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Thread: It takes a Malaysian to stand up for Singapore photographers' rights

  1. #21
    Senior Member poohbear's Avatar
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    Default Re: It takes a Malaysian to stand up for Singapore photographers' rights

    Perhaps we forgotten abt the Yishun Mrt video footage already ? The fact is , terrorism is much closer to us than most singaporean thought. If the footage did not surfaced, thousand would've died at Yishun Mrt and Singapore would have been another headline on Gobal reports on terrorism .

    Let's put it this way , they have a job to do and that's keeping the commuters safe. I'm sure u guys know that singapore is on the top few to-hit list of the terrorist network worldwide. It only take one lucky terrorist to photo some place that can hid bomb and KABOOO ~! . Let da man do his job lah. Peace !

  2. #22
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    Default Re: It takes a Malaysian to stand up for Singapore photographers' rights

    just for info

    in peacetime military intelligence is very much active in this region. seemingly innocuous looking people taking pictures around public installations and vital installations could be plainclothes military intel or others from our neighbours. this is a fact which i know.

    so i understand all this officers are just doing the right thing by demanding the "offending" photog to stop and delete/hand over the film. so next time if anyone were to take pics in these places, do it discreetly and only you yourself know your intent in taking these pics...

    another thing is terrorism, which is very much in the news nowadays...so there goes.
    Last edited by adam72; 2nd December 2005 at 11:03 AM.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Virgo's Avatar
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    Default Re: It takes a Malaysian to stand up for Singapore photographers' rights

    A very interesting incident indeed!

    2 sides of the story. Firstly, I must salute Kenny for standing up for what he thinks is right. He has got every right to ask (nicely) for the necessary documents to be produced. If the 'law' states that strictly no photos in the MRT stations, then case close. However, it's the other way round.

    On the other hand, it's also the job of the officer to be vigilant on the public taking photos. I think the approach he used is not appropriate and tactful. Rather than 'demanding' for the photos to be deleted, he can ask nicely to check on Kenny's purpose, and may be ask for his personal details like IC or passport. I'm sure if one is innocent, they wouldn't mind having his/her details being taken down. May be some of us here will disagree, but if it's just a regulation for safety, I wouldn't mind really.

    As for Kenny, just tough luck that he run into a lousy officer who is not tactful enough. My sympathy goes to you Kenny!
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  4. #24

    Default Re: It takes a Malaysian to stand up for Singapore photographers' rights

    One thing I noticed in this forum is Photographers stating their "rights". Im pretty new to photography so I would really like to know. Do photographers especially if you carry a nice professional camera exempt you from all rules and are able to demand that Security Guards *** off and not bother you while you are engaged in taking some artistic photos?

    The funny thing is Im in the media industry and we have to ask permission everywhere we go even if we are just doing a site survey. We are professionals but we dont seem to be able to go state our "rights" and just snap away. Would that mean that me and my colleagues and thousands like us dont know our rights? Mmmmm maybe its time I started a movement! "Fight for your rights to take photos without permission" Maybe I would ask Jack Neo or Eric Khoo to be spokesman.

    Or perhaps Photographers can understand that

    1) We are being spied on by foreign military intelligence and at the same time we are spying on them too... You know that harmless blur clerk that you see at some embassy...? He or she might not be so blur if you get what I mean. Hence photo taking at vital installations are being monitored. Our MRT system is our transport lifeline and a photo analysis of it would provide data as to the best place to drop a bomb, of what size etc etc etc to achieve maximum damage. Such data are being collated by all governments of their neighbours. Giving a very safe and non sensitive example, during the Cold War, US and Soviet Union had already battle plans in place, where to hit, how to hit, what to use. Some of which were obtained from photos.

    2) We are a prime target for terrorists, able to make a hit on us would be a big boost to their morale and prestige. We are also a main supporter of USA giving them another reason for the continuted efforts to target us. Same reasoning as the Yishun Mrt Incident. We are being monitored by elements and just hope that our borders are secure enough to prevent any explosive devices from landing here. That is why we have heighten security now at all stations with random bag checks and Mrt Police, dont be surprised there are plain clothes operatives when there is intelligence of a possible strike. Just that we are not notified cos it will cause panic.

