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Thread: Big Fuss about YOUR RIGHTS in photog compeition

  1. #81

    Default Re: Big Fuss about YOUR RIGHTS in photog compeition

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin
    it seems to me that you refuse to see from the other side as well, so i don't want to waste time convincing you.
    i did not say i find the t&c fair at all. i was just pointing out that this has been mentioned over and over again that you guys should make it a sticky. if the newbies refuse to read the stickies that so be it.

    someone mentioned that organizers still have competitions with unfair t&c despite the repeated arguments in cs. this tells me that you guys are arguing in wrong place. maybe its time to write to the newspaper forums.

    the other points i mentioned was that organizations are free to come up with their own t&c. perhaps if you find the t&c unfair you should take it up with them. all talk no action also no use yes?

    so you are trying to convince the wrong person.

  2. #82
    Senior Member poohbear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Big Fuss about YOUR RIGHTS in photog compeition

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin
    sure np, if you need your lens back just message me
    no prob. better than sitting in dry cab.

  3. #83

    Default Re: Big Fuss about YOUR RIGHTS in photog compeition

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin
    help you complete the verse ...

    朽木不可雕也
    粪土之墙不可圬也

    wei...can please translate into english?

  4. #84
    Senior Member poohbear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Big Fuss about YOUR RIGHTS in photog compeition

    Quote Originally Posted by madmacs
    wei...can please translate into english?
    direct translation ....

    old wood cannot be craved
    sh*t wall cannot be dirtied.

  5. #85

    Default Re: Big Fuss about YOUR RIGHTS in photog compeition

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin
    chill? heh ... yah man, instead of wasting time here explaining i'm going out for a shoot. pb want to join in?
    ya lah...we got more important things in life to worry about

    enjoy your shoot

  6. #86

    Default Re: Big Fuss about YOUR RIGHTS in photog compeition

    Quote Originally Posted by poohbear
    direct translation ....

    old wood cannot be craved
    sh*t wall cannot be dirtied.
    hehe...thanks. and your original line leh?

    edit: nvm...realized your original line is there liao
    Last edited by madmacs; 4th December 2005 at 02:40 PM.

  7. #87
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    Default Re: Big Fuss about YOUR RIGHTS in photog compeition

    Quote Originally Posted by azul123
    Spare a thought to those who make a living out of photography, not only is their market shrinking, their supplements (like taking part in competitions) are paying next to nothing.
    When the electronics revolution obsoleted the need for a lot of precision mechanics, workers complained.

    When cars became popular, blacksmiths and horse carriage cab operators complained.

    When manufacturing moved from Europe to cheap labour contries like Singapore, workers complained.

    Now that Singapore isn't that cheap anymore and more companies operate in China, people complain.

    And when people give away their photos for free, there's a big commotion about "spoiling the market".

    I thought it was a Singapore politician who said: "Noone owes you a living."

    Of course, one can try to implement protectionist measures. Western history has shown they are not only expensive, but take the pressure to adapt to market realities from companies/workers and render the economy non-competitive.

    So instead of complaining, adapt.

    Imagine it to be your own bread and butter issue, you too would be feeling hapless
    Just about any profession is constantly evolving. A career that was the ultimate in stability and prosperity years ago may be a dead end today. On the other hand, new professions come into existence. My career chances may have looked much brighter a decade or two ago, but it can't be helped.

    it's an avenue for them to voice out on what the scene has become, cheap, commercialised and feeling exploited.
    If professional, i.e. _commercial_ photographers complain about the value of their _commercial_ services dwindling, that hardly speaks of commercialisation. They are not whining about commercialisation, as their existence depends on commercialisation. They are whining that it's someone else who makes money instead of them.

  8. #88

    Default Re: Big Fuss about YOUR RIGHTS in photog compeition

    Quote Originally Posted by rusty
    In short, it is a natural trait of human beings. If nobody makes noise, everyone assumes everything is ok.

