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Thread: VR/IS/OIS Vs ISO

  1. #21

    Default Re: VR/IS/OIS Vs ISO

    Quote Originally Posted by wildstallion
    i have d70s and just did the same test but with a greater difference in iso, here are the results

    ISO 200= 2.24MB (large and fine)
    ISO 1600= 2.77MB (large and fine)

    precentage difference is around 19.14% if my maths is correct

    and in RAW

    ISO 200=5.0MB
    ISO 1600=5.67MB

    precentage difference of 11.9%

    Hope this helps!
    Thanks for the experiment and info.

    Now I have a better idea of the difference in file size at different ISO.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: VR/IS/OIS Vs ISO

    Quote Originally Posted by Clockunder
    So IS shouldn't be used for panning because it detects the camera panning movement and counters the movement, thus causing the accuracy of panning to go harewire.
    alright...just to clear the confusion...

    Canon's IS got two mode...mode I is for normal use, mode II is for panning use.

    According to the manual, mode II corrects vibrations and shaking only in the direction at right angles to the camera's panning movement. Meaning...you can actually pan in any direction (not just left to right), as long as u set the IS to mode II, the lens will compensate accordingly.

    "The image stabilizer system is effective not only for a stationary subject, but also for panning a moving subject. When a photographer shoots a moving subject, camera shake in one direction is usually much larger than in the one of the other direction. If a major vibration continues for a certain time, the image stabilizer system determines that this movement is conscious camera operation, rather than camera shake. In this case, correction in the relevant direction is halted, and correction perpendicular to the panning direction is implemented. Therefore, the system detects panning operation and executes the appropriate control suitable for panning."
    Also, according to http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...0-frames.shtml

    If you set a Canon IS lens to Mode II, and the camera is not panning, it will function as if it's in Mode I. Then, if you start to pan the lens will switch to Mode II operation. Smart right?

    The IS modules in newer lenses are even smarter...when u mount the camera on tripod, it will turn off the IS, reason is that IS will behave unexpectedly when u mount the camera on tripod.

    The only time when u really need to turn off IS is when you are shooting sports. Hand-shaking will not be an issue when u are shooting sports at high shutter speed, but because of the fast movement, the IS may behave unexpectedly, and make the image even more blur. Unfortunately, I know many pple here with IS/VR/AS/OS will leave them on at all time, even when they are shooting at high shutter speed
    Last edited by Wai; 22nd January 2006 at 11:59 PM.

  3. #23

    Default Re: VR/IS/OIS Vs ISO

    Quote Originally Posted by Wai
    yah..the only few situation when u need VR/IS/OS, but how often u want to capture such motion blur? For me, 99.9% of the time I will rather have higher shutter speed, when u are already shooting at wide open, the only way u can achieve this is to push the ISO higher.

    i will rather pay extra $$ for higher ISO, than to have VR/IS/OS
    The question here is whether much better high ISO noise performance in cameras will make Image Stabilisers (IS) obsolete/redundant.


    The question is not how often we need IS nor what your would rather have or pay. It is whether better high ISO performance is a perfect substitute for IS and therefore IS will be obsolete if high ISO is as noise-free as low ISO.

    First, we have to recognise that IS is used in 2 general types of situations :

    1) You're forced, due to the light conditions, to use a slow shutter speed which is much lower than 1/focal length and the image is blur if shot handheld
    or
    2) You want to use a slower shutter speed (much lower than 1/focal length) to capture what you want.

    For (1), IS is made redundant if much higher ISO is available and is as noise-free as low ISO and enough to push the shutter speed high enough to avoid most camera shake blur.

    For (2), these are numerous situations in which a higher shutter speed would not be able to capture what we want. The motion blur example is just one of many such situations in which some people want to use a slow shutter speed. Others include shooting waterfall, some night landscapes, light trails of disco lights, luminous sticks, etc. and basically, anything you want to capture with low shutter speed to convey certain effects/messages to the viewer and and is not limited only to low light conditons (can be in the day too such as someone/animal running/chasing after something or someone waving his hands to say no). The shake is also not restricted to handheld shake but could also be on a tripod due to vibrations from pressing of shutter realease button, from vehicles passing very nearby or on bridge and from wind etc.

    In (2), having high ISO as noise-free as low ISO will be of no use because you want to shoot with Shutter Priority mode at those low shutter speed and any increase in ISO would necessitates a faster shutter speed (won't be able to capture the effects you want) and/or a bigger aperture (won't be able to have the DOF you have in mind).

    The conclusion here is that, since better high ISO cannot replace IS in all situations, IS still has its place and is still required in some situations even if we have much higher and better ISO performances.

    IS won't be obsolete just because what you don't use low shutter speed often and you rather pay for higher ISO.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: VR/IS/OIS Vs ISO

    Wow! Think Clockunder hit the nails on it's head..

    However for some example you have mentioned, I will think sometimes VR also cannot help you.

    Most of those slow motion thingy need a tripod. eg. waterfall, traffice trail. Need at least 1sec and up to get any decent effect from my experience.

