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Thread: The Degrading Photographic Market

  1. #21
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Degrading Photographic Market

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorite
    Take a stand from an unbiased view. I really think there is no right or wrong. But do you think this is right from your stand and your principles?

    Do you think people's actions might just worsen the photographic market here?
    Or do you think it is just "competition"?
    Heheh I think these issues are not going away and have the tendency of popping up in regular intervals.

    I don't want to talk about the quality of other photographers. I let someone else to be the judge and jury of photographic standard.

    If someone could come up with same or better quality than me but at a lower price. I say good luck to him. He may operate with lower cost base and perhaps hold a well-paid day job.

    If someone could pick up a dslr today and become a commercial photographer tomorrow, I say to him. He may be born with the gift of photographic talent without having to go through 10 or 15 years of learning and shooting like some of us do.

    The situation is not as simple as it appears. There are many forces at play in the dynamics of commercial photography. Look at 10 years later, will those with cut-price service still all be hanging around shooting enthusiatically?

    If photography is not financially rewarding to those who are in it either professionally or partime won't we be better off selling barbecue pork?

    There always be a large number of new entrants attracted by the bright light and there are even more drop-outs from the scene. However there will be a core of professional photographers who provide the consistency and stability in the photographic trade. What we worry about e.g the weekend amateur wedding photography market or competitions with average prize money but unreasonal copyrights demands could perhaps be things at the periphery.

    That's all folks.
    Last edited by Sion; 9th December 2005 at 08:48 PM.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: The Degrading Photographic Market

    Let's get real...this is SG. Photography is not an appreciative market here. As well, anyone can claim to be a pro with high end equipment. ho-hum, tt's life, enjoy shooting
    I lup SG, but SG don't love me...

  3. #23
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    Default Re: The Degrading Photographic Market

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorite
    To think of it, Singapore's photographic market is quite screwed compared to USA.
    To be fair, one should compare Singapore to a country or economy of similar size.

    1. People trying to offer photographic services way below market rate
    If it's not a few but many, then their price IS the market rate ...

    2. Photographic competitions with dismal prizes (compared to other countries)
    How many competitions are there in Singapore, and how does this compare to other cities of comparable size?

    With some competitions in other countries, participants have to _pay_ hefty entrance fees. After a number of accepted entries, they are awarded some fake diploma. There's a few "competition photographers", whose hobby is taking part in photo competitions, and there's the majority of amateur photographers who couldn't care less about competition. Professionals probably don't have the time to waste on competitions, unless it is an extremely reputed one which could help their business.

    Competitions are from my POV dangerous for the development of artistic skills/style. To succeed in a competition, you have to cater for the taste of the judges - not your own.

    3. Photographic competitions that do not give photographers their copyrights for the image even though they didnt win and some even do not credit the photographers when using their images.
    I think you've got it backwards: it's not competitions that may or may not "give" the copyright to you. If at all, it is YOU who decides to transfer the copyright TO the competition. In other words, if you sign away your rights by participating in a competition, it's not the competition's fault. It is your own fault.

    Do you think people's actions might just worsen the photographic market here?
    I think just snapping photos doesn't require a lot of skills, and the market rate reflects this. On the other hand, if you're good (and that's a big "if"), I'm sure people are willing to pay accordingly.
    Last edited by LittleWolf; 9th December 2005 at 09:10 PM.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: The Degrading Photographic Market

    Quote Originally Posted by JediForce4ever
    translate please
    Wan value, wan cheap, wan big boobs. Or so, the literal translation goes.
    "Wonders of the Human Mind. Unfathomable to the highest degree."

  5. #25
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    Default Re: The Degrading Photographic Market

    If u'd ever talk about photography to non-photographers, they would think that, "Press button only."

