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Thread: Help Needed With Building PC for Editing

  1. #41
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    Default Re: Help Needed With Building PC for Editing

    Quote Originally Posted by espn
    Yeah, 1D MKII files are quite big, your PC need to upgrade also.
    1D MKII files are big, but can safely shoot in jpeg so dont really need a powerful PC to crop/resize/sharpen, unless the skill cannot make it or need to get the best quality out of it, then need to use RAW

    btw, which day are u going to start covering that event?

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Help Needed With Building PC for Editing

    Quote Originally Posted by Wai
    1D MKII files are big, but can safely shoot in jpeg so dont really need a powerful PC to crop/resize/sharpen, unless the skill cannot make it or need to get the best quality out of it, then need to use RAW

    btw, which day are u going to start covering that event?
    When he is shooting birds, don't think he wants to use 1D MKII to shoot in JPEG


    Me ah? Don't feel like covering lazy... got some events on weekends to cover... might not go... still recovering from my Japan holiday lag. Hahaha.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Help Needed With Building PC for Editing

    thanks dudes once again for ur precious suggestions.

    well, i did build a pc abt 3 yrs back, but have since stopped researching abt pc parts and stuff. and along the way just help friends build budget pcs, didnt do too much reseraching too. also, am only begin to wanna photoshop abit more seriously and though i have read adobe's page on ps's mem management, i still dont quite understand it.

    however, i have sworn off ready assembled pcs as they usually come with alot of crap that i dun want or need. hence been sticking with self assembled all the way. but anyhow, i m just gonna do what i did 3 yrs back. ask for suggestions and start researching again. the only reason y i m not doing much researching this time is because i m in the midst of my exams!!!

    heh, but really really appreciate all comments and feedbacks!

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Help Needed With Building PC for Editing

    Quote Originally Posted by wainism
    thanks dudes once again for ur precious suggestions.

    well, i did build a pc abt 3 yrs back, but have since stopped researching abt pc parts and stuff. and along the way just help friends build budget pcs, didnt do too much reseraching too. also, am only begin to wanna photoshop abit more seriously and though i have read adobe's page on ps's mem management, i still dont quite understand it.

    however, i have sworn off ready assembled pcs as they usually come with alot of crap that i dun want or need. hence been sticking with self assembled all the way. but anyhow, i m just gonna do what i did 3 yrs back. ask for suggestions and start researching again. the only reason y i m not doing much researching this time is because i m in the midst of my exams!!!

    heh, but really really appreciate all comments and feedbacks!
    Ok looks like your head is screwed on abit tighter Go for it but...3 yrs ago...is a long time back and alot have changed and what is worst...alot more problem parts too. Even brands as big as Asus which I have been buying and installing for a decade now is begining to have problem and worst...slow to fix them..they have a number of MB with problems...for example. When you check on a part you want to buy, check if it has problem being connected to another part you are buying..there has been issues cropping up of late with QC. I have been hearing so much about HDD crash here and so many with so much fear till some are using RAID 5 even for home system. I have very rarely suffer or crash and so far the only crash I have that was bad was to a 8 yr old Seagate 1.7 gig that crashed afew time heheh..I am those who don;t throw stuff away. I seldom hear of really bad crashes for any of the system I do for people..it is also about know how to prevent them and it is not that hard like invest in a good UPS, Good Power module ( Antec's 550 good ..get more watt if you can this is really becoming more and more important these days) and defrag your system during your off hour use at least once a month. Just simple stuff like these and your HDD goes a long way.

    I have two HDD on my system due to my using Photoshop. One is my data cum scratch disk as some of my artwork are multi layered PSD files that are as large as 300 -500 mb (for big A2-A1 poster size artwork in 300dpi) in size and when you start adding layers of graphic or editing difference effects,brush work, cloning, colour balancing, each undo level can be another 100mb and you can have as much as 20 to 30 undo level at least ( you can purge if you don't need to undo any of the steps.....you do the math and you really need alot of RAM and Scratch disk space on another drive so it does not compete with Window's virtual memory. That's for doing my commercial work at the office. But for editing my Nikon D70 6mp photo pictures or even a 12mp photo...even if I took it to make an A4(tiff abt 18-22mb) to A3 (35mb+) size artwork like say a picture of my family dog and then I mask out part I dont need and pretty up the background, place fancy font texts on it,use a few plugin-effects like Ninja to clean the picture, unsharp mask, Alien Eye Candy, Kai Power Tools effect..etc and maybe merge it with a few smaller feathered montage photo of the dog in various poses as well. They are all done in layers during production stage. I could get it done pretty fast on just a 1 Gig RAM system...EASY!. And that's on a P4 3.0 Intel. If not for this main use of scratch disk, I am pretty happy with just one HDD on my other system which I use to play game. Be abit suspect even if it is brand name part....research at other forums to see how those parts really performance when used with other parts or for use with certain programs. Good Luck bro....
    Last edited by sammy888; 15th November 2005 at 02:03 PM.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Help Needed With Building PC for Editing

