Canon EF-S... corporate mistake???

[crackpot]

Forgive me if this has been discussed already, but I can't help but ponder the role of EF-S lenses in Canon's big picture strategy.... will this line be phased out or expanded upon? I know Canon likes to talk about the 'niche' for 350D/20D users etc, but as technology advances and FF comes to the mainstream and becomes more affordable (within 2-3 yrs very easily in my view), what role if any will EF-S have?

Any input from all you users and folks in the know out there?

[solarii]

Ha you're right this has been mentioned many times.

Contrary to what you think FF sensors aren't likely to become mainstream any time soon, just as dSLRs will always cater to a niche group of photo enthusiasts (PROs no need to mention lah!) rather than a mainstream market. Their manufacturing costs are still significantly higher and the price gap betweeen budget dSLRs and those higher-end FF models is still very significant. Furthermore FF sensors require the use of superior lens (read: L Lenses) since the larger sensor area means that the camera is much less forgiving of the short-comings of consumer grade lenses.

EF-S lenses and other lenses designed for APS sized sensors are generally smaller and usually possess greater zoom range then those made for FF SLRs. They are also cheaper than their counterparts made for FF sensors, and provide a cost-effective solution for photographers on a budget. Besides the budget-mid range segment makes up the most significant portion of dSLRs users so there's no shortage of people who can use such lenses.

In the long run EF-S lenses may be phased out, but not anytime soon. Camera manufacturers are unlikely to bridge the gap between budget dSLRs and the high end FF sensor dSLRs for economic reasons. Rather, they'll continue to cultivate both markets since this:
1) encourages upgrading which generates continued revenue
2) will keep the price of entry-level dSLRs low, encouraging entry to the market
3) will keep the price of FF sensor SLRs up = higher profit margins, less need to compromise to cut costs.

Just my opinion.

[mpenza]

I don't want full frame cos I'm more of a teleshooter and I like to use inexpensive and lightweight lenses that will give better quality on APS sized sensors The advent of EF-S and other "small digital" lenses (also can't be used on FF and 1.3x cams effectively) allows users to enjoy wide-angle and super wide capabilities.

[Ah Pao]

1.6x sensors are here to stay, that's for sure. I don't think many people out there know exactly what this "crop factor" (or the marketing folks like to put it, "focal length multiplier") actually does, and hence manufacturers can get away with smaller sensors without causing much fuss from the consumer side.

As the above posters have mentioned, FF DSLRs is now becoming a niche instead of going mainstream. Wonder if they will make an EF-S L lens?

[Voyage]

ha ha ha

You know how many 20D / 350D / 300D / 10D has been sold worldwide ?

It will be big mistake not having enough EFS!

Canon is clever, one step ahead of you as they plan for two or even 3 size sensor in the future!

Which ever you want, you'll have it, try other brands! only one size had-to-fit-all !

Canon

[shinken]

10D, D60, D30, cannot use EF-S lens, I suspect which is why I they had been discontinued.
Currently only 300D, 350D and 20D can mount EF-S lens. If Canon is to abandon the EF-S lens mount, only 3 models of users will be affected, which is why they would be force to do it very soon, if they ever do it at all. Alternatively, they might start a group of cameras which sticks to the 1.6x crop, while the rest of the models abandon the APS. Of course, the ideal scenario for 300D, 350D and 20D and EF-S lens owners is, FF remains a niche for the pro-series, while all others remained as 1.6x crop.

For 1.6x crop fans, and existing EF-S lens owners, I hope you're right that 1.6x crop is here to stay too. Canon had hinted that eventually, all Canon DSLRs would be full frame. 5D had been hailed as the first of such a transition. Of course, hints are hints. Whether or not FF will remain as a niche, given its price now, or whether it will be mainstream, remains to be seen. Remember before 5D was announced and how 20Ds were dumped? I remember there were more than 7 sets of 20Ds for sale around the same time, very very low-priced. After the price of 5D was made known, the resale price of 20D bounced back to normal. The phenomenon was common in the US resale market as well. That was even before people knew what 5D could do. They merely knew it's FF. Now, if FF is priced at 20D's or 350D's range, would it really be a niche? Given a choice of a 1.6x 30D and a FF 30D, same price, would the FF be a niche? Try to refrain from letting perceptions arising from current interests cloud the judgement.

