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Thread: PUB wants volunteer photogs for MacRitchie Res.

  1. #41
    Moderator chngpe01's Avatar
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    Default Re: PUB wants volunteer photogs for MacRitchie Res.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velectron
    But for nature shots, you dun even know where what when is the interesting event happening...how do you shoot? Maybe only some Omni-powerful being who can foresee things happening and be everywhere at the same time can do it.
    Are you a nature photographer, have you done any of this before? From what you have said you are clearly not one or one who has no skill at all to understand the subject very well, know where, when and anticipate.

    Looks like you are just talking out of thin air.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: PUB wants volunteer photogs for MacRitchie Res.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velectron
    The wedding photographer is there at the event...if he cannot capture the moment then its his lack of skills. But for nature shots, you dun even know where what when is the interesting event happening...how do you shoot? Maybe only some Omni-powerful being who can foresee things happening and be everywhere at the same time can do it.
    eh... a bit contradictory, aren't u? in all forms of photography, its all abt 'being there', in whichever form of 'decisive moment' u wish to subscribed to. and dat takes skill and loads of practice.

    as our WON mod pointed out, u have no idea wat the heck is involved in nature shooting - REAL nature shooting. u heard of hides, camo netting etc..? all 'standard' equipment of nature shooters. u think those NG photogs capture those cheetahs in sprint by luck. hell no. read up the series of photography books published by NatGeog, and see how their photogs camp out in the bushes and jungles for days (and weeks, for the rare animals and birds) just for dat ONE pic.

    yeah, must electrons has been vented abt this volunteer thingy. chngpe01's point is dat, a lot of effort is spent on nature photography. and for a big organisation like PUB to expect something for nothing is not really acceptable.

    of course, if u are altruistic in nature, by all means go ahead.
    If Life worked on auto mode then manual mode for photography would have never existed. ― Deeksha Mittal

  3. #43
    Member Velectron's Avatar
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    Default Re: PUB wants volunteer photogs for MacRitchie Res.

    Quote Originally Posted by chngpe01
    Are you a nature photographer, have you done any of this before? From what you have said you are clearly not one or one who has no skill at all to understand the subject very well, know where, when and anticipate.

    Looks like you are just talking out of thin air.
    Do you need to get so worked up?

    I agree with you that you can anticipate where and when to shoot if you know your particular subjects very well, like what time is a particular bird most active, where it feeds, what it feeds on and what kind of habitat does it inhabit. But how many photogs that can be hired off the streets would know as much as you do about birds? And interesting things in nature are not just limited to birds by the way, and it will take a very very knowledgeable person to know the habits of all the fauna that lurks around MacRitchie reservoir. The flora can be interesting too you know. Pictures are only half-useful for education if no meaningful captions goes with them.

    Anyway, my point is that its not practical to hire photogs for this sort of work. Its not as if PUB is running discovery channel or something that necessitate the use of professional nature photographers. Sorry if my previous msg is not phrased correctly.
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  4. #44
    Moderator chngpe01's Avatar
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    Default Re: PUB wants volunteer photogs for MacRitchie Res.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velectron
    Do you need to get so worked up?
    And interesting things in nature are not just limited to birds by the way, and it will take a very very knowledgeable person to know the habits of all the fauna that lurks around MacRitchie reservoir.
    Yes, I do, when ppl like just know how to talk like it is so easy, and the worse part is to brush our opinion off. I quote from your previous post "I don't know why people here are so upset about this volunteer thingy. This is about "VOLUNTEERING", which implies you do it out of free will. If you are not willing, then just don't sign up...no point making a big fuss over a small issue." Just as you are entitled to speak, so are we who do not subscribe to PUB calls for volunteers photog, esp, event photography. So why shut us off by your high handed statement?

    Anyway, everybody knows that nature is not just limited to birds. Just because I photograph mainly birds, does not mean that I know nothing about the fauna and flora of a tropical rainforest, don't be too presumptuous. FYI, I have lived in the eastern part of Brunei in the Temburong District for a couple of years, being in and out of the jungle and knows it darn pretty well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velectron
    The flora can be interesting too you know. Pictures are only half-useful for education if no meaningful captions goes with them.
    Again being presumptuous, go see the write-up that goes with many of my posts in the World of Nature Forum. What is Caption only?

