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Thread: Which camera I should get..

  1. #21
    Moderator Octarine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which camera I should get..

    Quote Originally Posted by tyubhunhg View Post
    But I thought Micro 4/3 lenses don't fit APS-C cameras either? Is it possible for it to fit both DSLR and M43?
    Yes, that's all photographer's dream: changing lenses and bodies freely. But all camera manufacturer's interests is the opposite: protecting their business and making it as hard as possible for any third party to come in.
    There are adapters in the market and some lenses can be changed to a different mount. With most adapters comes a loss of functionality, auto focus being the first one that's gone. Depending on camera, lens and adapter, other functions can be affected as well: aperture control, exposure metering and missing exif data in the image. Depends on your usage whether this makes any difference to you.
    You can also check for third party lens makers (Sigma, Tamron etc), some of their lenses are even better than the original models. As long as you use recent bodies and lenses you won't run into the compatibility issues that are described occasionally.
    EOS

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Which camera I should get..

    I would be fine to buy a used camera, but I can't find good quality or high shutter count cameras online, anywhere; so I'm getting a new one.
    I just took a look at a few of the best M43 cameras too, but it seems like they are about the same price as DSLR cameras, that seem to be better than M43.. I would prefer to be using a DSLR as my main though; maybe I'll get a M43 in the future, as a backup camera? Maybe I could get used to the DSLR first, then get a M43?

    Also, as I've stated earlier, I'm getting this pair of lenses because it is part of a twin lens kit; I understand that it isn't the best, and that's why I'm getting a Tamron 150-600mm lens as well.

    And I'll be checking the sale at Harvey Norman today, and I'll hopefully be able to test out the 80D and D7200 to figure out which I prefer, and also to maybe look at the prices there. I understand that the sales probably mean the quality may not be the best, but I guess I could try: I mean, isn't Harvey Norman a good place?

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Which camera I should get..

    Quote Originally Posted by Octarine View Post
    Yes, that's all photographer's dream: changing lenses and bodies freely. But all camera manufacturer's interests is the opposite: protecting their business and making it as hard as possible for any third party to come in.
    There are adapters in the market and some lenses can be changed to a different mount. With most adapters comes a loss of functionality, auto focus being the first one that's gone. Depending on camera, lens and adapter, other functions can be affected as well: aperture control, exposure metering and missing exif data in the image. Depends on your usage whether this makes any difference to you.
    You can also check for third party lens makers (Sigma, Tamron etc), some of their lenses are even better than the original models. As long as you use recent bodies and lenses you won't run into the compatibility issues that are described occasionally.
    Haha, I guess it isn't that simple huh? I thought just getting the adapter meant that I could freely switch between the different brands and mounts.. I presume that means I'll have to get a separate set for M43 if I'll get it. I still haven't considered whether I should get a M43 yet.. I dont't really want to give up photo quality just for distance..
    Normal mirrorless/digital cameras don't work as well do they?

    EDIT: Despite what was said earlier about sales, I maybe thinking of getting a Fujifilm F850 for $100+, just in case I run out of space or something on my main camera. Don't think it would work as well, but would it be good enough?
    Last edited by tyubhunhg; 5th August 2017 at 01:16 PM.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Which camera I should get..

    I think TS will be confused by all the advices by now.This topic is very technical as it is but what is the objective of TS? Here is what I think:

    1. If TS' objective is to cut his teeth for birding then even a used M43 system will do as evidenced from the photo gallery of M43 forum.Plus the fact that a crop factor of 2X makes a 75-300mm = 600mm at the long end without a teleconvertor.But still he must choose one having the same criteria as before for birding.

    2. If image quality is only for web page then it does not matter what size sensor the camera is equipped with.Basic science of physics point to sharper results when it comes to sensor size, FF being the best and apsc as a compromise.Note that all this will be apparent when the photo is printed or in print vs webpage or viewed using 27in. monitor.

