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Thread: Who are we? What are you?

  1. #141
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    Why are so many people, who just got their hands on a D70, a 350D, 5D or whatever DSLR they got their hands on, will immediately claimed that they shoot professionally also. I wonder whether they know what it means, what it takes, and what it is all about.
    Frankly I have no problem with people calling themselves "professional". I guess professional sounds better than newbie.

    To avoid confusion perhaps we should have some classifications e.g.

    1. Ultimate Professional
    2. Almost-there Professional
    3. Not-quite-there Professional
    4. I-think-I-am-professional Professional
    5. I-own-professional-camera Professional
    6. Amateur Professional
    7. Newbie Professional

    Last edited by Sion; 19th January 2006 at 07:42 PM.

  2. #142

    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    Personally, I would hold in fairly high regard for photographers who have titles/awards such as,

    (1) Dip. Photography
    (2) B. Art (Photography) or M. Art (Photography)
    (3) ARPS, FRPS, or similar prestigious award from US

    appended to their names.

    I would say that photographers from the first two categories, especially (2), have the right to call themselves professionals.

    Photographers who have earned themselves awards from the Royal Photographic Society (of UK) or the equivalent from US (can't recall what it's called), can also rightly call themselves professionals in the field of photography which they won their award for. In Singapore, very few (less than 20) photographers have been conferred with FRPS (to the best of my knowledge which could now be outdated) but quite a number have the respectable ARPS award.

    Basically, I would say that everyone else who doesn't fall into the above categories are self-taught, self-promoted and self-claimed professionals. I'm sure many in ClubSnap are such "professionals".

    If you have read my earlier posts about me switching modes (one day a professional and another day an amateur), I also fall in the above described self-made professional.

    Now, who else has the guts to confess about being a "fake", "con", "phoney", "cheat"?
    Last edited by Jemapela; 19th January 2006 at 11:02 PM.

  3. #143
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    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT ONG
    This is a very very interesting thread by deadpoet ...

    Actually wanted to start reading from page 1 but my time wont alllows it ...

    I have been shooting longer than I would have known it .... I am not full time photographer hence will not call myself Professional as it never been my main bread and butter ... I could only at most cited myself as an advanced amateur

    Been shooting for LianHe ZaoBao before when I was a student photographer ... later shoot wedding using manual SLR and now DSLR for events and some minor wedding shoots .. I am still learning and shooting and I likes to do it Professionally ...
    Go for it, I confirm support you and volunteer to be your PA .

  4. #144
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    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    They are just like frens teasing at one another...just like some called u 'tau gek" or "yandao eh"... of cos there are some true professionals out there.

    My 2 cents.

  5. #145

    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    I really fail to see what all the fuss is about.

    IMHO, the best response to anyone who claims to shoot professionally is;

    "Don't show me your camera
    Don't show me your qualifications
    Just show me your portfolio."


  6. #146

    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jemapela

    #1 Personally, I would hold in fairly high regard for photographers who have titles/awards such as,

    (1) Dip. Photography
    (2) B. Art (Photography) or M. Art (Photography)
    (3) ARPS, FRPS, or similar prestigious award from US

    appended to their names.

    #2 Now, who else has the guts to confess about being a "fake", "con", "phoney", "cheat"?

    #2

    Luckily I do not have to confess anything, although I am quite a rascal with many traits which might suit the various descriptions you listed! !

    Now to #1

    I have a name for this. I call it MULTIPLE DIPLOMATOSIS. (one day I will have to patent this name!). I work in a field where multiple diplomatosis is a prevalent disease. I am also afflicted with this disease.

    In the sense that that this disease meant the victims had gone through some training and acquired some skills which satisfy some examiners (who are also afflicted with the same disease) from organisations which are staffed with people with the same disease, yes, they might be "officially" called professionals.

    But I had since learnt that the affliction by MULTIPLE DIPLOMATOSIS does not necessarily equate professional quality work output by such sufferers. They often do, but not invariably so.

  7. #147

    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    I am just an Hobbyist.

  8. #148
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    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    I just play-play shoot-shoot for fun. And also buy almost professional gear - just feel good about it leh.

    And photo shooting is easy these days - AF, Matrix metering, iTTL flash like auto everything. Just aim, zoom and press the button with the index finger. Just so simple - becos the camera's CPU is so much smarter than that behind the VF.

    Maybe, I should rephrase it - let the camera do all these techical stuff and we focus on the creative part like composition, angles, light, perspective, mood etc.
    Last edited by smallaperture; 20th January 2006 at 09:18 AM.
    I love big car, big house, big lenses, but small apertures.

  9. #149

    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by student
    #2

    Luckily I do not have to confess anything, although I am quite a rascal with many traits which might suit the various descriptions you listed! !

    Now to #1

    I have a name for this. I call it MULTIPLE DIPLOMATOSIS. (one day I will have to patent this name!). I work in a field where multiple diplomatosis is a prevalent disease. I am also afflicted with this disease.

