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Thread: Who are we? What are you?

  1. #1

    Default Who are we? What are you?

    I am inviting your opinions, slams or what not, please feel free to express your opinion, valid or not, please rage if you like, let it all out. Here is my beef!

    After living here in Singapore for going on 3 years, being a member of CS half that time, I have an observation that had been irritating me, but not until today, I read a thread, and it's the straw that breaks the camel's back.

    Why are so many people, who just got their hands on a D70, a 350D, 5D or whatever DSLR they got their hands on, will immediately claimed that they shoot professionally also. I wonder whether they know what it means, what it takes, and what it is all about.

    We all like to make some money on the side, and if you can make it with your hobby, I have no problem with it. But claiming that you are a professional just because you shoot one or two weddings a year, or did a botched up photoshoot for a catalog for the company you work for during the day and only got the job because your company is too cheap, or picked up a job here or there for peanuts, does not a professional photographer make.

    I personally am an amateur to the core, been shooting for ages, any of you who know what a breech lock FD lens is knows how long that is. I shot some weddings for my friend's wedding planning business way back with manual focusing cameras, but will never dream of calling myself a professional!

    Anyway. It's my opinion. Now as to which is the thread that got me going, well, you will juat have to go search.
    Last edited by Deadpoet; 17th January 2006 at 10:44 AM.
    deadpoet
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    I still consider myself an amature who has a bit of an animal obsession. If I can somehow make some money out of this then I'll be very happy. I think a professional is just someone who can make a FULL living out of photography. Not just to supplement your normal salary but your camera is the one that puts food on your plate. Most of us would qualify as pro-sumers trying to make money on the side.

    Just my $0.02 on what a professional photographer is.
    Furry Photos - Photography for the Modern Pet

  3. #3

    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    Why are so many people, who just got their hands on a D70, a 350D, 5D or whatever DSLR they got their hands on, will immediately claimed that they shoot professionally also. I wonder whether they know what it means, what it takes, and what it is all about.
    Is there really such pple???

    for what i know is that there's someone who brought a prosumer Canon digital camera, and became very proud coz she owns a canon which she thinks is the best and thereafter owning a canon, she believes all her picture will be good.. dont make sense...

    i have been shooting for 5 years.. and still no balls to say i'm professional..

  4. #4
    Member rTwin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    i'll have to agree with deadpoet tt it is total rubbish tt someone who gets a dslr 'automatically' bcomes a pro.. to me i feel tt a professional is exactly like wat raptor84 said.. one who actually shoots for a living.. i feel tt the word "professional" is more of a description of the shooter's job rather den his ability

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    Hehe many old names popping up, breech lock, yes I remember them. I think they are great, no need to turn so much some more, just push and lock the ring. BTW I only hobbyist leh, still learning to use digital camera.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    I sense a lot of frustration and anger in you.
    I can imagine you reading a thread of someone claiming he shot for someone, was paid some cash, and called it a professional shoot.

    Maybe you would lilke the dictionary's explanation of the word "professional". A professional is someone who is paid to do something. No matter how much or little, as long as you get paid to do a job, you are a doing it professionally

    You may have been involved in photography for some years and are proficient to a certain extent, and are thinking " I never claim to be a professional though I'm good, but these idiots do, just because they get paid a few bucks by their friends or their cheapo companies. Hah!"

    Not all of us may have been paid thousands, but many are proud of their achievements and getting paid for them. It is a sense of self-justification, self-satisfaction if you please.

    Forums are an avenue where people are allowed to, to a certain extent, express their views, feelings, thoughts, etc, etc, etc. Let them be. If you are so perturbed by these, then you should not be in a forum, cos you're gonna get lots of it.

  7. #7
    Senior Member sammy888's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    Just one thread you see that kind of stuff? hehe I find that happening every day and in many threads heheh...let them fall...opps I mean let them be lah heh...

    I've done fashion. launch & PR events, weddings, product shoot...the usual stuff most of us would do after some time dabbling with photo equipment but I am at heart and always will be a happy hobbist going on 20 yrs...and I dance to the beat of my own drum.

    Here's what broken my camel's back recently. Some one who just started with a pee shooter(P&S) jumps to a high end Pro DSLR body within the same year but buys entry level zoom lens and then lament about why their pictures are not sharp? hehehe.... that one takes the cake for me.

    But I guess that is the way the world turns. Fair or not. Right or wrong. We just have to shut our mind to these lah. To spend time being disgusted or distracted over something like this is self defeating and worst..I could be using that time to go be more productive over something I know I can help myself be better for it then to pretend to be good at something because we have the means to buy Pro-Gears. heh. But that is what helps companies like Canon or Nikon and other make money. They know there is only so many real Pros to buy their stuff and if ordinary folks don't invest in those kind of equipment too, alot of them will be stuck on the shelves heh.

    But I guess I can understand your feeling as this has a negative reaction on the photographic industry as a whole in that, the lower standard and state of ease to get someone with a camera to shoot something would mean spoiling the market rate for true Pro Photography. But I think it also mean that standard of quality also will drop as expectation is lowered. But maybe that is good too. As too often you may get some one to shoot but you only will know how bad it was done after you got back the shots that the next time you will try to pay more for a established photographer then a Sunday Arm Chair shooter. I have know people like that, they do one or two jobs which by luck or pure inspiration and that becomes their selling portfolio. But the problem is, can they deliver each and everytime. Consistency.