    BTW, I can only see 2 posting of pictures from you so far, 1 IR flowers and 1 IR macro and I must say without much meaningful educational caption there, so please walk the talk, I know talking is cheap.

    Enough said.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: PUB wants volunteer photogs for MacRitchie Res.

    diff ppl w/ totally opposite point of views is wad i can c.

    Velectron probably does not share or agree or understand y most members (yap, i m a member too) raise a ruckus over stat boards / well heeled org recuiting volunteers. may i raise a point tt mag publications do hav a pool of competent salaried professional photographers (flame me if i m wrong oki?). surely they hav 2 deliver, rite? there is is diff volunteering 4 a welfare (of any kind) org or a well heeled org. 1 is volunteer in kind in keeping up w/ d volunteering spirit, d other is 2 b shortchanged / exploited 4 1s own gain. i do not represent CS in anyway FYI.

    it is through CS tt i learn / come 2 kno tt volunteering & exploiting (there r always grey areas, i kno. keke) should not b viewed on d same term. a pic is like a canvas of work, their values can never b d same as a blank piece. ttz y it should b treated as such. no1 1s 2 b in a situation whereby his/her works r duplicated 4 a quick profit w/ d convenience & quality of digital imaging. there already r laws 2 protect intellectual property- photography sad 2 say, does not enjoy such a protection. 2 rub salt on d wound a stat board comes in d fray joins d list of org who stoop 2 such level. wont it b a nightmare if u loose ur job jus 2 kno ur company is looking 4 volunteers.

    i oso do not agree tt its not practical 4 PUB 2 hire a competent photographer, jus intro them 2 CS & c d specific gallaries loh. den hire d right guy 4 d job from here. pic is proof isn't it? if PUB did not state who own d rites 2 d submitted images, do d contestants hav d $$ 2 take on PUB?

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    Default Re: PUB wants volunteer photogs for MacRitchie Res.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velectron
    The wedding photographer is there at the event...if he cannot capture the moment then its his lack of skills. But for nature shots, you dun even know where what when is the interesting event happening...how do you shoot? Maybe only some Omni-powerful being who can foresee things happening and be everywhere at the same time can do it.
    So can capture nature is got skill, if that's the case, how to not know where got interesting event happening? You think simply stand at Sugnei Buloh can go home everyday with good shots? Cannot capture moment means lack of skill and must be paid, then capture moments at Macritchie Res is got skill and no need to be paid. Your definition rulez man. Black also you say, white also you say.



    Quote Originally Posted by Velectron
    You seem to forgot that PUB is under the government...and where does the money it gets come from?? Tax payers money of course! So if they pay so much money for a photographer to take Nature pictures (and no gurantee will get interesting pictures), you think the public is not going to complain?? How are they going to account to the tax payers? Sure ganna shot upside down one.

    Got money also doesn't mean can anyhow spend one...
    Like that ah, so all govn no need pay photographer liao right? Then NDP why have paid photographer? Weird leh.. NDP is organised by SAF which is also under gahmen. 1 peak cap ($75), 1 pair drill boot ($150), 1 No 1 uniform set ($70+$40), 1 new rifle sling ($50), 3 blanks ($1.50).

    Therefore 1 GOH (guard of honour) = $366.50

    1 contingent = 120 GOH +10 back up + 2 Ocifer + 2 back up = $49,111

    4 contingent = $196,444

    33 color orderlies + 33 escorts = $24,189

    Total 1 NDP spend on GOH alone = $220,633

    Wah... NDP can spend that kind of money nobody complain, now look for 1 photographer oni will tio complain... Swee la...

  7. #47
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    Default Re: PUB wants volunteer photogs for macritchie res.

    Quote Originally Posted by alechim
    they claim so much utility bills from us and they need volunteers?
    Right !

    If they can have the American system, I'd be glad, you paid your's monthly bill, at the end of the year, if there are any excess balance in their's "PUB"'s account, they rebate to the consumers proportinally, because, you overpaid on the first hand !

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    Default Re: PUB wants volunteer photogs for macritchie res.

    Quote Originally Posted by tzesian
    Right !

    If they can have the American system, I'd be glad, you paid your's monthly bill, at the end of the year, if there are any excess balance in their's "PUB"'s account, they rebate to the consumers proportinally, because, you overpaid on the first hand !
    we can carry on dreaming...