    3. Image quality related to 2. above.As Nikon is known for contrasty images and it seems for this type of photography canon 80D takes a design leaf from nikon making 80D similar as a result from lab tests both use a similar camera software to process jpegs so much so that both have the contrast halos if image is magnified.This is a result of cramming more pixels onto apsc sensor.
    As explained because pixel size is smaller than FF, each pixel well or bucket when fill with more light/photons simply overflows to surrounding pixels causing surrounding pixels to take on more light and hence like a lamp overlighting the area it is placed. Also take into account that both cameras do not have AA filter (anti aliasing, also for M43) so image is sharp but have moire effects in certain photographic scenes like repeating lines or patern.

    4. Opinions on D7200...he should read history of 7000 series starting with D7000. Anyway here is another opinion,plus other tips by expert:

    https://photographylife.com/dumbing-...fe-photography

    5. Both 80D and D7000 autofocus systems are derived from their professional
    big brothers EOS1 series and D3 onwards respectively.Here is the 45 crosspoints of canon EOS1D mk4 and what it can do but not sure if it is copied wholesale to 80D:

    http://cpn.canon-europe.com/files/pr...V_guide_en.pdf

    6. TTP? Techniques,Tactics and practice ,easier said than done.Anyway here are tips for BIF (birds in flight) very challenging that will be helpful.


    http://mikescamerablog.com/totw-birds-in-flight/

    http://www.digitalbirdphotography.com/8.10.html

    7. Lastly there are advantages going M43...as 2X crop factor and there are adapters for vintage manual lenses there is a vast selection of 300mm or 400mm primes and zooms to try.Of course the keep rate is small...haha but fun?

    8. Traditionally birders use canon 7D and now 7D mk2 for high frame rates.
    D7000 series have been around longer so more experiences by birders.I wish TS
    a fruitful excercise in choosing the right camera.I sympathise with him.Power to him!
    Last edited by one eye jack; 5th August 2017 at 01:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Which camera I should get..

    I just returned from the Expo fair, and I didn't see any 150-600mm lens, neither for Tamron nor for Sigma. I didn't ask the salesperson as I automatically assumed that they were not for sale there.
    However what I did see were Tamron 200-500mm and Sigma 150-500mm ones. All DSLR Lenses are at 50% off

    Do any of you think they are just as good as the 600mm, or should I enquire about the availability of them tomorrow?

  6. #26
    Moderator Octarine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which camera I should get..

    I don't own them, but in such a case I would check with the many review websites and compare the test results. If lenses are sold off at 50% it usually means they were sitting on shelf for too long or the next version is coming out soon.
    EOS

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    Default Re: Which camera I should get..

    That is true, but I don't think I would really mind that as I'm just starting up. I could build up in the future..

    Also, do you think I should be getting the 80D from the fair tomorrow or get the cheaper one online?
    I mean, the one online does not have a warranty and is from Hong Kong; I've been seeing some bad reviews of Lazada online so I don't really know which to choose.

    The prices at the fair today are: $1649 (Body), $1849 (18-55), $2049 (18-135), $2099 (18-200) with $200 rebate
    If there is the 150-600, I'd get the 135, but if not, which should I get?

    Thanks!

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Which camera I should get..

    one eye jack: I apologise for not getting back to you; CS kept blocking my replies because of the links. But here's my reply:

    1. I would love to gain some experience before I actually start photographing, but I guess I would still prefer to start off with a DSLR which I guess would be starting midway; I could try to learn along the way.

    2. I'm going for image quality not for putting up on a webpage, nor for selling the photos which may be what some photogs do to earn extra income; rather, I would like a good image quality because then the reflection of what I see onto what I photograph/keep is more similar and thus has more value?

    3. As stated, I would really love good quality photos so I can keep the photos, so I guess a larger sensor size will be a lot better than a small one ie. FF > APS-C > M43. However, I am unable to afford really good FF cameras as of now, so I would prefer getting the second best (?) which is the APS-C. Also, I don't think I'll be taking any pictures that will give me moire effects; I haven't really taken any DSLR photos, so I guess I'll take the risk of a no AA filter?