    Its the same mentality of 'press button only' that made most ppl think that photography is just 'press button' affair. To add on, the ever falling prices of (D)SLRs plus the ignorance on "buy Pro = Pro" and the marketing tactics of companies & salesmen in an attempt to get sales (lets face it, its inevitable, companies can't survive on enthusiasts market) that 'Pro camera good, can take Pro pictures'.

    Whilst awareness of Arts is raising, it remains confined to the younger, more receptive generation. Older folks who spent the turmulous years in our founding years may not be receptive or as appreciative like the younger generations.

    We can't really take our relatively young state (barely 3 generations old) and compare it to countries like USA or even Venice. Imagine if USA was a new state now, full of shooting cowboys, like the Wild Wild West, u tell the cowboys to appreciate stuff like photography, they will hold the same mentality, the 2nd generations would experience living in a better environment and so on and so on.

    Unfortunately, not all humans are absolutely receptive to changes. Just as we can expect later generations to be more appreciative of the Arts, we can't expect earlier generations to open up just like that.

    Perhaps in time, we can expect more ppl to be more appreciative of this artform. Our later generations.
    "Wonders of the Human Mind. Unfathomable to the highest degree."

  6. #26

    Default Re: The Degrading Photographic Market

    can't stop ppl doing cheap or free, so the best way is increase price like i did, so never need to compete with low end but with high end.
    Eat breath LIVERPOOL!!!

  7. #27

    Default Re: The Degrading Photographic Market

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    Well, it is the mindset of don't like don't join which leads to such terms being entrenched as the standard and in the end, everyone's doing it.
    Yes, that may be true to a certain extend.

    But look at it from another angle..if enough people stop participating, then those organisers might finally sit up and take notice.

  8. #28
    Moderator ortega's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Degrading Photographic Market

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbesyeo
    Yes, that may be true to a certain extend.

    But look at it from another angle..if enough people stop participating, then those organisers might finally sit up and take notice.
    yes the demand for cheap/free photography is there, but when the supply runs dry...

    so let us CSers start by doing our part

  9. #29
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    Default Re: The Degrading Photographic Market

    I read with interest and have the following comments. This is not directed at anyone, but just my opinion to Question 1.

    It seems that many are afraid of the change that may well throw many 'pros' out of business or a deep cut in their income. It seems that many are afraid to accept the fact that cheap and better digital cameras (DSLR or otherwise) are here to stay and they help those who are less skilled to take reasonably good photos that rival the pros' works (technically at least). Let's embrace it, with the digital revolution, this change is irreversible.

    Photography is no more an exclusive, expensive hobby and it should not be. Its a exciting activity where anyone can pursue and enjoy.

    The demand for cheap photography will always be there, and why not? Not every business/company/client/wedding couple demands high end results. Very often, they just need something simple and presentable. This is where many newbies can fit the bill, to learn, to improve, to experience. The intention is probably not to compete, to lower price, to degrade. There are many high salaried people out there who are not dependent on photography for a living and are willling to shoot for free or a small fee. Are they therefore desperate for assignments (money) or challenges (opportunities)? Are these people expected to comply with the call for higher rates, boycotting competitions etc?

    Not generalising, but I have seen many 'non-pros' and newbies' works far surpassing the standards of the so-called pros. I have seen newbies very passionate, hungry to learn and willing to take instructions. On the contrary, I have seen pros very complacent, arrogant and finding excuses for poor results.

    Who are the pros anyway? Pro would mean that one has some kind of professional qualification/accreditation/recognition. Shooting for a living or has many years of shooting does not necessary make one a pro.

    Finally, I don't think the situation is worsen, in fact it has flourished and become more diversed.

  10. #30

    Default Re: The Degrading Photographic Market

    Quote Originally Posted by sign1206
    It seems that many are afraid of the change that may well throw many 'pros' out of business or a deep cut in their income. It seems that many are afraid to accept the fact that cheap and better digital cameras (DSLR or otherwise) are here to stay and they help those who are less skilled to take reasonably good photos that rival the pros' works (technically at least). Let's embrace it, with the digital revolution, this change is irreversible.