    Only example I have to agree is the dancing one..

    Even with VR, i think most result will be unsharp from 1/4 sec and below. (Wide angle 20mm as benchmark)

  5. #25

    Default Re: VR/IS/OIS Vs ISO

    Quote Originally Posted by Wai
    alright...just to clear the confusion...

    Canon's IS got two mode...mode I is for normal use, mode II is for panning use.

    According to the manual, mode II corrects vibrations and shaking only in the direction at right angles to the camera's panning movement. Meaning...you can actually pan in any direction (not just left to right), as long as u set the IS to mode II, the lens will compensate accordingly.



    Also, according to http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...0-frames.shtml

    If you set a Canon IS lens to Mode II, and the camera is not panning, it will function as if it's in Mode I. Then, if you start to pan the lens will switch to Mode II operation. Smart right?

    The IS modules in newer lenses are even smarter...when u mount the camera on tripod, it will turn off the IS, reason is that IS will behave unexpectedly when u mount the camera on tripod.

    The only time when u really need to turn off IS is when you are shooting sports. Hand-shaking will not be an issue when u are shooting sports at high shutter speed, but because of the fast movement, the IS may behave unexpectedly, and make the image even more blur. Unfortunately, I know many pple here with IS/VR/AS/OS will leave them on at all time, even when they are shooting at high shutter speed
    Panasonic FZ5 OIS is slightly different.

    Manual says "The stabiliser may not work if when taking pictures when following subject in motion" (i..e. I suppose it means panning).

  6. #26
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    Default Re: VR/IS/OIS Vs ISO

    Think VR will really helps if we wanna take "lao yu sheng".. haa haa..

    Hang held at 1/4sec for that frenzy effect.

  7. #27

    Default Re: VR/IS/OIS Vs ISO

    Quote Originally Posted by binbeto
    Wow! Think Clockunder hit the nails on it's head..

    However for some example you have mentioned, I will think sometimes VR also cannot help you.

    Most of those slow motion thingy need a tripod. eg. waterfall, traffice trail. Need at least 1sec and up to get any decent effect from my experience.

    Only example I have to agree is the dancing one..

    Even with VR, i think most result will be unsharp from 1/4 sec and below. (Wide angle 20mm as benchmark)
    Yes, IS won't be a panacea for all shake problem.

    It's afterall only 2 stops which may not be enough in all situations.

    As for waterfall, it depends on how fast the waterfall is and how large its flow is. If the flow is large and very fast, then a relatively fast speed of 1/4-1/15 would be able to create the smooth effect you want.

    Yes, 1/4-1/8 could be the threshold to avoid handshake blur with IS.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: VR/IS/OIS Vs ISO

    Quote Originally Posted by Clockunder
    Panasonic FZ5 OIS is slightly different.

    Manual says "The stabiliser may not work if when taking pictures when following subject in motion" (i..e. I suppose it means panning).
    Oh...i didn't expect panasonic's OIS to be that lousy

    since u were talking about IS, which means you are talking about Canon's IS technology, and the fact is, it support panning.

    Even Nikon's VR and Konica Minolta's AS will detect panning and disable compensation on the opposite axis.

  9. #29

    Default Re: VR/IS/OIS Vs ISO

    Quote Originally Posted by binbeto
    Think VR will really helps if we wanna take "lao yu sheng".. haa haa..

    Hang held at 1/4sec for that frenzy effect.
    That's one which I didn't think of.

    So generally, I suppose IS would be most helpful if we want to shoot at 1/4-1/15 range.

    BTW, do you know is that any shutter speed(s) beyond which we won't get handshake blur regardless of how we shake the camera and regardless of focal length when we take our shots?

  10. #30
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    Default Re: VR/IS/OIS Vs ISO

    Quote Originally Posted by Clockunder
    For (2), these are numerous situations in which a higher shutter speed would not be able to capture what we want. The motion blur example is just one of many such situations in which some people want to use a slow shutter speed. Others include shooting waterfall, some night landscapes, light trails of disco lights, luminous sticks, etc. and basically, anything you want to capture with low shutter speed to convey certain effects/messages to the viewer and and is not limited only to low light conditons (can be in the day too such as someone/animal running/chasing after something or someone waving his hands to say no). The shake is also not restricted to handheld shake but could also be on a tripod due to vibrations from pressing of shutter realease button, from vehicles passing very nearby or on bridge and from wind etc.
    For the sake of the rest of CSer here, go read up before you make your own assumptions. As suggested by the manual, IS/VR/AS can help up to only 2 stops, and for shooting waterfall, night landscapes..etc, you may need >1sec for decent effects, so nothing except a tripod can help you.

    And FYI, you should turn off IS/VR/AS when you are using tripod, else IS/VR/AS will behave unexpectedly and make the image more blur, so stop assuming that IS/VR/AS will help when u are shooting on tripod with strong wind and passing vehicles....blah blah blah

  11. #31

    Default Re: VR/IS/OIS Vs ISO

    Quote Originally Posted by Wai
    Oh...i didn't expect panasonic's OIS to be that lousy

    since u were talking about IS, which means you are talking about Canon's IS technology, and the fact is, it support panning.