The very optimistic sales of the "over-priced" EOS 5D might just encourage the move of twin digit series to move FF as well. Other competitors had been aggressively surveying worldwide demands for FF DSLRs, although the results of such surveys are kept confidential. Everyone is watching Canon's sales figure very closely, especially that of EOS 5D. All these have implications on whether FF will be mainstream, or APS sensors. Doesn't matter what manufacturers had pledged. Market forces drive the decisions.

[sriram]

Who cares? I will never buy an EF-S lens costing more than 100$. 5 yrs down the line they may decide to dump 1.6x and move everything to FF, you never know. Then all your EF-S lenses are junk once you upgrade to that $900 FF DSLR. OTOH the EF mount is here to stay as far as we can see.. much safer option.

[ricohflex]

it is transition stage

full frame will become main stream once Canon, Nikon, Minolta have digi SLRs that are full frame. By that time, if you have a non-full frame digi SLR, you may feel the urge to "upgrade". Because everybody else has one.

It is like black and white TV. When colour TV is common, you want to get one too.

I believe by 2008, that will happen. Major brands all have full frame SLRs.

They will make some 1.6x digitalSLRs for those who shoot long tele. But believe that EFS will be phased out.

[user111]

in summary

dont buy EFS

because it is ideologically abominable

just like DX

[hazmee]

In short, just get whatever that works for you right now. EF-S is here to stay as long as there's a market for it and people are buying newer camera bodies. Full-frame or not, should not just be deciding factor when buying your equipment. It should be what works best overall for you, in terms of the quality, ergonomics, price and shooting style. Everyone wants everything cheap, Canon just wants your money. Spend your money wisely. Get what you need.

[solarii]

Originally Posted by shinken ... Now, if FF is priced at 20D's or 350D's range, would it really be a niche? Given a choice of a 1.6x 30D and a FF 30D, same price, would the FF be a niche? Try to refrain from letting perceptions arising from current interests cloud the judgement.

Haha I doubt any of the posters' judgements are clouded by current interests. I personally own only 1 EF-S Lens, the 18-55mm, and I couldn't really be bothered whether or not they stop support of the EF-S lens format. I doubt any photograper owns more than 2 or 3 lens which cater to APS sized sensors only anyway.

Rather I'm basing my opinions on the fact that its in all manufacturer's interest not to make high-end products readily available to the masses at bargain prices, when they can encourage gradual upgrading by making each market segment distinct.

[fWord]

Even if it is a corporate mistake, I'm happy Canon chose to go this way. Without my 350D and the kit lens, I'd still be stuck in a rut somewhere. Of course, if I had the cash, I would go full-frame, without a question. But for people like myself who are on a budget, or tele shooters, the current batch of 1.6X crop factor DSLRs and their companion EF-S lenses give us plenty of options.

Although FF cameras are set to become mainstream (almost definitely, although time-dependent), the EF-S lenses have given the budget DSLRs a place of their own in the world of photography that is essentially complete. The only thing that's still a rarity for 1.6X crops seems to be a lens that would yield a true fisheye effect, but even that should become a reality in time to come.

When FF DSLRs get cheaper, so will the 1.6X crops...at that time, DSLR photography would truly become cheap enough for 'consumers'.

[Beerboy]

....they are coming out with new lenses for the EF-S line.. The "Rebel" & "Elan" class of digital cameras will continue to use the 1.6 format. Hence the reason to keep the EF-S mount around.

Believe me, the next 20D like camera will have the 1,6 format, and will be a pretty nice camera too..