    4. Woah I guess you're right. Maybe the 80D actually is better than the D7200.. I guess I'll get that then. Of course, I welcome any other suggestions.

    5. The pictures do look rather clear, but most of them are about sports.. I'm sure birds can go much faster than the average human can in any of the sports there? Would that still work on faster moving animals? Especially when the focus points are probably going to move a lot?

    6. Those are some great tips! I'll definitely revisit them after I get my camera.. Here I was thinking that the BIFs are going to be really hard; I mean, they're going to fly really fast and it would be really hard to get it into the frame..

    7. I mean, yeah, there are definitely advantages to a M43 camera, but as stated on this thread previously, adapters will remove some good aspects of the photo; I don't really want that.. And if we were to compare the best of both types of cameras, I'm rather positive that the DSLRs still hold a steady advantage (?) If I were to start off with a M43, I'd probably still have to change to DSLRs as I (hopefully) progress in my photography skills, to capture better and clearer pictures. This would probably mean that I'd have to abandon all my M43 gear, and I wouldn't like that..
    I do consider, as already stated, the M43 cameras as a backup for my main DSLR though. (Though that would be out of budget ATM)

    8. I did consider those cameras when I first started scouting for cameras, but I rejected them due to their high costs. I'd like to keep the cost of the camera to under $2000, if possible. I mean, they're definitely good, but my budget won't allow it.

    Again, I would like to say that this community has really been helpful in helping me narrow down my choices of cameras, and later to decide exactly which brand and model I'd buy. It's a really great community and I'd try to give back to it as soon as I get better in my own photography. Thanks so much!

  9. #29

    Default Re: Which camera I should get..

    Nothing wrong with starting with DSLR, there's still an advantage especially using an optical viewfinder for tracking wildlife (though mirrorless systems are catching up)

    Also nothing wrong with wanting to go for image quality, good to get your techniques right first. You can get away with a slightly blurred image or cropping heavily to post online, but it is a worthwhile investment to get your skills up.

    The article one eye jack shared compares Nikon D7200 to Canon 7D Mark II which is an unfair comparision. At that time of writing, Nikon has not released their flagship APSC camera the D500 for a more equal comparison. As I've mentioned, both 80D and D7200 should a good job for your needs that are within your budget. More important is which one handles better in your hands and which interface you like more

    The problem with the fairs is the limited choices and usually they sell at recommended retail prices. From the reviews I've read the Tamron 200-500 and Sigma 150-500 are older lenses and the image quality is not that good at the longer end which is the most important for wildlife. If you can afford it I'll say go straight for the Tamron or Sigma 150-600s, or Nikon has it's 200-500f5.6.

    If you really want to go budget can get a basic telephoto like the Canon 55-250mm IS STM or Nikon 55-200/55-300DX lenses first. They're light, relatively cheap (probably less than 300 on the 2nd hand market). The Canon 75-300 on offer is probably the old version III lens which does not have image stabiliser. However if you're serious about wildlife, don't mind the weight and have the budget go straight for the 150-600s.

    And do check out the recommended camera shops, they will likely give you better prices and lens selection with local warranty. Shops like TK Foto, Cathay Photo, SLR Revolution, MS Color etc, I'm not affiliated to any of them. You can email/pm/facebook message them for a quote and compare at home first

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    Default Re: Which camera I should get..

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  11. #31
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    Default Re: Which camera I should get..