    Quote Originally Posted by tunster
    Scratch disk is just a tempory storage of your current working files. Which to say, it depence on how big is your current working photograph and how many photographs are you working on. Somewhat I call it a "temp" folder. You do NOT need to partition out a drive just for that, don't waste that amount of space.
    There is good reason to disagree with you on this. Having your scratch disk on a separate partition is recommended to ensure that you're using a contiguous free space for the image cacheing. And this is good because it ensures a consistent performance quality. Partitioning 1-2 gigs for a scratch disk is nothing in the age of cheap large harddisk drives. Better than forcing the drive to read from all over the place if the free space for your scratch disk space is fragmented, as is usual when the drive gets fuller and fuller.

    One of the tricks to ensuring consistent PS performance on a laptop (which usually only have a single HD onboard) is to do precisely this. Some people would even go as far as to partition for scratch disk, that section of the drive which has the faster, if not the fastest, transfer rates.
    Last edited by kahheng; 16th November 2005 at 04:33 AM.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Help Needed With Building PC for Editing

    heh all the best with your system building..
    note:

    wai =>
    1) The pata comments were made coz someone told him to trash his pata hdd. which i think is not necessary.
    2) I assume he will get it calibrated. agreed, uncalibrated CRT is really bad
    3) RAID1, not RAID0.. LOL you can't lose data with complete data redundancy.. unless you lose both hdd at once. guess that's why they use more than just 2 hdd in system critical pcs..
    4) I had problems with disabling executive paging/page files with ATI video drivers. I found out later that it's stated on their site that the drivers causes system crash. you'll wanna avoid at least with cards before and including the 9800 series..
    5) Check his original post out. he uses it to watch video, ms office, doesn't play game, nothing cpu intensive. (2ghz machine is enough) His requirements were to do photoediting, of which photoshop is a multi-threaded program. Thus, I'm not recommending a system to satisfy the general public but for specific needs.
    Regarding his video card, the same above applies.. though DX9 is impt.. else avalon is not gonna run.. For his use, not even the best of the professionals can tell if you're using a X800 or a 9200 or 5200 card, or a GF4mx. His application requirements simply do not exceed the capabilities of the display card. As simple as that.
    as for 1600X1200 resolution.. I doubt his $1k budget can afford a LCD that can run at 1600x1200. using a modern DX9 card, you're unlikely to run into artifacts at 1600x1200 32bits. it only requires 7.68mb (1600*1200*32bits/8bits) of memory. -.- a simple DX9 card will do if he wants to save $$. he's unlikely to use more than 60% of the card's potential already. with a x300, he's unlikely to use more than 5% of the card's potential 99% of the time.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Help Needed With Building PC for Editing

    Suggest to consider building around this or at least have an upgrade strategy so that what you build will not become obsolete too soon.

    a) windows longhorn 64bit processing - requires 64 bit processors but will certainly handle photo/video editing better, and I'd think CS3 be out optimized specfically for this.

    b) faster system disks - WD Raptors 10K RPMs (either 36Gb or 74Gb will do)

    c) RAID 1 /mirroring for storage security - You'll need at least 2 storage HDDs and require a Motherboard that enables this with a good RAID chip for speed. Storage HDD can be 7.5k RPM from my experience and Hard disks are easily upgradeable and can be of different sizes so you can reuse what you've got.

    The rest e.g. RAM, CPU, GPU, monitor is easier to upgrade later on and you'll be spoilt for choice, but make sure you get the right motherboard and features and >450Watts of power for max expandibility. This thing is endless, so you might want to have a rough roadmap so that you won't end up confused.