    We define the word "professional" in its purest definition and yes it does mean anyone who gets paid. But we are arguing from the perspect of what the term Professional "embodys" so it not really about just being paid. Here how I see the definition. A Pro does it good time and time again. A photographer misses once in a while. A hobbist can miss as many times as he/she does. I guess Deadpoet is defending the "honor" of what it takes to be called a Professional Photographer. I guess I can relate to that.
    Last edited by sammy888; 17th January 2006 at 12:06 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    Professional

    adjective

    Definitions:

    1. of profession: relating to or belonging to a profession
    professional people

    2. following occupation as paid job: engaged in an occupation as a paid job rather than as a hobbyprofessional tennis player

    3. businesslike: conforming to the standards of skill, competence, or character normally expected of a properly qualified and experienced person in a work environment
    professional attitude

    4. very competent: showing a high degree of skill or competence
    did a very professional job

    5. doing something habitually: habitually, and usually annoyingly, indulging in a particular activity
    a professional complainer

    noun (plural pro·fes·sion·als)

    __________________________________________________ __________________________

    My 2˘: Why bother to be upset with people who labelled themselves as "Professional"?
    I am also using a DSLR (thanks to my wife ), but I am not even an amature, only a novice. Just go out and shoot as much as possible, review and learn from my mistakes.

    Let the work of the person speak for him/herself. Moreover, they label themselves, not a 'title' given and recognised by others.

    Anyway, it is just a title... Pro or not Pro... more importantly, you must enjoy your what you are doing.

    Let those who think they are PRO, be a PRO in their own world.


    Wah....! I see Ssooo many "PROs" walking around in Singapore....

  9. #9

    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis
    Hehe many old names popping up, breech lock, yes I remember them. I think they are great, no need to turn so much some more, just push and lock the ring. BTW I only hobbyist leh, still learning to use digital camera.
    Refreshing to find someone who knows what a breech lock is.
    deadpoet
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    there's a clear distinction between a professional and an amateur. it is what you do and not what you own. here's the definition for clarification:

    pro·fes·sion·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-fsh-nl)
    adj.
    Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
    Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
    Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
    Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
    Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.
    n.
    A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.

    am·a·teur ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-tűr, -tr, -chr, -chr, -tyr)
    n.
    A person who engages in an art, science, study, or athletic activity as a pastime rather than as a profession.
    Sports. An athlete who has never accepted money, or who accepts money under restrictions specified by a regulatory body, for participating in a competition.
    One lacking the skill of a professional, as in an art.

    adj.
    Of or performed by an amateur.
    Made up of amateurs: an amateur cast.
    Not professional; unskillful.

    One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
    A skilled practitioner; an expert.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    am·a·teur ( P )
    n.
    1. A person who engages in an art, science, study, or athletic activity as a pastime rather than as a profession.
    2. Sports. An athlete who has never accepted money, or who accepts money under restrictions specified by a regulatory body, for participating in a competition.
    3. One lacking the skill of a professional, as in an art.

    adj.
    1. Of or performed by an amateur.
    2. Made up of amateurs: an amateur cast.
    3. Not professional; unskillful.

    According to 1, Amateur is a person serious about a hobby/activity (sailing or photograhy) and does not make a living out of it. To be an amateur can be seen as 'higher' than a professional, as you have the time, energy and effort to enjoy an activity without being bothered by financial constraints and 'professional' responsibilities. Many professionals actually shoot pretty badly, as they are just out to earn the bucks.

    I am an amateur (not too skillful, but hopefully I can improve along the way). I am no professional who depends on photography for a living. If we buy an expensive race car, does it make us a professional race driver? hahaha.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    The word "professional" is somewhat of a misnomer.

    Like what was said earlier, "professional" means being paid to do it. If you are paid to do something, technically you are a professional; both in legal and account sense.

    Many people also take "professional" to mean good/very good/excellent in what they or their friends do. It's just a simple way of expressing what they see.

    So, I think we should pardon them for their ignorance, rather then checking on them intentionally misrepresenting themselves.

    I have many times been called "professional" for my images. But I am neither paid nor good (at least good enough!). Go figure .

  13. #13

    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    i am curious why deadpoet is so bothered by the use of the term professional.

    i am more bothered by the etiquette of some cs members.

  14. #14
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    I am inviting your opinions, slams or what not, please feel free to express your opinion, valid or not, please rage if you like, let it all out. Here is my beef!

    After living here in Singapore for going on 3 years, being a member of CS half that time, I have an observation that had been irritating me, but not until today, I read a thread, and it's the straw that breaks the camel's back.

    Why are so many people, who just got their hands on a D70, a 350D, 5D or whatever DSLR they got their hands on, will immediately claimed that they shoot professionally also. I wonder whether they know what it means, what it takes, and what it is all about.

