schools of thought, where the A-Bomb is concerned.

    But I personally see the Atomic Bomb as a political tool.

    Assuming if the A-Bombs had not been dropped and Japan surrendered to the United States, the possibility of Soviet occupation of Japan turning Hokkaido into a Communist state is very real and we could possibly see a scenario like North & South Korea or even a Vietnam War, tearing Japan into two ideological states.

    Till now, the Shakalin Islands are part of Russian territory where before the war, the Russians occupied the northern half and the Japanese occupied the Southern half.

    We all knew that after the A-Bomb on Hiroshima, Russia declared war on Japan. But what wasn't told to all in history textbooks that the Soviet Union moved into the Southern half of the Shakalin Islands AND declared war. Which meant that the Red Army was already knocking on the doors of Japan and the United States are already in Japan territory after the occupation of Iwo Jima and Okinawa.

    I'm sure we all knew what happened to Germany after the war and the fallout from WWII into Vietnam and Korea where wars of ideology broke out.
    Last edited by jsbn; 23rd January 2006 at 11:00 AM.
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  8. #28
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Atomic Bombing 1945)

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectrum
    Well, all I can say is.... if that brilliant genius who created E=mc square did not flight away from europe to US, all this will not happen on that 2 bombing day, right?
    Anyway, what is pass is pass.
    Wrong. The Nazi Germany was about 1 - 2 years behind the Americans in making the Atomic bomb. They didn't have "that brilliant genius" at all.

    If the Nazis had not made a few disasterous campaign, they might have lasted long enough to get the bomb. Eg Operation Barbarossa invading Soviet Union.

    In any case, the critical person / "father of" the atomic bomb project wasn't Albert Einsein, it was Robert Oppenheimer
    Last edited by Watcher; 23rd January 2006 at 11:09 AM.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Atomic Bombing 1945)

    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher
    The first nuclear bomb in the world was detonated on July 16, 1945. That was way after VE day (May 8, 1945); please check your facts first before putting such inflammatary statement. Unless you are saying that they should detonate over Germany anyway...
    A-bomb development and testing was in the days when Germany was still in the war, in fact German and Communists country scientists were being recruited... don't believe all that you read lah, as it was said earlier history was written by the victors.

    I guess you are also, one to believe the the US landed on the moon? the camera also can play tricks on you, so don't also believe all that you see, too.

    ../azul123

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Atomic Bombing 1945)

    At that point in WW2, Japan was already at its limits in terms of resources. The population was already feeling the heat. It would have to surrender as it slowly ran out of it. I feel that the A bomb was not a necessity. It was targetted on civilian cities, leading to needless lost of lives. The radiation further killed and deformed the populations that lived there. Total disregard of civilian lives.

    Trivia: 80's europoop group OMD sang Enola Gay, which was about that A-bomb mission. Enola Gay was the name of the B-29 bomber that dropped the A-bomb.


  11. #31
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Atomic Bombing 1945)

    They WERE 1-2yrs behind the Americans in development of the WMD but their 'lightning war' had unprecidented success in the early stages of the war.

    But how many times a lightning can strike before it loses it efficiency?
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  12. #32
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Atomic Bombing 1945)

    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher
    Wrong. The Nazi Germany was about 1 - 2 years behind the Americans in making the Atomic bomb. They didn't have "that brilliant genius" at all.
    Well, this also tell us that good will always win evil in the end....

  13. #33

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Atomic Bombing 1945)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zplus
    At that point in WW2, Japan was already at its limits in terms of resources. The population was already feeling the heat. It would have to surrender as it slowly ran out of it. I feel that the A bomb was not a necessity. It was targetted on civilian cities, leading to needless lost of lives. The radiation further killed and deformed the populations that lived there. Total disregard of civilian lives.

    Trivia: 80's europoop group OMD sang Enola Gay, which was about that A-bomb mission. Enola Gay was the name of the B-29 bomber that dropped the A-bomb.