    If nobody raised the issue of shooting outside the esplanade (smart aleck security guard dissallowing us to shoot), the security guard would have thought that photographing the esplanade is not allowed, as mentioned in one of the threads in kopitiam.

    Eventually if we raise our concerns in a civil yet unified voice, organisations will learn to hear about it, media gets to talk about it, and slowly things will change.

    That is why we should not keep quiet when things are not right.

    My sentiments.
    BRAVO.

    LittleWolf, the difference here is that photographers are stabbing their own kind to death, instead of an outside force. Of course we have to adapt, for example if one day 3D Animation becomes a cheaper and better alternative than Photography.
    But when us photographers devalue our ownselves due to a lack of understanding of the cost of photography, then we are the stupid ones.
    Exploitation is not something I think we should accept easily.

    For an idea of how much photography can be worth, a friend of mine who works in a government agency related that they had just paid a photographer $29,000 for about 30 photos, for use in a corporate book.
    My friend in the US just got US$42,000 for a single photo which was used in magazines and billboards for advertising a website (bluefly.com)

    None of them have to hand their rights over. Photographers license their images, and make additional money off the usage period. But they rarely sell over the rights.

    So just understand, companies are raping your ass when they pretend to make you feel good by saying YOU ARE A WINNER!
    It would be nice to have companies who actually believe in supporting the photography scene. I know of many competitions where the renumeration is respectable and they don't need to ask for your rights.

  9. #89

    Default Re: Big Fuss about YOUR RIGHTS in photog compeition

    Wah we have some heated arguments here.

    Its true there are points on both sides. Some have clearly mentioned the point of continued complaining, or rather warning of the bad t&cs.

    But whateva it is, a competition usually wants the photography for use in something related to that event or their company. Usually they will put this down to tell the photographer, they have the rights to use the photo in relation to the event, publicity or otherwise. I have not seen any disrupts between photographer and company before, because the winner jolly well understood that his photos will be used. Period.

    Perhaps if someone is really worried bout granting exclusive rights, they shld clarify with the organisers, and not continous outright slamming and discouraging people to join.

    And to put in simply, if you think such competitions are exploiting you, i'm sure you have good intentions, but the participants are good enough to decide on themselves whether or not to participate, and bloody hell they sure can read isnt it.

    I have no say on the prize money, people can complain all they want

    And of course, lets say you have a wedding, someone comes to take the shots, and the rights of the photographs? If there is no event, there is no photos. Credit this to the organisers please.

    of course some of you will argue about this point, i'll leave it here. But then again, i'm pretty sure everyone can fend for themselves. Dont take part if you dont feel justified. If its that bad, less ppl will take part in their competitions. And for those newbies, i'm sure if they are gd enough to win it, thats gd, and his not judge on that only photo he has lost his rights to. Its his skill thats gd. I'm sure with competitions or not he can produce such shots again

    And i'm sad to see people not contributing at all to this thread and posting nonsense. Shame on you

  10. #90
    Moderator ortega's Avatar
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    Default Re: Big Fuss about YOUR RIGHTS in photog compeition

    if you don't like it then don't read...

    i bring it up time and again to make enough noise so that the future generation of photographers will reap what i sow. if i manage pass the knowledge to one person then i have one more person who understands, and this goes on and on until we no longer see these unfair T&Cs.

    it is called progress.

    this is so typically singaporean, kwai kwai listen to the powers that be.
    if you want change then stand up and be heard.
    without a voice the status quo will remain.

    remember NKF?

  11. #91
    Senior Member azul123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Big Fuss about YOUR RIGHTS in photog compeition

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleWolf
    When the electronics revolution obsoleted the need for a lot of precision mechanics, workers complained.

    When cars became popular, blacksmiths and horse carriage cab operators complained.

    When manufacturing moved from Europe to cheap labour contries like Singapore, workers complained.

    Now that Singapore isn't that cheap anymore and more companies operate in China, people complain.

    And when people give away their photos for free, there's a big commotion about "spoiling the market".