    I built my 3.2GHz, 1G Ram with 36K system disk (10K RPM) 2 years ago and upgraded from single 80G HDD to RAID 1 mirror with 2X 240G HDDs recently. It was a motherboard with a feature I didn't use until 2 years later. I expect all these to last till the end of 2006 at least, and all the HDDs to be useable in the next system in 2007

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Help Needed With Building PC for Editing

    Quote Originally Posted by kahheng
    There is good reason to disagree with you on this. Having your scratch disk on a separate partition is recommended to ensure that you're using a contiguous free space for the image cacheing. And this is good because it ensures a consistent performance quality. Partitioning 1-2 gigs for a scratch disk is nothing in the age of cheap large harddisk drives. Better than forcing the drive to read from all over the place if the free space for your scratch disk space is fragmented, as is usual when the drive gets fuller and fuller.

    One of the tricks to ensuring consistent PS performance on a laptop (which usually only have a single HD onboard) is to do precisely this. Some people would even go as far as to partition for scratch disk, that section of the drive which has the fastest, if not the faster, transfer rates.
    lol agree.. I keep a 20gb partition only for my video/photo work..
    but then again... seek times are fast enough that the lil bit of performance gain is very little..

    don't mind me, but laptops do PS is kinda joke le.. partitioning won't improve performance by more than a few mili seconds. Laptop is too geared towards power saving that the hdd spins down after a short while etc etc etc.. with alot of other factors.. the speed gain is close to 0..

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Help Needed With Building PC for Editing

    Quote Originally Posted by wainism
    whats DX9 compliant?
    DX9 = DirectX 9, a microsoft standard..
    It'll help you see the eye candies faster in the new windows. very nice one wor..

    As for how much scratch disk to allocate:
    think this way: 1 8MP photo: 3456 x 2304
    using full tiff, 32 bits (due to alpha channel information)
    memory needed = 3456 x 2304 x 32 / 8 = 31850496bytes = 32MB..

    as a rough guide, coz i don't have access to CS2 codes/algorithm
    if got 5 full layers, then 32mb x 5 = 160mb around there
    for 20 level of undo => 160 * 20 = 3.2gb max around there.
    (unlikely to reach max.. you don't start working with 5 layers full of information immediately.)

    if u open 10 images at the same time with 5 layers each and with max 20 steps done on each, then 3.2gb X 10 = 30gb of data (MAX!!!)

    thus.. calculate your own requirements.. set a bit more than max that you need..
    Opening 45 jpgs in photoshop only and nothing else done = 45*32 = 1.44gb of data generated..


    Thus yes, PS is memory intensive.. I never deny that. always allocate enough scratch space.
    However due to the inherent flaw in Windows XP, 2gb of ram is NOT going to be used unless you disable executive paging/page files etc.. And as you see, with 20 levels of undo, even with 2gb of RAM with no paging, you'll burst your memory, and boy would u see a system slowdown when window starts to create a page file page table etc..

    get a fast harddisk... LOL all the raptor that they're talking about, that's scsi for you.. but SCSI is expensive... but fast. very fast.. I think i ever performed a full format a scsi 20gb in about 8 seconds.. forgot liaoz..
    Last edited by unseen; 15th November 2005 at 05:24 PM.

  10. #50

    Default Re: Help Needed With Building PC for Editing

    Quote Originally Posted by unseen
    lol agree.. I keep a 20gb partition only for my video/photo work..
    but then again... seek times are fast enough that the lil bit of performance gain is very little..

    don't mind me, but laptops do PS is kinda joke le.. partitioning won't improve performance by more than a few mili seconds. Laptop is too geared towards power saving that the hdd spins down after a short while etc etc etc.. with alot of other factors.. the speed gain is close to 0..
    I am so impressed with your 'techie' knowledge that you do not realize that when the laptop is hooked to the AC, most people do not set their HDDs to spin down that frequently/quickly because there's no need to save power. Typically, when the laptop is connected to the mains with the adapter, it's running at full throttle, infrequent spin downs, and no throttling of CPU speed.......

    Who does serious Photoshop on battery power for long? I am guessing but I think if you ask Tunster who's using Photoshop on his notebook, he's usually plugged in to the mains when he's using the application.

