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Thread: Got customer like diz..... can vomit blood...

  1. #81

    Default Re: Got customer like diz..... can vomit blood...

    Quote Originally Posted by righton
    I know I am one of those pariah photogs you guys always complain about because of the lowly niche we cover, but I think clients have to respect that relationship at least. Because if they do not, why shud I?
    One of the reason why some photogs here strongly avocate a "standard" pricing for such markets is because there is always a lower price. And you can't beat 4 hrs of photography with free prints and CD for S$0.00. Since there's no "baseline" the market will not allocate budget for such services. How often you see couples have wedding banquets for 50% off the current market rates per table? Or why don't couples hold banquets in Kopitiam or Hawker centers if they are so tight in budget?

    Also, I'm against the way you "handled" the situation. While standing firm to your verbal agreement is to applaud for, getting into heated arguments and walking off (or it seems like running away) without a proper resolution or alternative does not contribute to the "professionalism" of conducting a business. Thus have reflected badly on the family's preception of photogs on the whole. It gives them the feeling that you are holding their pics ransom. Neither should you even threaten to delete their pics in the first place.

    These situations are part and parcel of growing up and getting experience, there will be many more, don't take this to heart. Cuz if "low cost" photogs exist, the market will definately seek for maximum values with minimum payouts, you'll be facing many more such customers as you stay in this market segment.
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  2. #82

    Default Re: Got customer like diz..... can vomit blood...

    Hahaha..
    Nice to be sticky...
    All the #@#%#$^#%@ words come out liao, no pt arguing, just leave.

    But sometimes, (we) must think why only (or mostly) the cheapo photographers get these types of attitudes.

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Got customer like diz..... can vomit blood...

    Just want to tell a similar experience I had many years ago.

    I was the official photographer for a couple's wedding banquet and the groom had gangster-style brothers and uncles. Fortunately I was not the party who received the gansgter treatment.

    Durring the bill-settling session after the banquet, the brothers and uncles (partially drunk) demanded for discounts from the restaurant manager. The manager politely refused, stating that they have already given a very good package deal for the couple. The brothers and uncles started threatening the manager with words like "why you don't give face" etc. In the middle of the "bargaining" process the manager discovered an accounting error on the restaurent's part which led to slight over-charging and declared it immediately.

    That gave the gangsters the fuel to fire up the whole situation. They started banging tables and shouted abuse at the manager despite his appologies. I heard things said in Mandarin like "If this happens in Hong Kong you are already chopped to death by now!"

    The mother of the groom tried everything she could to calm the agitated members of the family but they just ignored her. The rest of the family (ladies and youger people) were at a lost and just kept quiet. The shouting and table banging continued for almost 20 minutes and I wasn't sure if the manager finally gave them some discount or called the police, but the gangsters finally quiet down and left the groom alone to settle the payment.

    I was kind of tempted to photograph the confrontation but did not because of fear of being "chopped to death".....
    As complexity rises, precise statements lose meaning and meaningful statements lose precision.

  4. #84

    Default Re: Got customer like diz..... can vomit blood...

    Quote Originally Posted by righton
    Last week Friday I shot for a couple's ROM for $200 (4hrs + work) shooting from their home to ROM to post-ROM lunch at hotel.

    Many of the couple's friends and relatives turned up to support them.

    After everything, 460+ images from every imaginable angle and combination of friends/relatives were taken.

    Everyone left after the makan except the groom and bride and couple of their uncles settling bills.

    When come to my turn, one of the uncle instead of paying me, asked for all images to be submitted with negatives and 4R images to be accompanied inside little photo albums.

    I told Uncle that I shoot with a digital SLR so there are no negatives and that I will send over a CD of all images.

    Wah laozzzz!!!! This is when it got ugly Uncle said "Wah Lao, you spend nothing on film or developing, give us only a CD and we have to print ourselves..... like this lah, $100 can or not?"

    I said sorry padre no way..... its $200 and you'll get all the images in a CD

    I think the groom's older generation from uneducated background and gangsters. The other Uncle then came in and "Ah Tee ay..... lu simi blah blah blah...... knnbcb jiao kia...... blah blah blah"

    I just cut the whole situation short, hopped into a cab with the 2 uncles hot on my heels........ literally.

    Anyway in the cab i just boiled in sheer anger that I am treated like this.......... I mean wtf, limpeh worked my a** off for 4hrs and make sure everything was shot and covered properly and knn getting the old aunties to pose together and put on smiles for the camera, go fort caning park some more etc etc etc .............. and they only want to pay me $100 just becos I m from poly doing this parttime

    Sebei tulan.............. I called back the groom to see how I will get paid......... bladdy guy kenna psycho by his uncles' 'logic' and now also
    want me to accept $100 claiming that he thought that they would get 4R prints when I accepted the job at $200 when I VERY clearly remembered telling him that they would get a CD of all the images.