    Quote Originally Posted by tyubhunhg View Post

    7. I mean, yeah, there are definitely advantages to a M43 camera, but as stated on this thread previously, adapters will remove some good aspects of the photo; I don't really want that.. And if we were to compare the best of both types of cameras, I'm rather positive that the DSLRs still hold a steady advantage (?) If I were to start off with a M43, I'd probably still have to change to DSLRs as I (hopefully) progress in my photography skills, to capture better and clearer pictures. This would probably mean that I'd have to abandon all my M43 gear, and I wouldn't like that..
    I do consider, as already stated, the M43 cameras as a backup for my main DSLR though. (Though that would be out of budget ATM)
    Not trying to add to the confusion nor talk negatively about dslr but just a point to say that I move from dslr to M43 and not regretting a bit. Other than noise issues due to high iso, the M43 has matured enough and is capable in its own league to do what sports and wildlife photographers want to do. Of course, the DSLR are equally capable and better in their own sense. One last thing, do not use m43 as your backup if you are using a dslr or a different system. Try to use the same brand but different model as your backup. Why? With a dSLR and a M43, you will have to maintain 2 different set of lenses and other accessories such as batteries, flash, etc with the exception of tripod and storage cards.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Which camera I should get..

    Quote Originally Posted by thoongeng View Post
    The article one eye jack shared compares Nikon D7200 to Canon 7D Mark II which is an unfair comparision. At that time of writing, Nikon has not released their flagship APSC camera the D500 for a more equal comparison. As I've mentioned, both 80D and D7200 should a good job for your needs that are within your budget. More important is which one handles better in your hands and which interface you like more
    I don't think there was any link that compares Nikon D7200 to Canon 7D mk2.Earlier I did mention D7500 and D500 that can aslo be considered but as TS has clarified that these models are out of his budget.

    Nowhere did I imply that Nikon D7200 is not suitable for birding.I base on specs alone as ergonomics
    is not an issue because suitability for the task of shooting birds is.If given the choice between
    Canon 80D and nikon D7200 then 80D is more camera for the money.Why?
    1. Nikon D7200 autofocus system has remained unchanged since D7100 which was introduced in 2013.\While D7200 was voted best enthusiast camera in 2015 technology marches on hence D7500 was introduced earlier this year in Sg.Again TS said D7500 is out of his budget.

    2. Alhough D7200 has 51 focus points only 15 are crosspoints vs 45 (total) for canon 80D.The nikon D500 has a whopping 153 focuspoints of which 99 are crosspoints! 3 times more then canon 80D.Nikon D500 main rival is canon 7D mk.2 so comparison of D500 vs canon 80D is also not fair!

    3. Canon 80D has a n articulated lcd screen and touch control whereas D7200 lcd screen is fixed.

    There are also better video features in 80D which makes it an all rounded camera for the price.
    For the same money one is getting more camera period.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Which camera I should get..

    Just go down to any recommended camera shop and molest every camera... u will find one you love it. Even we tell you which is better but doesnt mean you will like it
    NikonD800E Nikon 24mm f1.8g;70-200 F2.8 E
    My flickr : http://www.flickr.com/photos/racingmyheart/

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Which camera I should get..

    Yeah, I wanted to go for the 600mm lens before I saw the 500mm ones at the IT Fair, but now that the fair is over, I guess it doesn't matter now.. But I looked online on Courts and Harvey Norman's websites, and they don't seem to sell the 600mm lenses; I also looked at Best Denki at the store itself and they only sold up to 300mm, which wouldn't be too ideal for wildlife photography, would it?

    And yes, I'll definitely be going for the 600mm lens first; as I stated, I would really love for better quality photos that probably wouldn't be achievable with 300mm lenses, unless I start with a M43, of course. I don't think that the lenses will be so out-of-budget.

    I'll definitely go check out those shops you mentioned this National Day holiday! I guess I thought that only the big shops would be best, never really thought of the smaller shops.

    Thanks a lot again!

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    Default Re: Which camera I should get..

    Haha, oops! I thought there were adapters that wouldn't affect image quality, so I thought I could use the same lenses XD I guess I could have done more research

    As I stated too, I would prefer DSLRs since for the same price, it does, I guess, offer some better images and specs.. Not too sure though.
    Also, do you think maybe you could recommend some gimbal heads for tripods at around $250; I found a Benro IS05 for $65.. Or maybe I should try balancing the prices as previously mentioned? I couldn't find any gimbal heads under $300..
    (Do any of you think that the IS05 is worth it to get? It seems rather cheap and lightweight for a tripod that can support 4kg, and go up to 150cm.)