    You're some techie indeed.

  11. #51

    Default Re: Help Needed With Building PC for Editing

    Quote Originally Posted by unseen
    DX9 = DirectX 9, a microsoft standard..
    It'll help you see the eye candies faster in the new windows. very nice one wor..

    As for how much scratch disk to allocate:
    think this way: 1 8MP photo: 3456 x 2304
    using full tiff, 32 bits (due to alpha channel information)
    memory needed = 3456 x 2304 x 32 / 8 = 31850496bytes = 32MB..

    as a rough guide, coz i don't have access to CS2 codes/algorithm
    if got 5 full layers, then 32mb x 5 = 160mb around there
    for 20 level of undo => 160 * 20 = 3.2gb max around there.
    (unlikely to reach max.. you don't start working with 5 layers full of information immediately.)

    if u open 10 images at the same time with 5 layers each and with max 20 steps done on each, then 3.2gb X 10 = 30gb of data (MAX!!!)

    thus.. calculate your own requirements.. set a bit more than max that you need..
    Opening 45 jpgs in photoshop only and nothing else done = 45*32 = 1.44gb of data generated..


    Thus yes, PS is memory intensive.. I never deny that. always allocate enough scratch space.
    However due to the inherent flaw in Windows XP, 2gb of ram is NOT going to be used unless you disable executive paging/page files etc.. And as you see, with 20 levels of undo, even with 2gb of RAM with no paging, you'll burst your memory, and boy would u see a system slowdown when window starts to create a page file page table etc..

    get a fast harddisk... LOL all the raptor that they're talking about, that's scsi for you.. but SCSI is expensive... but fast. very fast.. I think i ever performed a full format a scsi 20gb in about 8 seconds.. forgot liaoz..
    Very powerful one wor
    Last edited by kahheng; 15th November 2005 at 07:15 PM.

  12. #52
    Senior Member sammy888's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help Needed With Building PC for Editing

    [QUOTE=unseen
    if u open 10 images at the same time with 5 layers each and with max 20 steps done on each, then 3.2gb X 10 = 30gb of data (MAX!!!)

    thus.. calculate your own requirements.. set a bit more than max that you need..
    Opening 45 jpgs in photoshop only and nothing else done = 45*32 = 1.44gb of data generated..


    Thus yes, PS is memory intensive.. I never deny that. always allocate enough scratch space.
    However due to the inherent flaw in Windows XP, 2gb of ram is NOT going to be used unless you disable executive paging/page files etc.. And as you see, with 20 levels of undo, even with 2gb of RAM with no paging, you'll burst your memory, and boy would u see a system slowdown when window starts to create a page file page table etc..
    [/QUOTE]

    heheh that is just in theory though brudder...any editing designer worth their salt will never open so many files at one go for many reasons and it has nothing to do with hardware or someone who is that saddistic to push their hardware like that everytime. If your workflow is like that when you edit, you have to relearn how you do graphic designing and editing heheheh. But yes the point is made that Photoshop is a memory hog but that really depends on how you use it for designing. Ask some of those who use Mac or PC to do desigin work with Photoshop, Illustrator, Freehand, Firework, Flash, CorelDraw and tons of other plugins and working on large posters...ask how old and what configuration their computers are and it will tell you the real work story....then factor that down to the level of a amatuer photographer who just want to edit abit here and there. But of course if money is no object and you just want the best...then the sky is the limit...but even then...there is still limits in the hardware you can buy to make them work and work well heheh. Anyway I have never tested anything beyond 2 gig so far. But I would not mind going to anyone's home with that kind of system to run one of my design files to see how fast it gets So....Kahheng...mind if we go to your home or office to try out your speed demon?