    In the sense that that this disease meant the victims had gone through some training and acquired some skills which satisfy some examiners (who are also afflicted with the same disease) from organisations which are staffed with people with the same disease, yes, they might be "officially" called professionals.

    But I had since learnt that the affliction by MULTIPLE DIPLOMATOSIS does not necessarily equate professional quality work output by such sufferers. They often do, but not invariably so.
    I believe I have a case of MULTIPLE DIPLOMATOSIS, only that the severity could be as bad as MULTIPLE DEGREETOSIS or even MULTIPLE DOCTORATOSIS if I'm not cured. Just that my doc couldn't point out the problem as sharply as you did... I was about to waste another 10 years of my life because of that... after 20 years of that ailment.

  10. #150

    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by student
    But I had since learnt that the affliction by MULTIPLE DIPLOMATOSIS does not necessarily equate professional quality work output by such sufferers. They often do, but not invariably so.
    I must agree with this. I've seen some photography diploma holders from reputable colleges struggle with fundamental exposure techniques when shooting in real life scenarios. It appears that the coursework for a diploma doesn't ensure that they are sufficiently skilled to handle dynamic shooting situations.

  11. #151
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    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by zaren
    I really fail to see what all the fuss is about.

    IMHO, the best response to anyone who claims to shoot professionally is;

    "Don't show me your camera
    Don't show me your qualifications
    Just show me your portfolio."


    i agree...
    It actually does not matter.

    Anyway in my opinion the word "profesional" normally is not given by oneself but by people who appreciate someone's work... i think it is earned from others rather than... by your ownself....

    in any case if someone is called a professional and you dont like that person's work, it does not really matter because it does not affect your own quality of work.

    One might perceive some photos that are of unsatisfactory quality or have no value but they might actually be more understood and appreciated by another. Its a difference of opinion...

  12. #152

    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rheo
    i agree...
    It actually does not matter.

    Anyway in my opinion the word "profesional" normally is not given by oneself but by people who appreciate someone's work... i think it is earned from others rather than... by your ownself....

    in any case if someone is called a professional and you dont like that person's work, it does not really matter because it does not affect your own quality of work.

    One might perceive some photos that are of unsatisfactory quality or have no value but they might actually be more understood and appreciated by another. Its a difference of opinion...
    Well, does it matter? The answer is yes and no, it depends.

    It doesn't matter because as you said, it does not affect the quality of my work, your work, or anyone's work.

    It matters becasue wannabe professional photographers artificially lower the standard of photography. Why, you may ask. Majority of the audience is non-photographer. The word "professional" means to them, a set standard, and a high standard. The wannabe professional photographers are assulting this standard. Should we all just stand aside and see the standard being eroded?

    Rheo also said that the title "professional" is normally given by others who approciate the professional's work. Then my question is why are so many wannabes calling themselves professionals, or claiming the "I shoot professionally"?

    Many would ask, you are just ranting and raving, what are you doing about it. I believe a healthy discussion on this issue is exactly what is needed to raise the awareness and is the first step in the right direct. What exactly should the solution be, I have no idea. Not having a solution does not precluded me from raising the issue, right?
    deadpoet
    my portfolio

  13. #153
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    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    point taken...
    but you cannot force anyone to follow anything...

    unless there is a body that restricts who to be qualified enough to be called proffesional.
    lolx.

    As for spoiling the market? I dont know lolx. For me as i see it, most people would go to a registered company who has people who shoot for a living. They would have a good porfolio or maybe they can be referred by friends, for example weddings.

    Audiences would probably go to an established body to get people who might be "pro"
    If not they would find other means of getting people who are close to being one...

    There is no solution except to better ourselves in watever we do and also mayeb share experience with other photographers i guess?

    I think that point was put across by someone else already... just improve on the work done by people who are striving to be good at photography... it also helps the person who is giving the advice...


    bla bla bla...
    this discussion will go on and on actually
    haha
    Last edited by Rheo; 20th January 2006 at 12:21 PM.

  14. #154
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    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    Well, does it matter? The answer is yes and no, it depends.

    It doesn't matter because as you said, it does not affect the quality of my work, your work, or anyone's work.

    It matters becasue wannabe professional photographers artificially lower the standard of photography. Why, you may ask. Majority of the audience is non-photographer. The word "professional" means to them, a set standard, and a high standard. The wannabe professional photographers are assulting this standard. Should we all just stand aside and see the standard being eroded?

    Rheo also said that the title "professional" is normally given by others who approciate the professional's work. Then my question is why are so many wannabes calling themselves professionals, or claiming the "I shoot professionally"?

    Many would ask, you are just ranting and raving, what are you doing about it. I believe a healthy discussion on this issue is exactly what is needed to raise the awareness and is the first step in the right direct. What exactly should the solution be, I have no idea. Not having a solution does not precluded me from raising the issue, right?

    Actually, why do you keep saying the wannabes lower the standard of pro photographers? I dun see that happening? There's just different levels of pros. There's no lowering of standards at all. Infact there's no standards at all. High standard pros are still high standard pros. Cheap photographers are still cheap photographers.