    3) How would you like it if someone just step into your shop and then started taking photos?? I mean if he asked for permission most of the time you might be curious and ask oh what for hah? And then you would say okay lor go ahead.... But if the fellow just walked in and then started snapping away wouldnt you get pissed off?

    Sometimes security guards and MRT staff might not communicate in the polite manner we hope they would but oh well isn't that our culture?? As some other posts have stated...our service standards are horrible! Most of these staff are middle age or retired senior citizens who don't give a hoot about courtesy. They might still believe in the old colonial thinking that Government official or security means they can shout at others which was true in the old days. But let and let live.... after all everyone is just working to make us a safe country to live in

  5. #25
    vince123123
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    Default Re: It takes a Malaysian to stand up for Singapore photographers' rights

    There are people in the media industry who also think that model releases are a part of Singapore laws, when it is highly doubtful if this is the case. Being in the media industry ALONE does not guarantee that what you are doing is absolutely correct - in fact, its sometimes the industry people who may have made a mistake and continue to perpetuate the mistake which leads the mistake to be taken up even by people outside the industry.

    That said, no one ever said that we don't have to ask for permission, just that no one has the right to demand for photos to be deleted. And no one also ever said to fight for your rights to take photos without permission - I'll not go into a blow by blow analysis of your long post, but generally, I think you MAY have misinterpreted the scope of the "rights" as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by centuryegg
    The funny thing is Im in the media industry and we have to ask permission everywhere we go even if we are just doing a site survey. We are professionals but we dont seem to be able to go state our "rights" and just snap away. Would that mean that me and my colleagues and thousands like us dont know our rights? Mmmmm maybe its time I started a movement! "Fight for your rights to take photos without permission" Maybe I would ask Jack Neo or Eric Khoo to be spokesman.
    Last edited by vince123123; 2nd December 2005 at 01:50 PM.

  6. #26

    Default Re: It takes a Malaysian to stand up for Singapore photographers' rights

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    There are people in the media industry who also think that model releases are a part of Singapore laws, when it is highly doubtful if this is the case. Being in the media industry ALONE does not guarantee that what you are doing is absolutely correct - in fact, its sometimes the industry people who may have made a mistake and continue to perpetuate the mistake which leads the mistake to be taken up even by people outside the industry.

    That said, no one ever said that we don't have to ask for permission, just that no one has the right to demand for photos to be deleted. And no one also ever said to fight for your rights to take photos without permission - I'll not go into a blow by blow analysis of your long post, but generally, I think you MAY have misinterpreted the scope of the "rights" as well.
    I never said that what we are doing is the guidelines or something that all must follow, if you read it carefully what it means is that there are procedures to be followed regardless of who you are or what you are.

    I have done government projects and when I need to shoot somewhere, we inform the management first, we inform them of our purpose, show documentation and then thank them. We dont just walk in, plant our camera and say GOVERnMENT BUSINESS and expect people to say "orhhhh okay government hah.. you carry on, no need to sign in your name."

    Im not personally against anyone. Just that I find it strange that I see local photographers very uptight about "rights", I dont see that happening with foreign photography forums. It's always the same story about some security guard or some train station official. I'm sure if one politely asked first may I take some pictures, Im a hobbyist and would like to take a photo because 1) your station is beautiful 2) I just like the station etc etc

    It's always a photographer who without asking for permission goes snapping away and when get approached and stopped by guards, come here and kick up a fuss about rights and everything. I'm not against photographers but please be realistic. There are rules to be followed and unless people want to create such a scene to the point that the management say enough is enough. OFFCIALLY BANNING ALL PHOTOGRAPHY in their premises which they have a RIGHT to do. then will there be again complaints about RIGHTS?

    Be polite and as I mentioned before in some other posts, it doesnt hurt to ask for permission. For all you know, you might be allowed free and easy access to areas normally thought to be off target and get some tips from the guards or staff about timing to get the best sunlight etc. That has happened to me before, I asked politely and not only was I allowed to film, I was told by the guard who happened to be a amateur photographer which area was best to be shot at what time.
    Last edited by centuryegg; 2nd December 2005 at 02:15 PM.