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Help Needed With Building PC for Editing

    kahheng => Sorry, I don't use notebooks to do serious graphics work. The basic fact that the hdds spin at 5400RPS and the fact that notebooks has limited system bandwidth stops me from using it for PS. BTW the frequent spin downs is not only to save power, but to extend the life of a 2.5" HDD. It will occur regardless. Techies will possibly remove the spindown time, but the smart ones won't.. I think most of them would rather the hdd last longer. Though most people won't think about setting it to never shut off.

    lol bro sammy888 => that only shows that alot of people here don't know their facts. I was trying to prove something indirectly.. I'm glad you totally endorsed it. Thank You
    you DON'T NEED 2 GB of ram. you CAN'T fully utilise 2GB of ram with such simple applications like photoshop. Editing 2 images at time, you won't possibly hit it.. As said, a few of the config suggested are NOT practicable. Powerful yes, but totally impractical for photoediting. *shrug* 1 GB of ram is more than enough given a proper workflow. I've been suggesting that all the while, that it's a waste of $$ to buy 2GB of ram cos he's limited to only $2k. Might as well spend the $$ else where..
    Anyway since apparently you're not very sure, photoshop doesn't clear out its cache immediately. It's a resouce hog. you open, you close image AND you do some manipulations, the stuff are still stuck in the cache. they don't get cleared out after you close the file. Assuming you do 10 files one after another, the file space requirement is gonna bloat up considerably. If you don't have enough scratch, what PS will do is to start going through your scratch disk to determine which can be discarded.. THAT is when you experience system slowdown.
    1 + point to 2GB ram.. if PS does the clearing out b4 windows XP pages to the hdd, then PS will be of course faster. but unlikely

    Once again, I suggest the config based on needs of the original poster
    It's customized for his requirements, from my view. He doesn't need it to play games and do other stuff..
    Last edited by unseen; 16th November 2005 at 04:30 AM.

  14. #54

    Default Re: Help Needed With Building PC for Editing

    Quote Originally Posted by unseen
    kahheng => Sorry, I don't use notebooks to do serious graphics work. The basic fact that the hdds spin at 5400RPS and the fact that notebooks has limited system bandwidth stops me from using it for PS. BTW the frequent spin downs is not only to save power, but to extend the life of a 2.5" HDD. It will occur regardless. Techies will possibly remove the spindown time, but the smart ones won't.. I think most of them would rather the hdd last longer. Though most people won't think about setting it to never shut off.

    lol bro sammy888 => that only shows that alot of people here don't know their facts. I was trying to prove something indirectly.. I'm glad you totally endorsed it. Thank You
    you DON'T NEED 2 GB of ram. you CAN'T use 2GB of ram with such simple applications like photoshop. Editing 2 images at time, you won't possibly hit it.. As said, a few of the config suggested are NOT practicable. Powerful yes, but totally impractical for photoediting. *shrug* 1 GB of ram is more than enough given a proper workflow. I've been suggesting that all the while, that it's a waste of $$ to buy 2GB of ram cos he's limited to only $2k.
    Anyway since apparently you're not very sure, photoshop doesn't clear out its cache immediately. It's a resouce hog. you open, you close image AND you do some manipulations, the stuff are still stuck in the cache. they don't get cleared out after you close the file. Assuming you do 10 files one after another, the file space requirement is gonna bloat up considerably. If you don't have enough scratch, what PS will do is to start going through your scratch disk to determine which can be discarded.. THAT is when you experience system slowdown.
    We've clearly all been blessed to have heard your words of wisdom......

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Help Needed With Building PC for Editing

    Peace dude. I seek no quarrels with you.
    I'm aware that there are some who do powerpoint on their laptops. I assume that most of them are doing it because it's on the go kind of a thing. Doing it on laptop is better than not being able to do it.

    I was quite rude in calling it a joke, and I really apologise for that, but I am unaware that there are those who are fully dependant on laptops doing their photoshop full time. For those people, as you mentioned, partioning out a small bit of disk space is viable.. but for those on the go, the it's a waste of space as tunster said. the speed gain for the few photos that may be done is negligible.

    Sorry for any offence caused.

  16. #56

    Default Re: Help Needed With Building PC for Editing

    Quote Originally Posted by unseen
    Peace dude. I seek no quarrels with you.
    I'm aware that there are some who do powerpoint on their laptops. I assume that most of them are doing it because it's on the go kind of a thing. Doing it on laptop is better than not being able to do it.

    I was quite rude in calling it a joke, and I really apologise for that, but I am unaware that there are those who are fully dependant on laptops doing their photoshop full time. For those people, as you mentioned, partioning out a small bit of disk space is viable.. but for those on the go, the it's a waste of space as tunster said. the speed gain for the few photos that may be done is negligible.

    Sorry for any offence caused.
    You are even more talented than you sound! By the way, since you called yourself a "techie", what do you mean by that?

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