JP

[studiolabmaster]

yap,think efs len may be a mistake,although this len17-85 is usm is quite good,i still sell away and stick back to the lousy len sigma 18-125mm.
Quality and focusing speed wise is still far from 17-85.But its cheap and good coverage!!!
Owner of 18-125 for the third time,buy sell buy sell and again buy!!!
But 17-85 is good!if only the price is below 500,can reconsider...
NO WAR PLS>
I THINK EFS IS A POOR INVENTION.PURPOSE FROM CANON IS TO SQUEEZE MORE JUICE FROM US>>>>>>>>>>>

[maritimus831]

Originally Posted by mpenza I don't want full frame cos I'm more of a teleshooter and I like to use inexpensive and lightweight lenses that will give better quality on APS sized sensors The advent of EF-S and other "small digital" lenses (also can't be used on FF and 1.3x cams effectively) allows users to enjoy wide-angle and super wide capabilities.

agree with u...
i am more of a sports shooter, so i like the fact that i can buy a shorter (cheaper) lens and the 1.6x applies, so i essentially have a teleconverter without the cons of a teleconverter (slower f-stop).
also, full frame really exposes a cheap lens. very hard to get good results from a budget lens on a FF body.

[mpenza]

for e.g. FF shooters can shoot with a 300/2.8L. I'll shoot with a 200/2.8L that costs and weighs significantly less and get the same image!

[spartacus.ret]

Well, technically if you call the EF-S lenses by Canon a mistake, then what about DX lenses by Nikon, DC by Sigma and DiII by Tamron..

When theres a demand there will be a supply..
Whilst ppl still want to shoot with crop-factored cameras.. then there is no reason why Canon (and the other companies) would refuse to comply to their wishes..

[sriram]

Companies like sigma, etc are only concerned with making and selling more lenses, why should they care about the life of EF-S or DX? They can crank out lenses quite fast and will produce whatever sells today. Next year it may be obsolete and they will be ready with the next generation by then. Just see how fast Sigma came up with four-thirds lenses. See how rapidly they come up with new iterations of their lenses. I've lost track of how many variations of the 24/28-70 they have.

OTOH the responsibility for EF-S/DX lies solely with the mfgr. If they screw up and the mount is not viable, then they are in trouble. Sigma / Tamron will simply switch to another mount and continue to churn out more lenses.

[spartacus.ret]

Originally Posted by sriram Companies like sigma, etc are only concerned with making and selling more lenses, why should they care about the life of EF-S or DX? They can crank out lenses quite fast and will produce whatever sells today. Next year it may be obsolete and they will be ready with the next generation by then. Just see how fast Sigma came up with four-thirds lenses. See how rapidly they come up with new iterations of their lenses. I've lost track of how many variations of the 24/28-70 they have. OTOH the responsibility for EF-S/DX lies solely with the mfgr. If they screw up and the mount is not viable, then they are in trouble. Sigma / Tamron will simply switch to another mount and continue to churn out more lenses.

Point taken.

But... why is Nikon then also going into DX lenses? Nikon is also considered a big player next to Canon and just because Canon goes and 'make the mistake' by making EF-S doesnt mean that Nikon would have to follow. Especially since some ppl here think that the APS lenses will die soon enough

[Watcher]

Originally Posted by spartacus.ret Point taken. But... why is Nikon then also going into DX lenses? Nikon is also considered a big player next to Canon and just because Canon goes and 'make the mistake' by making EF-S doesnt mean that Nikon would have to follow. Especially since some ppl here think that the APS lenses will die soon enough

For Nikon, it makes perfect sense because:

1. All DSLR with its brand is at a fixed 1.5x crop since the D1 back in 1999. So all previous DSLR can all use the lenses.
2. Currently, all on sale Nikon DSLR have 1.5x crop. This includes from the cheapest D50, all the way to highest end D2X. So all the current bodies consistently can use any one of the DX lenses. I just need to bring 1 set of lenses for any number of DSLR bodies. Canon OTOH, has a minority of the number of models of DSLR on sale that can use EF-S. Only 20D and 350D, while the 1DMkIIn, 1DsMkII and 5D (3 out of 5) cannot. So in this case, if you have a DSLR like 1DMkIIn, 1DsMkII or 5D and a backup body of 20D or 350D, you need to bring another 1 or 2 lenses to have the same cover and then, need to switch the lenses when in use.
3. A few DX lenses are of pro-level quality based on the images and features in it like constant max aperture (12-24/4, 17-55/2.8), VR (18-200). The No EF-S lens so far has been given the pro-grade 'L' designation...

For Nikon, it has been a steady, consistent moving forward of their DSLR strategy (like a waltz dancer), while Canon looks a lot like a cha-cha dancer on the dance floor.