    Wah lan my blood really boil like crazy now.

    I got so pissed off and told him "Hey man!!! Nevermind, keep your farcking $100 !!!!!! I'm deleting all the images! BYE!" and re-formatted my CF card right there in the taxi.

    It felt good at tat time

    But now I feel sad because the couple lost their ROM pics (except those taken by their own relatives' and friends' cameras)
    You should have a small contract signed with the couple... and stating what they will get... Should never go out for a shoot without one.. If it is only $200, ask them to pay for it before the actual day. I would normally ask 50% deposit for wedding shoot, anything less than $500, I will ask them to pay in full for firm booking.

    One thing for sure.. I won't delete the image, but I will just create a weblink and send it to them... Ask them to pay nothing, but to show your professionalism, you will put it online for them and if they want some photos from there, well, they have to pay for it... charge them like $10 for a 4x6 and $25 for 8x10 at least.

    I am sure you have taken some great shots and they will eventually buy it if they like it... no point of taking things to extreme... no one gain from it, and you just wasted your 4-5 hours of your time.... and you made yourself a bad reputation.

    Hart

  5. #85
    Senior Member Cheesecake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Got customer like diz..... can vomit blood...

    Quote Originally Posted by righton
    I know I am one of those pariah photogs you guys always complain about because of the lowly niche we cover, but I think clients have to respect that relationship at least. Because if they do not, why shud I?

    --------------
    i think S$200 for 4hrs is still ok for a ROM shoot. but u could at least charge S$300 and 50% upon signing and agreeing with the terms and conditions u stipulated in a contract(no 4R and little Post Processing plus a CD of the images).

    it's all part of learning! don't worry!

    i don't think u're bitching about ur clients and i think u've every right to list ur experience and share it with the photography community. ignore what some other member(s) have stated about u tarnishing or watever to the clients' reputation and such.

    just charge more the next time round and demand a deposit!
    You'll Never Walk Alone! - i have the best job in the world!

  6. #86

    Default Re: Got customer like diz..... can vomit blood...

    Quote Originally Posted by righton
    hi Jon, i think its not pro of me if i name names and post pics of the other party....I didnt do that. They tok like gangsters and oh did I mention that I called them uneducated too? so thus my opinion of them

    i used to think no need to sign contract becaus the amount is so little, i dun have fax machine, few people have scanning and PDF file conversion and most importantly, I am not a registered business .... some of the prices (above) i pay for being a parttime freelance... and yes some important lessons I learn about people.

    again i stress its the sheer indignity that i went thru in trying to earn an honest dollar..... and also the disappointment of how (despite being at the lower lifeform in the photog foodchain, I know where i stand.....for now) despite my position, i try to add value to my service (making preparations as best as i could to get the job done well and to the extent of dressing up nicely to show respect to the occassion and some post-shoot batch processing to 'brigten up' the images) but getting treated like this in d end. Apart from anger, I really felt betrayed.

    I know I am one of those pariah photogs you guys always complain about because of the lowly niche we cover, but I think clients have to respect that relationship at least. Because if they do not, why shud I?

    --------------

    that the problem, if you are cheap, people will preceive that way too.If you are expensive, even the uncle have to give you some face. Its all part of growing up dude. Next time even the job is $50, do it in black and white, and get a deposit. That way your interest is protected.

    Actually i feel you done everything right, expect to delete the images. Now play the cards properly, before you exchange your images to them, make the mother or groom sign the contact. You have already witness to what extent they are capable of pulling off. The next trick they pull is that they may not like your images (whether real or not). Write on something to protect your rights.

    Dun be disencouraged by this type of clients, i kenna before as well, in a different way. Super Cheapo clients whom refuse to pay for my time as stated in the contact. Cool off and take this as a good experience.

  7. #87

    Default Re: Got customer like diz..... can vomit blood...

    Quote Originally Posted by thoa_rs
    As much as I sympathasize with you, I feel that it's extremely unprofessional to bitch about clients on a public forum (furthermore calling the groom's family uneducated gangsters), whether or not the client is in the wrong. Seems like you didn't even have a proper written contract with terms and conditions for your shoot? If you did, you could have at least taken legal action.
    i seriously think there is nothing wrong. The photographer did not mention the groom's name, only relate his/her experience.

    This thread serves a very good read for many photogs.

  8. #88
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    Default Re: Got customer like diz..... can vomit blood...

    Hi everyone.

    I think there have been plenty of views here from both sides of the fence. However, may I suggest that instead of dwelling in the past and coming up with all kinds of funny suggestions etc, just move on and learn from this mistake.