    Even Nikon's VR and Konica Minolta's AS will detect panning and disable compensation on the opposite axis.
    I wonder how good is the IS/VR/AS compensation during panning.

    Any idea?

  12. #32

    Default Re: VR/IS/OIS Vs ISO

    IS will not help if you need to stop motion, etc.. paning? Try with monopod must easier.

    I have my IS off 95% of the time. Waste of time (it takes a bit longer to AF when IS is on), and waste of battery as well!

  13. #33

    Default Re: VR/IS/OIS Vs ISO

    Quote Originally Posted by Wai
    For the sake of the rest of CSer here, go read up before you make your own assumptions. As suggested by the manual, IS/VR/AS can help up to only 2 stops, and for shooting waterfall, night landscapes..etc, you may need >1sec for decent effects, so nothing except a tripod can help you.

    And FYI, you should turn off IS/VR/AS when you are using tripod, else IS/VR/AS will behave unexpectedly and make the image more blur, so stop assuming that IS/VR/AS will help when u are shooting on tripod with strong wind and passing vehicles....blah blah blah
    For shooting waterfall, what shutter speed to use depends on how fast and how large the flow is. Please read up how to shoot waterfall before using a one fit all shutter speed threshold :

    http://www.acdsystems.com/community/...?id=2005-08-17

    Strong winds and passing vehicles will affect if it's handheld. So IS will still help in those situations.
    Last edited by Clockunder; 23rd January 2006 at 01:17 AM.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: VR/IS/OIS Vs ISO

    Quote Originally Posted by Clockunder
    I wonder how good is the IS/VR/AS compensation during panning.

    Any idea?
    Probably it would be better for you to try out and convince yourself.

  15. #35

    Default Re: VR/IS/OIS Vs ISO

    Quote Originally Posted by Wai
    For the sake of the rest of CSer here, go read up before you make your own assumptions. As suggested by the manual, IS/VR/AS can help up to only 2 stops, and for shooting waterfall, night landscapes..etc, you may need >1sec for decent effects, so nothing except a tripod can help you.

    And FYI, you should turn off IS/VR/AS when you are using tripod, else IS/VR/AS will behave unexpectedly and make the image more blur, so stop assuming that IS/VR/AS will help when u are shooting on tripod with strong wind and passing vehicles....blah blah blah
    Any idea why IS/VR/AS will behave unexpectedly and make the image more blur if shooting on tripod?

  16. #36
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    Default Re: VR/IS/OIS Vs ISO

    Quote Originally Posted by oeyvind
    IS will not help if you need to stop motion, etc.. paning? Try with monopod must easier.

    I have my IS off 95% of the time. Waste of time (it takes a bit longer to AF when IS is on), and waste of battery as well!
    For me, if i know there will be situation where i need longer exposure, i will bring along a tripod. To me, 99% of the time i will want faster shutter speed (by open up aperture or increase ISO) to reduce the effect of handshaking. But when one rely too much on IS/VR/AS/OS, you may unknowingly capture a lot of motion blur, which are not desirable most of the time.

  17. #37

    Default Re: VR/IS/OIS Vs ISO

    Quote Originally Posted by oeyvind
    IS will not help if you need to stop motion, etc.. paning? Try with monopod must easier.

    I have my IS off 95% of the time. Waste of time (it takes a bit longer to AF when IS is on), and waste of battery as well!
    Have you ever tried IS on when panning (such as shooting F1 powerboat, Wakeboard etc.)? If yes, how was it?

  18. #38
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    Default Re: VR/IS/OIS Vs ISO

    Quote Originally Posted by Clockunder
    Any idea why IS/VR/AS will behave unexpectedly and make the image more blur if shooting on tripod?
    Go google or get one to try yourself.

    Quote from one of our moderators:

    Ignorance I have no problem with. It's those that pretend to know a lot who don't know a lot and mislead a lot that I take issue with.

  19. #39

    Default Re: VR/IS/OIS Vs ISO

    Quote Originally Posted by Wai
    Go google or get one to try yourself.

    Quote from one of our moderators:

    Ignorance I have no problem with. It's those that pretend to know a lot who don't know a lot and mislead a lot that I take issue with.
    Whenever I post my guess or deduction or opinion, I always make it clear that it's a guess or deduction. Guess and deductions are different from assumptions. If I had pretended to know a lot, I won't be stated that it was my guess or deduction, from what I read etc. already and do experiments to show results and say that it's different from my expectations (from what I read earlier).

    Who was the one who pretended to know alot now? Who was surprise that Panasonic OIS can't do panning? Who was the one who said waterfall must be >1 sec without taking into the waterall speed and flow size?

    If you see this discussion in the correct light, then you won't behave like you know it all.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: VR/IS/OIS Vs ISO

    Just discussion guys..

    We can't be understanding all the eqp in the camera worlds... We are just stating what we know and assume.

    Might be wrong, might be right. Only by discussing then we know it all..

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