    The camera is just a tool, toopid......

    If you shoot like crap, you shoot like crap, no camera or post processing can save you.

    With the so-called digital revolution, the crap becomes much more instantaneous, more immediate for everyone to see! I think you're just confusing the surge in noise for increased signal.........
    Last edited by kahheng; 10th December 2005 at 11:43 PM.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: The Degrading Photographic Market

    Quote Originally Posted by kahheng
    If you shoot like crap, you shoot like crap, no camera or post processing can save you.
    Maybe this is the key to why some "professionals" whine about the spoilt market, whereas others seem to have no problems.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: The Degrading Photographic Market

    I noticed that some touched on the topic as who is a 'photographer' and whose not.

    err.... so am I considered a photographer?

  13. #33

    Default Re: The Degrading Photographic Market

    Let my offer my point of view as the point of a customer and a amateur photographer.

    I just did my wedding recently so went to NZ + locally to take my wedding shots and hired a photographer to do my actual day shots.

    Let's put it this way, I went back to the same location for my local wedding shoot and tried to duplicate the shots with my DSLR, but somehow it was just yucks...

    People are still willing to pay good money for good photographers. It is NOT easy to be a photographer BUT the DSLR has made a LOT of people more interested in Photography. Lets say out of these people only 1% is good enough to be pro, but 1% of 1000 is still 10 times more than 1% of 100. In the end of the day, the supply of talented photographers will increase, so price should drop right? Even if price does not drop, the no. of customers per photographer will drop.

    I also agree with the statement about pros not having a consistent standard. My wedding photographer did a FABULOUS job (IMHO) for me but I saw some of his shots of another customer quite different. And that customer also did not like the shots... so sometimes, photography is quite a heng suay kind of thing. You pay money but the product is not guaranteed... like buying toto...

  14. #34
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Degrading Photographic Market

    Quote Originally Posted by meepokman
    I noticed that some touched on the topic as who is a 'photographer' and whose not.

    err.... so am I considered a photographer?
    That depends on what camera do you own.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: The Degrading Photographic Market

    BTW hor.... USA(at least where i am living) is also having the same Issues... 1 reason its not that bad yet is because over here there are certification you can take.... i.e. community college certificates... Some consumers actually asks for certifications just in case they meet a trigger happy guy using a digital camera. On the other hand, there are studios here that copy glamour shots except they are the cheapo version... they pay photographers at real low rates(on a good day, which is very rare, a photographer can take home 100 bucks and photographer still have to use their own camera)... yet there are tons of people(I don't even call them photographers) in their waiting list to be photographer. Just FYI the customer usually pays $50 for a 8R pic. As for wedding photography, some people shoot weddings for as low as 200 dollars for an entire day. Of course weddings here are simpler... usually church and dinner party. Bottom line is that this problem is not in singapore only.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: The Degrading Photographic Market

    Quote Originally Posted by Sion
    That depends on what camera do you own.
    so if i use an old FM2 does that mean I'm a 'lesser photographer' compared to someone using D2x?

  17. #37

    Default Re: The Degrading Photographic Market

    Quote Originally Posted by meepokman
    so if i use an old FM2 does that mean I'm a 'lesser photographer' compared to someone using D2x?
    if u use old FM2, u are a 'morer photographer'

  18. #38
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    Default Re: The Degrading Photographic Market

    as mentioned by a CSer above, there is no fairness in biz. i guess thats that. fullstop. let nature change the course.

    I feel the underlying root of the prob is...supply>demand..but at least that shows that the photog world is large locally...! have more more more gatherings! =)


    Douglas

  19. #39
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Degrading Photographic Market

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobman
    if u use old FM2, u are a 'morer photographer'
    So if someone uses Holga, he is morest?

  20. #40

    Default Re: The Degrading Photographic Market

    Quote Originally Posted by zcf
    supply > demand
    well said...

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