    Did any wannabes lowered your standard? he he Who?

  15. #155

    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    As long my clients likes my work, i don't care what others do nowadays.

    They are just to many ppl out there who can afford to buy big cameras, lens etc, and they love to shoot FEMALE models. To models, the photographers are professionals, they own big big cameras, to me, why should i care? So long as i keep on improving and get more clients is most important.

    There are guys who can teach theory in school liao, as they know theory damn well on photography, but see their gallery, sigh, their shots aren't that good compare to their theory.

    The wannabes will not lower the standards, but sure will hurt the market.

    By a FULL TIME Photographer.
    Eat breath LIVERPOOL!!!

  16. #156

    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max 2.8
    Actually, why do you keep saying the wannabes lower the standard of pro photographers? I dun see that happening? There's just different levels of pros. There's no lowering of standards at all. Infact there's no standards at all. High standard pros are still high standard pros. Cheap photographers are still cheap photographers.

    Did any wannabes lowered your standard? he he Who?
    layman dunno wat's a good n bad photograph.. they only knows what's a good and bad price...

    afterall $$$ speaks

  17. #157
    Senior Member Pablo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    Does Prophotomatosis lead to dromadrosis
    Time, is an effortless construction :)

  18. #158

    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pablo
    Does Prophotomatosis lead to dromadrosis

    You got me there!

    I only know of wannabetosis speading halitosis!

  19. #159
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    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    Sorry for another long post...

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    It matters becasue wannabe professional photographers artificially lower the standard of photography. Why, you may ask. Majority of the audience is non-photographer. The word "professional" means to them, a set standard, and a high standard. The wannabe professional photographers are assulting this standard.
    The standard of photography is not eroded or lowered. A junk photographer produces junk photos no matter what he calls himself and vice versa for a good photographer. What you are talking about protecting here is not the overall standard of photograhy but the perceived standard of photography that non photogrpahers would associate with the title of "professional photographer". While it is very possible that if a person sees too much junk from self proclaimed "professionals" he will be skeptical when he comes across the next "professional". My point is, so what? That person will still be able to appreciate a good photo when he sees one.

    If the market is flooded with such self proclaimed professionals the effect is simply the diluting of the meaning behind the title "professional photographer", while the standard of the "real" professionals will not be changed by this. The "real" professionals will gradually prefer not to be referred to as "professionals" and a new term will emerge to describe "high standard" photographers. I am sure there are a number of analogies that can be drawn between this and other "professions".

    Don't you see that what you are talking about protecting here is merely the perception of quality by the ill-informed? What you want to protect is the association between "high standard" and the term "professional photographer", not the standard itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    Should we all just stand aside and see the standard being eroded?
    Since the problem is not a real problem, yes, I'd say we just stand aside. However, if you are talking about what can be done to raise the standard of photography within a certain community of photographers regardless of title, then please refer to my earlier post and SS's post.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    Rheo also said that the title "professional" is normally given by others who approciate the professional's work. Then my question is why are so many wannabes calling themselves professionals, or claiming the "I shoot professionally"?
    Again the word "professional" can be used in different context, so I don't see the link you are trying to establish here. If I appreciate a photographer's work I can say his work is "professional" as a compliment, even though he is an amature who has not sold a single piece of his work. Note also that my appreciation of such work is totally subjective. If I see a person who earns his living by providing photography services I would say he is a professional photographer, regardless of his standard of photography. If a person's definition of "professional photographer" is one who is paid to provide photography services regarless of quality or quantity then I can understand why he would call himself a professional is he manages to get a contract for a single wedding shoot. Does that answer your question?


    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    Many would ask, you are just ranting and raving, what are you doing about it. I believe a healthy discussion on this issue is exactly what is needed to raise the awareness and is the first step in the right direct. What exactly should the solution be, I have no idea. Not having a solution does not precluded me from raising the issue, right?
    While you have somehow managed to trigger an interesting discussion here I think you have raised neither a valid nor real issue.

    For the sake of argument, let's talk about how to improve the standard of photograhy in CS.
    The friendly way is to cultivate a general desire for everyone here to improve their own standards, as well as helping others to improve.

    The Draconian way, which I feel is the way you are leaning towards, is to set a strict qualification process for all and prohibit those who are considered as sub-standard from calling themselves photographers and maybe even restrict them from posting pictures until they can meet the bar. Better still, only those who has consistently demonstrated high standard works can remain as members because the perceived standard of photography can only be improved by actual showing of high standard photos. Those who have shown sub-standard work are assulting the perceived standard of photography in CS, and those who have not posted any of their work (that, by the way, includes yourself) are not contributing to the perceived standard of photography in CS, and these 2 groups should be deregistered until they can prove their worth.

    You think that works?
    Last edited by roygoh; 20th January 2006 at 04:00 PM.
    As complexity rises, precise statements lose meaning and meaningful statements lose precision.

  20. #160
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    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    wah your post always so long one ah...

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