  7. #27
    vince123123
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    Default Re: It takes a Malaysian to stand up for Singapore photographers' rights

    Sounds good and true, and probably when you're a media professional the guards might be more amenable to your requests. Always good to ask first, but not always practicable

    For those amateurs here, could you advise on what to do if after asking, the guards say "no"? Perhaps they have tried and have faced "nos" so much that they just do it without asking - especially since the "no" is unjustified - perhaps.

    I wouldn't know, just my conjuecture, cos I don't shoot such things :P

    Quote Originally Posted by centuryegg
    I never said that what we are doing is the guidelines or something that all must follow, if you read it carefully what it means is that there are procedures to be followed regardless of who you are or what you are.

    I have done government projects and when I need to shoot somewhere, we inform the management first, we inform them of our purpose, show documentation and then thank them. We dont just walk in, plant our camera and say GOVERnMENT BUSINESS and expect people to say "orhhhh okay government hah.. you carry on, no need to sign in your name."

    Im not personally against anyone. Just that I find it strange that I see local photographers very uptight about "rights", I dont see that happening with foreign photography forums. It's always the same story about some security guard or some train station official. I'm sure if one politely asked first may I take some pictures, Im a hobbyist and would like to take a photo because 1) your station is beautiful 2) I just like the station etc etc

    It's always a photographer who without asking for permission goes snapping away and when get approached and stopped by guards, come here and kick up a fuss about rights and everything. I'm not against photographers but please be realistic. There are rules to be followed and unless people want to create such a scene to the point that the management say enough is enough. OFFCIALLY BANNING ALL PHOTOGRAPHY in their premises which they have a RIGHT to do. then will there be again complaints about RIGHTS?

    Be polite and as I mentioned before in some other posts, it doesnt hurt to ask for permission. For all you know, you might be allowed free and easy access to areas normally thought to be off target and get some tips from the guards or staff about timing to get the best sunlight etc. That has happened to me before, I asked politely and not only was I allowed to film, I was told by the guard who happened to be a amateur photographer which area was best to be shot at what time.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: It takes a Malaysian to stand up for Singapore photographers' rights

    Ask people from SMRT HQ.

    Reply: No photo taking in station and train. Want to take, write in and ask for permission.

  9. #29

    Default Re: It takes a Malaysian to stand up for Singapore photographers' rights

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    Sounds good and true, and probably when you're a media professional the guards might be more amenable to your requests. Always good to ask first, but not always practicable

    For those amateurs here, could you advise on what to do if after asking, the guards say "no"? Perhaps they have tried and have faced "nos" so much that they just do it without asking - especially since the "no" is unjustified - perhaps.

    I wouldn't know, just my conjuecture, cos I don't shoot such things :P

    I wish to first clarify that as professionals we are not given more leeway. In fact at times we are given more hassle as they want to know what we are using the footage for.

    Answering your question, if the guards say no, then I guess you will have to just walk away and try the higher managment if you really want to take the photos. However I do have one point to make, will not taking the photo create any losses for you in any way? If not then is arguing with the guards a matter of just not letting the matter go or just being difficult? Its not a matter of whether you are amatuer or professional, property belonging to others are govened by rules which are not to be broken just because you feel that its your right to do so as a photographer.

    Many photographers forget that public property is not so public when it belongs to an organisation. They do have the legal right to stop you from stepping in their premises. However instead of digging out laws and all why not just be amicable and just ask for permission instead of whining and whining about how rights are being stepped upon. Besides you are barking up the wrong tree with the guard who knows nothing and is only given one order. Stop any suspicious looking activity.

  10. #30

    Default Re: It takes a Malaysian to stand up for Singapore photographers' rights

    alot of photography location scouting I do, I don't ask for permission. I know I'm not breaking the law. I like Kenny Sia's mentality. show me the regulation and I'll follow it.
    asking permission and all is great but there's a great tradition in photography of going to extremes to get a photo. I'm sure photojournalists break rules on a regular basis.
    now, whether a person can force me to delete my photos even if I've done something that displeases them is questionable. so kudos to Kenny Sia for being a daring example.