    I thought it was a Singapore politician who said: "Noone owes you a living."

    Of course, one can try to implement protectionist measures. Western history has shown they are not only expensive, but take the pressure to adapt to market realities from companies/workers and render the economy non-competitive.

    So instead of complaining, adapt.
    Quote Originally Posted by azul123
    Spare a thought to those who make a living out of photography, not only is their market shrinking, their supplements (like taking part in competitions) are paying next to nothing.
    How does the above equates me advocating protectionist measures? did I advocate competition for the pros only?

    You're right things have changed and we have to change with the times, can't keep paying next to nothing and expect pros and good photographers to all fall into line, I applaud those who voice out for the photographers and to those who refused to submit to unfavorable terms.

    ../azul123
    Last edited by azul123; 4th December 2005 at 06:53 PM.

  12. #92
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    Default Re: Big Fuss about YOUR RIGHTS in photog compeition

    Quote Originally Posted by mattlock
    LittleWolf, the difference here is that photographers are stabbing their own kind to death, instead of an outside force.
    But aren't photographers a very diverse group? Is it justified to talk about "their own kind"? Aren't the cheap industrial workers in e.g. China stabbing "their own kind" in countries with higher cost of labour to death?

    As a professional photographer, isn't there a lot of competition? Aren't you trying to force others out of business before they do the same to you? Isn't that "stabbing your own kind", too?

    But when us photographers devalue our ownselves due to a lack of understanding of the cost of photography, then we are the stupid ones.
    Exploitation is not something I think we should accept easily.
    Noone dictates the prices you take for your services - you can charge what you think they are worth. If there is cheaper competition, that's tough - but as you can set your own prices, so can they. The idea of sticking to certain price standards "ourselves" just smacks of cartels/price fixing.

    For an idea of how much photography can be worth, ...
    Well, _can_. If you have THE killer photo, you wouldn't submit it to some obscure photo competition in the first place, would you? One should also not overlook how little photography can be worth. It might be more informative to look at the median commercial value of photos.

    It would be nice to have companies who actually believe in supporting the photography scene.
    Most companies are there to make a profit, not to support a "scene" (unless this translates into profits). Very few have any anthroposophic traits (shareholders might even sue if they feel money is wasted).

    I know of many competitions where the renumeration is respectable and they don't need to ask for your rights.
    Where is the problem then? Take part in these competitions then, if you like their terms, and ignore the others. It's not as if missing the "XY neighbourhood supermarket 'my favorite pet' photo competition" would harm anyone's reputation.

  13. #93
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    Default Re: Big Fuss about YOUR RIGHTS in photog compeition

    Quote Originally Posted by azul123
    How does the above equates me advocating protectionist measures? did I advocate competition for the pros only?
    No, sorry if it came across as such. But that's the other option, and some people seem to be in favor of it.

    I applaud those who voice out for the photographers and to those who refused to submit to unfavorable terms.
    Well, "refuse to submit" sounds a bit like an act of civil disobedience against some authority who forces you to do things. But unless you initiate it yourself, you won't take part in any competition. "Refusing to submit" is a trivial thing, and I would guess about 99.9% of photographers do it by default anyway as they have better things to do than taking part in such competitions.

  14. #94
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    Default Re: Big Fuss about YOUR RIGHTS in photog compeition

    Quote Originally Posted by madmacs
    you cannot force organizations to change their t&c. it is their competition. i just think you are fighting the wrong battle.
    It is not forcing. It is asking. By raising awareness more will be encouraged to ask and not just blindly comply. But right now, the 'battle' is not yet against the organisers. There is still a lot of convincing needed for our fellow photographers.

  15. #95

    Default Re: Big Fuss about YOUR RIGHTS in photog compeition

    Quote Originally Posted by ortega
    if you don't like it then don't read...

    i bring it up time and again to make enough noise so that the future generation of photographers will reap what i sow. if i manage pass the knowledge to one person then i have one more person who understands, and this goes on and on until we no longer see these unfair T&Cs.

    it is called progress.

    this is so typically singaporean, kwai kwai listen to the powers that be.
    if you want change then stand up and be heard.
    without a voice the status quo will remain.

    remember NKF?