    Thanks!
    Last edited by tyubhunhg; 7th August 2017 at 09:34 PM.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Which camera I should get..

    Quote Originally Posted by one eye jack View Post
    I don't think there was any link that compares Nikon D7200 to Canon 7D mk2.Earlier I did mention D7500 and D500 that can aslo be considered but as TS has clarified that these models are out of his budget.

    Nowhere did I imply that Nikon D7200 is not suitable for birding.I base on specs alone as ergonomics
    is not an issue because suitability for the task of shooting birds is.If given the choice between
    Canon 80D and nikon D7200 then 80D is more camera for the money.Why?
    1. Nikon D7200 autofocus system has remained unchanged since D7100 which was introduced in 2013.\While D7200 was voted best enthusiast camera in 2015 technology marches on hence D7500 was introduced earlier this year in Sg.Again TS said D7500 is out of his budget.

    2. Alhough D7200 has 51 focus points only 15 are crosspoints vs 45 (total) for canon 80D.The nikon D500 has a whopping 153 focuspoints of which 99 are crosspoints! 3 times more then canon 80D.Nikon D500 main rival is canon 7D mk.2 so comparison of D500 vs canon 80D is also not fair!

    3. Canon 80D has a n articulated lcd screen and touch control whereas D7200 lcd screen is fixed.

    There are also better video features in 80D which makes it an all rounded camera for the price.
    For the same money one is getting more camera period.
    Thanks again for replying to this thread! Really appreciate it!
    Anyway, I guess considering all this support you guys have shown for the 80D, I guess I'll confirm to buy it? It does seem more worth it for it's price.


    Thanks!

    Also, I did go down to the Harvey Norman fair where there was some time when I could try out the cameras, but they weren't selling Nikon cameras there, so I didn't really try it

  17. #37

    Default Re: Which camera I should get..

    Quote Originally Posted by one eye jack View Post
    I don't think there was any link that compares Nikon D7200 to Canon 7D mk2.Earlier I did mention D7500 and D500 that can aslo be considered but as TS has clarified that these models are out of his budget.
    From the article you shared (https://photographylife.com/dumbing-...fe-photography), I copy it's first paragraph here where the comparison was made:
    "With the introduction of the D7200, Nikon yet again ignored the desires of wildlife photographers. They didn’t shrink the buffer like they did with the D7100 (in fact they gave it a welcome increase), but they retained the 17% frame rate slashing that started with the D7100 (in comparison to its predecessor the D7000). Folks hoping Nikon would answer Canon’s release of the 10fps 7D Mark II are certainly disappointed. There are two things Nikon doesn’t seem to get about wildlife photography. First, wildlife photographers don’t want to pick either a DX or FX body to shoot with, we want one of each that will work together as a system – an FX body for great low-light capability and a DX option when we need extra reach. Both circumstances come up on an almost daily basis for the wildlife photographer. The second thing Nikon doesn’t get is that wildlife photography is no longer a pursuit reserved only for rich hobbyists."


    Quote Originally Posted by one eye jack View Post
    Nowhere did I imply that Nikon D7200 is not suitable for birding.I base on specs alone as ergonomics
    is not an issue because suitability for the task of shooting birds is.If given the choice between
    Canon 80D and nikon D7200 then 80D is more camera for the money.Why?
    1. Nikon D7200 autofocus system has remained unchanged since D7100 which was introduced in 2013.\While D7200 was voted best enthusiast camera in 2015 technology marches on hence D7500 was introduced earlier this year in Sg.Again TS said D7500 is out of his budget.

    2. Alhough D7200 has 51 focus points only 15 are crosspoints vs 45 (total) for canon 80D.The nikon D500 has a whopping 153 focuspoints of which 99 are crosspoints! 3 times more then canon 80D.Nikon D500 main rival is canon 7D mk.2 so comparison of D500 vs canon 80D is also not fair!