    We all like to make some money on the side, and if you can make it with your hobby, I have no problem with it. But claiming that you are a professional just because you shoot one or two weddings a year, or did a botched up photoshoot for a catalog for the company you work for during the day and only got the job because your company is too cheap, or picked up a job here or there for peanuts, does not a professional photographer make.

    I personally am an amateur to the core, been shooting for ages, any of you who know what a breech lock FD lens is knows how long that is. I shot some weddings for my friend's wedding planning business way back with manual focusing cameras, but will never dream of calling myself a professional!

    Anyway. It's my opinion. Now as to which is the thread that got me going, well, you will juat have to go search.
    Hi Deadpoet,

    Are you refering to this one?

    and this one?

    Hope I'm wrong.

    Regards

  15. #15

    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    I wonder why are you so defensive about my statement. Sore spot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heartshape
    I sense a lot of frustration and anger in you.
    I can imagine you reading a thread of someone claiming he shot for someone, was paid some cash, and called it a professional shoot.

    Maybe you would lilke the dictionary's explanation of the word "professional". A professional is someone who is paid to do something. No matter how much or little, as long as you get paid to do a job, you are a doing it professionally

    You may have been involved in photography for some years and are proficient to a certain extent, and are thinking " I never claim to be a professional though I'm good, but these idiots do, just because they get paid a few bucks by their friends or their cheapo companies. Hah!"

    Not all of us may have been paid thousands, but many are proud of their achievements and getting paid for them. It is a sense of self-justification, self-satisfaction if you please.

    Forums are an avenue where people are allowed to, to a certain extent, express their views, feelings, thoughts, etc, etc, etc. Let them be. If you are so perturbed by these, then you should not be in a forum, cos you're gonna get lots of it.
    By the way, did I in anyway advocate censorship of any kind? Did I even suggest that the wannabes who claimed that they are professional should not be allowed to post and boast? I have been one that always champion free speech, even if what is said is rubbish, it's still free speech. By the way, you seemed to have some problem with what I said, that is ok, you asked me to leave the forum, well you can do that, but I am not going to leave. I will be around to irritate those wannabes claiming to be professionals. I get a kick out of it!
    deadpoet
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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    I am still a 'learning' photographer .... even if we had shot sth well, we should always look fwd to shooting better ...capturing better frames. Most of us here claimed we have a passion for photography ..but how many will forego their highly or comfortably paid job to pursue a life of a photographer. I reckon most just shoot as a hobby and get really good at it. Be mindful that owning PRO equipment does not equate you to a 'PRO' immediately


    To those who have already left their previous job/ career or photography was your chosen career and love every minute of your new photographic job, I salute you I know I know...photographers dun earn much respect/ $$$ locally...unlike overseas where assignments/ jobs are many times more than what is offered here. Dun flame me..I am not saying that those who hold permanent job is not a good photographer....I am just highlighting that if we want to excel in sth, we need to spend more time and effort in it. There is NO shortcut.


    I always have this phrase within me : I LOVE WHAT I SHOOT...AND I SHOOT WHAT I LOVE ..... I started off taking my best friends' wedding......when my pics turned out better than the paid job .... With their encouragement, I never looked back.

    What is a "PRO" ? or even semi-PRO ? It's so subjective..... Am I one ? Neh...... If you know sth I dun, I would love to learn from you. I mean that's what life is all about. Making each day different from the previous. Be humble...learn and expose yourself to new things.....As a wedding photographer, every assignment is always different and it just feels great that we were part of their SPECIAL day. I still remember this phrase shared by ex-CEO of HP, Carly ...

    "What you are today is God's gift to you. What you make of yourself is your gift to God. He is waiting for that gift right now. Make it something extraordinary. "


    With this in mind, I would like to continue to shoot 'extraordinary' frames... pics that wedding couples would remember me for. Impact couples who would remember and appreciate my works... this qualitative aspect is more motivating than anything else.


    Anyway, some of you may not agree with me .... these are just my 3 cents worth


    cheerio !



    Last edited by AhV; 17th January 2006 at 12:02 PM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    Refreshing to find someone who knows what a breech lock is.
    Its inevitable that knowledge will be lost. However, with the immense information on the web now so easily acessible, I think if someone is interested, they may actually find them.

    How many people here actually used a large format camera before, or work on zone system? But I am sure they can find it on the web. Feeling and knowing and working with one is definitely different though.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by pokiemon
    i am curious why deadpoet is so bothered by the use of the term professional.

    i am more bothered by the etiquette of some cs members.
    I am not bothered personally, but such claims are irritating in a general sense, especially to the art of photogrpahy. It lowers the overall standard.

    Ettiquette, over-rated. Mine is horrible anyway, so I have to say it's overated, right

    By the way, it's free speech man, we should all say what we feel, what we think, what we don't like, the world will be a better place.
    Last edited by Deadpoet; 17th January 2006 at 12:07 PM.
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  19. #19
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    WAH!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights
    Hi Deadpoet,

    Are you refering to this one?

    and this one?

    Hope I'm wrong.

    Regards

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Who are we? What are you?

    I already told you I'm an amatuer and newbie hobbyist liao... See? Now you all make deadpoet angry liao saying I PRO...

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