    Ultimately, I think the lesson learnt here is when there are monetary issues involved, there must always be some form of contract in black and white with all the details, terms and conditions and deliverables spelt out before the undertaking of the job. Also, consider collecting deposits in the future.

    So now everyone, let's just learn from this and move on ok...?

  9. #89

    Default Re: Got customer like diz..... can vomit blood...

    Wrong to delete and formatt all cf card like that. Remember, a professional don't do it that way. Correct to tell them off, but improper to formatt card.

    You can just burn into CDs right?
    You can wait for them to call and settle it right? By formatting the card, are you any different from them?

    The uncle may be abit drunk and they are brought up that way, so you are right to just walk away. In the cab, the groom should not ask you to accept $100/-, so again you are right to slam him on the spot, i will do it to, but formatt the card, you are making a big mistake, and the newbie here are learning the wrong move.

    Do remember, photographers are making wonderful memories for the ppl, helping ppl to remember that happy days years to come, so by deleting all images does no ones goods. They will pay eventually.

    I do encounter such things b4, saying why so expensive, i just smile, told them thats the other photographers charge, but not me.
    Eat breath LIVERPOOL!!!

  10. #90
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    Default Re: Got customer like diz..... can vomit blood...

    Quote Originally Posted by green_leaf
    hearing this incident really piss me off.
    Salute to you. But i guess you should still charge them for the work and labour of 4+hours.

    No film development = no effort?
    Bullshit

    I believe post processing the digital files would take as long and as much effort as developing film, if not more.

    I think you should describe the process to the old uncle all the cheem techincal stuffs until he blur and ask him understand or not. Mock his ignorance. mountain tortoise.

    Ya next time write everything down in Black and white to protect yourself and the other party.
    No point explaining processes to fools who dun understand.

    Peeps would usually give u these standard replies:
    - Ur shots so lousy, use computer den only become so nice. Computer can make everything nice.
    - Good skill ppl no need to use computer one. Lousy ppl den use computer and shoot.

    Yah things like these.

    There is no point in trying to talk them down and mock their mountain tortoise behaviour. U'll might get an orr bak kak in return for mocking their ignorance (well, they are anyway).
    "Wonders of the Human Mind. Unfathomable to the highest degree."

  11. #91
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    Default Re: Got customer like diz..... can vomit blood...

    Quote Originally Posted by smurfman
    Wrong to delete and formatt all cf card like that. Remember, a professional don't do it that way. Correct to tell them off, but improper to formatt card.

    You can just burn into CDs right?
    You can wait for them to call and settle it right? By formatting the card, are you any different from them?

    The uncle may be abit drunk and they are brought up that way, so you are right to just walk away. In the cab, the groom should not ask you to accept $100/-, so again you are right to slam him on the spot, i will do it to, but formatt the card, you are making a big mistake, and the newbie here are learning the wrong move.

    Do remember, photographers are making wonderful memories for the ppl, helping ppl to remember that happy days years to come, so by deleting all images does no ones goods. They will pay eventually.

    I do encounter such things b4, saying why so expensive, i just smile, told them thats the other photographers charge, but not me.
    that's professionalism. If you really delete their "wonderful" memories, I bet there's another thread somewhere else where a bride will be warning others abt a rougue photog deleting their photos cos they felt "over-charged".

    Calm down and ask them to check the rates else where before coming back to you. 万事以和为贵。

  12. #92
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Got customer like diz..... can vomit blood...

    Quote Originally Posted by smurfman
    Wrong to delete and formatt all cf card like that. Remember, a professional don't do it that way. Correct to tell them off, but improper to formatt card.

    You can just burn into CDs right?
    You can wait for them to call and settle it right? By formatting the card, are you any different from them?

    The uncle may be abit drunk and they are brought up that way, so you are right to just walk away. In the cab, the groom should not ask you to accept $100/-, so again you are right to slam him on the spot, i will do it to, but formatt the card, you are making a big mistake, and the newbie here are learning the wrong move.

    Do remember, photographers are making wonderful memories for the ppl, helping ppl to remember that happy days years to come, so by deleting all images does no ones goods. They will pay eventually.

    I do encounter such things b4, saying why so expensive, i just smile, told them thats the other photographers charge, but not me.
    Hey, that's the way to go, even the original poster charge super cheap for this assignment.

    It is not right to delecte images, cool down, go home, burn a CD, call the groom, ask him come pay you for the CD, as agreed price. If his is not happy, wait lor, never come and pay? nevermind, now his is in the fault, not you.

    Btw, cheapo price attract cheapo customers.

  13. #93

    Default Re: Got customer like diz..... can vomit blood...