    How not to see when its practically in almost every other competitions I see under the events sections?

    But doesnt matter. Each of you have your own opinion. AND your own rights to it.

    Let the smart people move on shall we?

    This thread has served its purpose.

  16. #96

    Default Re: Big Fuss about YOUR RIGHTS in photog compeition

    Quote Originally Posted by foxtwo
    It is not forcing. It is asking. By raising awareness more will be encouraged to ask and not just blindly comply. But right now, the 'battle' is not yet against the organisers. There is still a lot of convincing needed for our fellow photographers.

    just curious. has anyone actually asked the organizers about the fairness of the t&c? what was their response?

    i think by now most of the photographers in cs are probably aware of such situations. how many are convinced i dont know. some maybe convinced but will take part anyway. acutally i wonder how many of those who participate are also cs members.

  17. #97

    Default Re: Big Fuss about YOUR RIGHTS in photog compeition

    Quote Originally Posted by Adzz
    The way you reply really speaks about yourself.

    thank you.

  18. #98
    Member Papilio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Big Fuss about YOUR RIGHTS in photog compeition

    Taken from a recent photo competition.

    6. The contestants agree to assign all intellectual property rights of the photos submitted to ***** and ***. As such, ***** and *** will have full rights to the pictures usage for any above and below-the-line marketing activities and any other activities. In addition, winners may be requested to participate in public relations events tied to the campaign to generate press coverage of the contest and the accessories range. This may include, but not be limited to, quotes given for inclusion in press releases and press conferences, interviews, etc.

    Would these be considered 'unfair' T&C? Apparently over 7,000 entries were received.
    Last edited by Papilio; 4th December 2005 at 11:34 PM.

  19. #99
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    Default Re: Big Fuss about YOUR RIGHTS in photog compeition

    Quote Originally Posted by mattlock
    BRAVO.

    LittleWolf, the difference here is that photographers are stabbing their own kind to death, instead of an outside force. Of course we have to adapt, for example if one day 3D Animation becomes a cheaper and better alternative than Photography.
    But when us photographers devalue our ownselves due to a lack of understanding of the cost of photography, then we are the stupid ones.
    Exploitation is not something I think we should accept easily.

    For an idea of how much photography can be worth, a friend of mine who works in a government agency related that they had just paid a photographer $29,000 for about 30 photos, for use in a corporate book.
    My friend in the US just got US$42,000 for a single photo which was used in magazines and billboards for advertising a website (bluefly.com)

    None of them have to hand their rights over. Photographers license their images, and make additional money off the usage period. But they rarely sell over the rights.

    So just understand, companies are raping your ass when they pretend to make you feel good by saying YOU ARE A WINNER!
    It would be nice to have companies who actually believe in supporting the photography scene. I know of many competitions where the renumeration is respectable and they don't need to ask for your rights.



    DO NOT ever be resigned to being subject to unfair T&C ........ if u give up, only losers are the photographers and the winners are the Establishments

    Its very good to bring up issues with a photo competition's T&C............ this is a photo community that looks after the overall interests and rights of photographers............
    Last edited by ed9119; 4th December 2005 at 11:55 PM.

  20. #100
    Moderator ortega's Avatar
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    Default Re: Big Fuss about YOUR RIGHTS in photog compeition

    Quote Originally Posted by madmacs
    just curious. has anyone actually asked the organizers about the fairness of the t&c? what was their response?

    i think by now most of the photographers in cs are probably aware of such situations. how many are convinced i dont know. some maybe convinced but will take part anyway. acutally i wonder how many of those who participate are also cs members.
    I have asked and got nil response. but at least they know that someone asked.
    so got to get more people to ask the same question.

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