    3. Canon 80D has a n articulated lcd screen and touch control whereas D7200 lcd screen is fixed.

    There are also better video features in 80D which makes it an all rounded camera for the price.
    For the same money one is getting more camera period.
    Good to compare specifications on paper, I'm just sharing my own knowledge learning from experienced birders. If you talk to the birders you will know what autofocus mode they use, which autofocus points they use, whether they use the Live View / LCD for tracking birds. Main advantage of Canon 80D vs Nikon D7200 for birders is the slightly faster 7fps and bigger buffer. As important are actually the lenses and support system, since TS is getting the Tamron 150-600mm then no difference between the brands. And I have no experience with gimbals so I shall not comment though I remember this review by mod DD123 of a 'poor man's gimbal':
    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1510916

    Since TS has made a decision, and as I've mentioned TS won't go wrong with either choice, I shall not add anymore. Happy shopping and shooting
    Last edited by thoongeng; 8th August 2017 at 02:10 AM. Reason: edited mistake in gimbal review link

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    Default Re: Which camera I should get..

    Yeah, I havent really talked to many birders yet; at most one or two. Some affairs currently kept me rather busy so I can't really find time out.

    I've kinda decided on the camera, but not really the lens yet. However, after some reading up on both the Tamron G1 and the Sigma, I'm leaning more towards the Sigma as of now..

    That gimbal look really nice too, but wouldn't the lack of movement hinder wildlife photography? Not too sure but thats what I thought.. Where could I be able to get that or any gimbal though; I'm not sure if online shops like Lazada or Shopee are reliable, and my visit to Parisilk and Cathay Photo today was not very rewarding ie. I couldn't find any gimbal heads, only others like ball heads, which as stated before, seemed to be not a good idea for a large lens..
    Any ideas where I could get one?

    I did find the cameras and lenses I wanted and look at the prices though

    Thanks a lot; All the best in your photography too!

  19. #39

    Default Re: Which camera I should get..

    Quote Originally Posted by tyubhunhg View Post
    That gimbal look really nice too, but wouldn't the lack of movement hinder wildlife photography? Not too sure but thats what I thought.. Where could I be able to get that or any gimbal though; I'm not sure if online shops like Lazada or Shopee are reliable, and my visit to Parisilk and Cathay Photo today was not very rewarding ie. I couldn't find any gimbal heads, only others like ball heads, which as stated before, seemed to be not a good idea for a large lens..
    Any ideas where I could get one?
    Don't think it can't move, just that the movement is not smooth. The other 'cheaper' gimbal some talk about is the Jobu Junior 3 though it probably will set you back by more than $400... Not too sure where the birders get their stuff, any birders here can help? Heh...

    The lower end 150-600s are theoretically hand-holdable, so you might want to try that first. Or get some support from a monopod with a tilt-head / ballhead first then save up for a good gimbal.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Which camera I should get..

    Quote Originally Posted by tyubhunhg View Post
    Where could I be able to get that or any gimbal though; I'm not sure if online shops like Lazada or Shopee are reliable, and my visit to Parisilk and Cathay Photo today was not very rewarding ie. I couldn't find any gimbal heads, only others like ball heads, which as stated before, seemed to be not a good idea for a large lens..
    Any ideas where I could get one?
    Birding community is small here so it does not make sense for retailers to stock them because price is not cheap. Lazada has 2 listings for poor man's gimbal whose sellers are from HK but I think you can get better price at Aliexpress but note that lowest price can be a scam so look at sellers record of how many sold.Also there are variations of lens plate like swiss-acra quick release or standard tripod ones.

    FYI this poor man's gimbal is a copy of Wimberly WH200 which is an "industry standard".It also has no ball bearings but just sleeve types and if it's not good enough what is? Read the reviews of wimberly.There are 2 types of gimbals ,full gimbal "U" shaped or "J" type of which majority are "J" types.Body is aluminium which china produces 50% of world output!

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