    There are all types of unreasonable consumers in this world. But personally you have started on the wrong footing. Unless you have a reason, $200 for a whole day's work is definately underpaid ($400 is a more reasonable amout for 8 hours!) Secondly, for such low budget you should at least put the agreement in writing OR collect the $200 in advance since it is such a small amount.
    There was no need to argue with anyone except the person who contracted you. If that uncle wanted anything, just tell him that you will make the arrangement later and since it is a digital shots, they will not able to do anything, just dont argue.
    Then, never delete those photos for whatever reasons. You never know you may need them again.
    The best way is to cool down at that moment in the cab and wait for the couple to contact you again (the following day) to make payment and on your part to complete the part of the contract that you have agreed. Now the couple may be able to sue you for spoiling their wedding plan, and causing distress. Whatever the uncle did has got nothing to do with the couple, legally speaking.
    Your action appears childish and immature, and serve only a second of "songness" to hit back the uncle & co. but you may have caused a lifetime of incompleteness to a young couple for life!
    always the Light, .... always.

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    Default Re: Got customer like diz..... can vomit blood...

    although I hv no experience at all, but i dun feel sorry for the couple(groom) if he dun get his photos. Cuz for his attitude, he dun deserve any at all, in the first place he might as well get a friend to shoot for him for free, or get a camera phone and shoot himself all the way.

    the way the relatives treats righton is total crap loh..

    but still, if u could hv kept the photos la.. ha. but judging the situation, and the way the groom also ask for 100$, i can understand y u del them. haha

    I think there is nothin wrong with this thread at all, cuz righton did not reveal any names at all.

  15. #95

    Default Re: Got customer like diz..... can vomit blood...

    i like to thank everyone for the very sensible advise and suggestions. I have picked up very good advise from all the senior bros here in CS

    Transferred the images over to PC dis morning and burned 2 sets of images........ 1 in full resolution for enlargements and the other in sized down dimension for them to email to friends and relatives and to allow them to put a quick slideshow together with smaller file sizes.

    I also threw in some Unsharp Mask, simple border lines, kicked up the contrast and brightness a little, made a nice CD sticker and created a simple CDcover ROM theme photo with titles. Now just waiting for $$$ to be transferred to posbank b4 i mail out the CD

    i know, in certain areas i can learn to be more mature like not to be rash about certain actions .........anyway the images were already backed up much much earlier before i reformatted my CF card. That is one fault of mine, to grab ANYTHING near me and use it as a vent or release of my frustration

    the typical stereotype about us shorties being very passionate, very fierce chili padi applies to me heh heh heh.

    maybe i should start deflecting attention away from my case and ask other senior bros here to share similar experiences? and how they dealt with it in the best possible way?

  16. #96
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Got customer like diz..... can vomit blood...

    Quote Originally Posted by righton
    just reformat the cf card because of blind anger at that time.......................

    ....................... show them respect at the occassion.
    Just read this post of yours, whatever it is,
    Quote Originally Posted by righton
    ......... but he was like so utterly no-balls and kowtow to them all the way..... even had to get his mummy to call me to settle...... I honestly think his wife should re-consider if she has married a real man who is mature enuf to make the 'right justice' decisions. Really sad that his mum is more 'gentleman' than the men themselves.........................
    Keep this part to yourself, you are there to photograph the event, when you saw something, you may share your feeling here, but not to comment or make any remakes on your customers in the public forum.

  17. #97
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    Default Re: Got customer like diz..... can vomit blood...

    Quote Originally Posted by righton
    wowz, ha ha pls dun compare my situation to a hooker bro!
    I apologize. I didn't mean to.....

  18. #98
    Senior Member Virgo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Got customer like diz..... can vomit blood...

    I think it's a lesson well learnt righton, and you have my sympathy thoughout.

    I think by deleting all the pics is meer impulse, and it makes no difference in solving the situation. If I were you, I'll hang on to those pics, wait till they come 'koutou' (apologise) to you and promised you the $$$ as discussed earlier. Just make sure you deliver accordingly to show professionalism.

    For the next time, I suggest you draft out a 'quote' and make them acknowledge. Cover yourself as well as the couple.

    Also, I think making bad remarks of your clients in a forum like this also reflects your professionalism. Do give it a thought.
    Last edited by Virgo; 2nd December 2005 at 02:25 PM.
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  19. #99

    Default Re: Got customer like diz..... can vomit blood...

    I guess your customers grew up in Kampongs and hence the gangster attitude. They may be poor and hence the 'kiam siap' attitude.

  20. #100
    Senior Member Virgo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Got customer like diz..... can vomit blood...

    Yo bro, poor and 'kiam siap' is one thing. Having agreed on the charges and don't pay is another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernard Ong
    I guess your customers grew up in Kampongs and hence the gangster attitude. They may be poor and hence the 'kiam siap' attitude.
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