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  14. #34
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Atomic Bombing 1945)

    Quote Originally Posted by azul123
    A-bomb development and testing was in the days when Germany was still in the war, in fact German and Communists country scientists were being recruited... don't believe all that you read lah, as it was said earlier history was written by the victors.

    I guess you are also, one to believe the the US landed on the moon? the camera also can play tricks on you, so don't also believe all that you see, too.

    ../azul123
    Yup! The moon thing is half true or not true at all. Like the moving pics they showed astronuats moving around, but it shows that is something similar to earth gravity when it's play twice the speed. Hmmmm.....

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Atomic Bombing 1945)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
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    I love that song man! Enola Gay

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Atomic Bombing 1945)

    Quote Originally Posted by azul123
    A-bomb development and testing was in the days when Germany was still in the war, in fact German and Communists country scientists were being recruited... don't believe all that you read lah, as it was said earlier history was written by the victors.

    I guess you are also, one to believe the the US landed on the moon? the camera also can play tricks on you, so don't also believe all that you see, too.

    ../azul123
    Of course, they were in development before then. But the very first atomic bomb in the world that detonated was at Trinity, New Mexico on July 16. That was the first bomb, unless you are saying that they had another bomb that they had detonated before that but didn't tell the world and didn't use it to stop even Japan before that

    Conspiracy theory, meet Occam's Razor

  17. #37
    Senior Member azul123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Atomic Bombing 1945)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    The 2 bombs also served as good but painful lessons what nuclear weapon can do, and demonstrated its impact and effects in real life, not in silulations. At the end, the 2 bombs killed many to save many more, and serve as a reminder to us all, it cannot be repeated again.
    Hmmm... why didn't they use the same argument to bomb Vietnam to save many other lives?

    ../azul123

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Atomic Bombing 1945)

    Quote Originally Posted by azul123
    Hmmm... why didn't they use the same argument to bomb Vietnam to save many other lives?

    ../azul123
    I think Vietnam is different. They did not bomb US military facilities anyway.
    But one think I do realise is that the americans won't dare to touch the chinese. As the Korean & the Vietnam war have already taught them the lesson. For those who know a lot more, please add in more cos I don't bother much in war history anyway. Do flame me if you want to....

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Atomic Bombing 1945)

    Quote Originally Posted by azul123
    I wonder why drop 2 A-Bombs in Japan, why not drop one in Germany? colour of skins and religion a factor? timing?
    ../azul123
    Hi there,

    For a start, the Manhattan Project was start in 1939 as the Nazis were rumored to be developing an atomic bomb. The United States initiated its own program under the Army Corps of Engineers in June 1942. America needed to build an atomic weapon before Germany or Japan did. The initial thought was to use the Atomic Bomb against the Germany to stop the war in Europe. However, the war ended early at German front and so they continue and use it in the Asia war front.

    General Leslie R. Groves, Deputy Chief of Construction of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, was appointed to direct this top-secret project.
    Last edited by Francis247; 23rd January 2006 at 11:47 AM.
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  20. #40

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Atomic Bombing 1945)

    Quote Originally Posted by azul123
    Hmmm... why didn't they use the same argument to bomb Vietnam to save many other lives?

    ../azul123
    MAD. Mutual Assured Destruction. Heard about it? At that time, if the US use nuclear weapon in Vietnam, the Soviet and Chinese will likely intervene, and escalation looked inevitable. This is not an option. All through the cold war, MAD was providing the underlying stability for the geopolitical stage. No one dared to make a rash move, hence we ara safe.

    Further, American support for unilaterally using nuclear weapons was zero. Remember, the US was and is run by public opinion polls. MacArthur did comtemplate using atomic weapons to create a buffer zone north of the Yalu. Luckily, calmer heads prevailed.
    Last edited by Deadpoet; 23rd January 2006 at 04:39 PM.
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