    Quote Originally Posted by centuryegg
    I wish to first clarify that as professionals we are not given more leeway. In fact at times we are given more hassle as they want to know what we are using the footage for.

    Answering your question, if the guards say no, then I guess you will have to just walk away and try the higher managment if you really want to take the photos. However I do have one point to make, will not taking the photo create any losses for you in any way? If not then is arguing with the guards a matter of just not letting the matter go or just being difficult? Its not a matter of whether you are amatuer or professional, property belonging to others are govened by rules which are not to be broken just because you feel that its your right to do so as a photographer.

    Many photographers forget that public property is not so public when it belongs to an organisation. They do have the legal right to stop you from stepping in their premises. However instead of digging out laws and all why not just be amicable and just ask for permission instead of whining and whining about how rights are being stepped upon. Besides you are barking up the wrong tree with the guard who knows nothing and is only given one order. Stop any suspicious looking activity.
    Last edited by mattlock; 2nd December 2005 at 03:12 PM.

  11. #31

    Default Re: It takes a Malaysian to stand up for Singapore photographers' rights

    btw, I've been in new york a few years and late last year the MTA (new york subway) tried to enforce a photography ban in the subway. This was hotly contested by MANY people, many photographers rallied and protested
    It's not just a singapore thing so don't make it seem like that.

  12. #32

    Default Re: It takes a Malaysian to stand up for Singapore photographers' rights

    if I'm a terrosist, I will surely exploit this security weakness, since SMRT staff will be worried to approach me because I will threaten them with my rights and my blogs and all, and so I will have nobody stopping me from doing my bad things

    I hope to blow-up your family someday. After that, please start blogging and write complaints about why the authorities never saw such a thing, bla bla bla. I win both ways, dont you see? So please, stop the authorities with your rights and blogs, its a macho and proud thing to do. Please start today
    Last edited by michhy; 2nd December 2005 at 03:42 PM.

  13. #33
    Senior Member poohbear's Avatar
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    Default Re: It takes a Malaysian to stand up for Singapore photographers' rights

    Quote Originally Posted by michhy
    if I'm a terrosist, I will surely exploit this security weakness, since SMRT staff will be worried to approach me because I will threaten them with my rights and my blogs and all, and so I will have nobody stopping me from doing my bad things

    I hope to blow-up your family someday. After that, please start blogging and write complaints about why the authorities never saw such a thing, bla bla bla. I win both ways, dont you see? So please, stop the authorities with your rights and blogs, its a macho and proud thing to do. Please start today
    In a way .... nicely put across the idea ....

  14. #34
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    Default Re: It takes a Malaysian to stand up for Singapore photographers' rights

    Quote Originally Posted by michhy
    if I'm a terrosist, I will surely exploit this security weakness, since SMRT staff will be worried to approach me because I will threaten them with my rights and my blogs and all, and so I will have nobody stopping me from doing my bad things

    I hope to blow-up your family someday. After that, please start blogging and write complaints about why the authorities never saw such a thing, bla bla bla. I win both ways, dont you see? So please, stop the authorities with your rights and blogs, its a macho and proud thing to do. Please start today
    Quote Originally Posted by poohbear
    In a way .... nicely put across the idea ....
    yes i agree

  15. #35
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    Default Re: It takes a Malaysian to stand up for Singapore photographers' rights

    i got stopped on several occassions around
    mrt and lta premises, i don't like it.

    but i hate it when some northerners try to
    show off what they pull off here.

    worse when some MF singaporeans cheering him on.

    if i m in malaysia,
    if i m told not to do something by anyone in authority,
    i will honour him by listening to him.
    hey, i m a guest there,
    i was taught respect by my parents.
    that SOB, sorri, i mean motherless piece od sh*t
    don't deserve to step into the land i call home.

    jude

  16. #36
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    Default Re: It takes a Malaysian to stand up for Singapore photographers' rights

    Quote Originally Posted by judeseah
    i got stopped on several occassions around
    mrt and lta premises, i don't like it.

    but i hate it when some northerners try to
    show off what they pull off here.

    worse when some MF singaporeans cheering him on.

    if i m in malaysia,
    if i m told not to do something by anyone in authority,
    i will honour him by listening to him.
    hey, i m a guest there,
    i was taught respect by my parents.
    that SOB, sorri, i mean motherless piece od sh*t
    don't deserve to step into the land i call home.

    jude

    relax jude

    i got stopped at one particular MRT station so often that now the staff know me anyway they are friendly people and i am glad someone is watching out while the rest of us go about with our daily lives
    Last edited by eikin; 2nd December 2005 at 08:41 PM.