  9. #49

    Default Re: PUB wants volunteer photogs for MacRitchie Res.

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong
    Can PUB afford to pay? Of course! But remember it's not how much money PUB has, at the dept level, every $$ spent must be justified.
    Wai Leong
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    After the NKF, this so called "justified" expenses by all those big co. are all so bullsai......
    always the Light, .... always.

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    Default Re: PUB wants volunteer photogs for MacRitchie Res.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canonised
    After the NKF, this so called "justified" expenses by all those big co. are all so bullsai......
    so many black sheep these days eh...

  11. #51

    Default Re: PUB wants volunteer photogs for MacRitchie Res.

    Quote Originally Posted by chngpe01
    Yes, I do, when ppl like just know how to talk like it is so easy, and the worse part is to brush our opinion off. I quote from your previous post "I don't know why people here are so upset about this volunteer thingy. This is about "VOLUNTEERING", which implies you do it out of free will. If you are not willing, then just don't sign up...no point making a big fuss over a small issue." Just as you are entitled to speak, so are we who do not subscribe to PUB calls for volunteers photog, esp, event photography. So why shut us off by your high handed statement?

    Anyway, everybody knows that nature is not just limited to birds. Just because I photograph mainly birds, does not mean that I know nothing about the fauna and flora of a tropical rainforest, don't be too presumptuous. FYI, I have lived in the eastern part of Brunei in the Temburong District for a couple of years, being in and out of the jungle and knows it darn pretty well.



    Again being presumptuous, go see the write-up that goes with many of my posts in the World of Nature Forum. What is Caption only?

    BTW, I can only see 2 posting of pictures from you so far, 1 IR flowers and 1 IR macro and I must say without much meaningful educational caption there, so please walk the talk, I know talking is cheap.

    Enough said.
    Ha! Ha! Ha! Well say! Before i want to say! Control ! High blood liao

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    Default Re: PUB wants volunteer photogs for macritchie res.

    Quote Originally Posted by chngpe01
    Being a passion is one thing and being exploited is another. For volunteer organisation like SPCA, Noah's Ark Animal Sanctuary or organisation that does not have revenue, I not only give my photography services and time but also contribute $. Here is one example of my photography works for SPCA (only photography by me, not art work, design etc)
    Why should we provide FREE service for the gahmen, as affectionately named by espn? I think that is only justifiable in our mods case. My standpoint is final!

  13. #53
    Senior Member oracle0711's Avatar
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    Default Re: PUB wants volunteer photogs for MacRitchie Res.

    Regardless of cause and nature of work, volunteer more often than not are always being taken for granted and abuse. Simply because the services rendered are free and there is always no lacking in new volunteers as newbies are dying for the opportunity to do something that is considered as a proper or official assignment.

    It's very sad that this is getting more and more frequent in Singapore. I wonder how many photographers would be left standing if every organization goes for volunteers (as over the many of such events they organized and giving the standing terms and conditions, they would accumulating tonnes and tonnes of photographs for future use or reuse).

    Apparently the countries in U.S., Europe and even Australia are more appreciate of photography as it's often look upon as creative work and the people who paid for photography services truly appreciate the amount of work that goes behind each assignment.

    Having said all this, to volunteer or not depends on each individual but I stand by the fact that even as a volunteer, their service and works should always be respected, appreciated and give due credit in the right perspective.

    Good luck to those who volunteer and to those whose livelihood depends on photography.

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    Default Re: PUB wants volunteer photogs for MacRitchie Res.

    i'd volunteer for a charity or non profit organisation if i v the time and means to.. maybe not as a photog..coz i cmi..

    but for an income generating corporation... no way man..

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    Default Re: PUB wants volunteer photogs for MacRitchie Res.

    Quote Originally Posted by oracle0711
    Regardless of cause and nature of work, volunteer more often than not are always being taken for granted and abuse. Simply because the services rendered are free and there is always no lacking in new volunteers as newbies are dying for the opportunity to do something that is considered as a proper or official assignment.
    If volunteers are routinely abused, there won't be any volunteers.