  17. #37

    Default Re: It takes a Malaysian to stand up for Singapore photographers' rights

    Quote Originally Posted by judeseah
    i got stopped on several occassions around
    mrt and lta premises, i don't like it.

    but i hate it when some northerners try to
    show off what they pull off here.

    worse when some MF singaporeans cheering him on.

    if i m in malaysia,
    if i m told not to do something by anyone in authority,
    i will honour him by listening to him.
    hey, i m a guest there,
    i was taught respect by my parents.
    that SOB, sorri, i mean motherless piece od sh*t
    don't deserve to step into the land i call home.

    jude
    Erm somehow I find that I am with you. Just that I find the way the supposedly Malaysian treated an officer of our beloved transit system rather offensive.

    Its almost like hes trying to above the "law", although haha, what he did is damn great if the officer is rather cocky in the first place. But its just the wrong person I supposed. I am sort of a nationalist, so thats just me.

  18. #38
    Senior Member poohbear's Avatar
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    Default Re: It takes a Malaysian to stand up for Singapore photographers' rights

    Quote Originally Posted by judeseah
    i got stopped on several occassions around
    mrt and lta premises, i don't like it.

    but i hate it when some northerners try to
    show off what they pull off here.

    worse when some MF singaporeans cheering him on.

    if i m in malaysia,
    if i m told not to do something by anyone in authority,
    i will honour him by listening to him.
    hey, i m a guest there,
    i was taught respect by my parents.
    that SOB, sorri, i mean motherless piece od sh*t
    don't deserve to step into the land i call home.

    jude
    Chill bro ....not need to be so agitated lah. End of the day, we all got work to do and the man is just trying to get his work done. Hope our friend from malaysia can be more understanding . Relax and peace ~!

  19. #39
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    Default Re: It takes a Malaysian to stand up for Singapore photographers' rights

    Quote Originally Posted by poohbear
    Chill bro ....not need to be so agitated lah. End of the day, we all got work to do and the man is just trying to get his work done. Hope our friend from malaysia can be more understanding . Relax and peace ~!
    bro pooh,

    i read that guy's post n thread,
    did u see wat he actually said?
    he does not like to be told wat to do!
    and those northerners saluting him for sticking one up at us?
    AND our own brethren cheering him on?
    to think i wasted close to 3 yrs trying to protect these _____!
    should hv just post a bond,
    dodge for 28yrs,
    give up the bloody citizenship,
    come back to visit parents and pay fine 5K.
    singapore is getting more n more less like home.

    btw, wat's that kenny's job?
    being an a*s?

    i m not angry,
    just very disappointed.

    jude

  20. #40
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    Default Re: It takes a Malaysian to stand up for Singapore photographers' rights

    Quote Originally Posted by judeseah
    bro pooh,

    i read that guy's post n thread,
    did u see wat he actually said?
    he does not like to be told wat to do!
    and those northerners saluting him for sticking one up at us?
    AND our own brethren cheering him on?
    to think i wasted close to 3 yrs trying to protect these _____!
    should hv just post a bond,
    dodge for 28yrs,
    give up the bloody citizenship,
    come back to visit parents and pay fine 5K.
    singapore is getting more n more less like home.

    btw, wat's that kenny's job?
    being an a*s?

    i m not angry,
    just very disappointed.

    jude

    i get disappointed too, but i know there are many others here who are feeling the same disappointment, changes take time

    at least behind all the complaints we know that when there's a real emergency we still have people willing to stand the test, rather than invest time on futile arguments

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