    Volunteering is not about about providing a "service for free" to undermine the market. It is about doing something for society because one feels its a worthy cause. The alternative is to leave every aspect of society to the nanny ("gahmen") and then whine about being a nanny state and not being allowed freedom. A society without volunteerism is society that people don't care about and that is doomed to failure.

    Apparently the countries in U.S., Europe and even Australia are more appreciate of photography as it's often look upon as creative work and the people who paid for photography services truly appreciate the amount of work that goes behind each assignment.
    I don't want to judge on appreciation, but volunteerism is very common in the US, partially stemming from the belief that the local communities can solve their own problems better on their own rather than relying on interference from the federal government.

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    Default Re: PUB wants volunteer photogs for MacRitchie Res.

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleWolf
    If volunteers are routinely abused, there won't be any volunteers.

    Volunteering is not about about providing a "service for free" to undermine the market. It is about doing something for society because one feels its a worthy cause. The alternative is to leave every aspect of society to the nanny ("gahmen") and then whine about being a nanny state and not being allowed freedom. A society without volunteerism is society that people don't care about and that is doomed to failure.



    I don't want to judge on appreciation, but volunteerism is very common in the US, partially stemming from the belief that the local communities can solve their own problems better on their own rather than relying on interference from the federal government.
    To your points..

    If volunteers are abused... they'll quit.. but there will always be new idealistic volunteers...

    volunteering and solving problems within a community stays within the community.. but not when it's organised by the government or related...

    Food for thought for u.. no offense intended...

  17. #57
    Senior Member oracle0711's Avatar
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    Default Re: PUB wants volunteer photogs for MacRitchie Res.

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleWolf
    If volunteers are routinely abused, there won't be any volunteers.

    Volunteering is not about about providing a "service for free" to undermine the market. It is about doing something for society because one feels its a worthy cause. The alternative is to leave every aspect of society to the nanny ("gahmen") and then whine about being a nanny state and not being allowed freedom. A society without volunteerism is society that people don't care about and that is doomed to failure.
    Your statement looks at volunteerism from a macro social responsibility which I have no problem in agreeing that it is a good cause and by contributing to society, it in turns bring about good benefits to those who receive, which in most cases, our cause of volunteering for the society to benefit the less privilege.

    However, my posting has nothing to do with why one should or should not volunteer photography services. I have believe that this is up to individual and a subjective manner. I am looking more at the objectives of the organizers who put together such a big event and asking for volunteers to contribute images for corporate usage and with stipulated conditions on usage and ownership. I question on how often the works of all those who have contributed are being recognized and appreciated.

  18. #58
    Senior Member oracle0711's Avatar
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    Default Re: PUB wants volunteer photogs for MacRitchie Res.

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleWolf
    I don't want to judge on appreciation, but volunteerism is very common in the US, partially stemming from the belief that the local communities can solve their own problems better on their own rather than relying on interference from the federal government.
    Again I am not disagreeing on the fact that volunteer work exists and is very common in the US. In fact, it is common in almost everywhere in the world.

    I am only looking at how society (organizations) value photography and their understanding of the amount of work being put behind the scene and therefore, their belief in paying for good photography work and services of the photographers and his/her team - comparing this with our own society in Singapore and probably in our SE Asia region.

  19. #59

    Default Re: PUB wants volunteer photogs for MacRitchie Res.

    That's funny.. Only private organisations can ask for volunteers? Not government or government related organisations?

    Why the distinction? Because they can pay? Well, most private organisations can pay as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashleyy
    volunteering and solving problems within a community stays within the community.. but not when it's organised by the government or related...

    Food for thought for u.. no offense intended...

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    Default Re: PUB wants volunteer photogs for MacRitchie Res.

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong
    That's funny.. Only private organisations can ask for volunteers? Not government or government related organisations?

    Why the distinction? Because they can pay? Well, most private organisations can pay as well.
    Nope, since when I say that only private organisation can ask???
    Do read properly can?... anyone can ask... it's up to the individuals to accept or not.

    Personally I feel that volunteering is dependent on the nature or work involve and the professionalism of work too... Naturally the ones who are more inline to ask for volunteering should be the charity organisations and some non-profit organisations like SPCA, etc

    SPCA have always asked for volunteers to help take care of the cats and dogs, etc in their care... Which seems perfectly fine and I doubt any photographers will complain..

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