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Thread: Newbie needing advice, please

  1. #21

    Default Re: Newbie needing advice, please

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    TS the suggestion to start with your smart phone is a good idea, because good pictures are more about composition and having a story behind the pictures. As a start google ABC aka Aik Beng Chia, asliceofheaven aka Derek Woo, alex ortega on instagram and see how these folks take their smart phone photography to the limit. You will see only your creativity is the limit.

    For a start download snapseed app to use as your picture editor and start from there.

    As you progress, you will hit some limitations, from there you will know what you need in a camera system.
    Snapseed is probably the must have app on a mobile phone!! Absolutely love nik's creation

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Newbie needing advice, please

    Quote Originally Posted by thoongeng View Post
    The seniors have given very good advice from their vast experiences and I agree with them. Just giving my 2 cents on some questions you raised...



    Decades of awesome marketing by the camera companies, but everyone conveniently leaves out the one behind the camera
    (when's the last time when the food is good you ask what knife the chef used or what pan the cook used? Hehe...)



    I googled 'mobile photography awards' and got to this website. You can also google 'iphoneography'
    http://mobilephotoawards.com/2014-mp...able-mentions/

    Actually the lines between smartphones and dedicated cameras are blurring. There's a phone with 10x zoom lens from Samsung, and also a phone with larger 1" sensor from Panasonic.



    You won't go wrong going with either Olympus or Fuji. There are pros and cons of each system that's why people can argue for whole forums over which is better hehe... my very general idea is that Fuji has a bigger sensor and many lenses are targeted at the higher end market, so image quality is a bit better however the system will be larger / heavier and more expensive. Many people who chose Fuji also like the out of camera JPG colours more. Olympus or the micro four thirds system has a bigger range of lenses from entry level to high end so a bit more options.

    For me if there's a camera that makes you want to pick it up to learn about photography then it would have fulfilled it's purpose. Do note like many hobbies the costs can quickly spiral if you're not careful that's why all the seniors are advising you to go slow
    Haha thanks for this! I have absolutely no doubt at all that the advice given by the seniors is golden, and derived from years and years of experience, and is well meaning in nature - despite how it may sound like one is being discouraged from picking up the hobby.

    The thing for me about smartphones is that the 'argument' seems to be around the 'better' models, I.e., iPhone 6, newer Samsung galaxy's etc, but for me I tend to try and keep a phone simple, heh.

    I wasn't aware however that compared to the fuji system, the Olympus/m43 system has got a wider range of lenses, so thanks for that!

    Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: Newbie needing advice, please

    @nikonzen , thank you for the advice. Will certainly do so. Having read on and off and come into contact with family and friends who used to shoot film (and now digital) I have had the opportunity to have a brief appreciation of what each are, but will definitely need to read deeper, and also into how they interplay.

    Re the thread, do you happen to remember who or what the title is, or which subforum it was in please? Would be interesting and helpful to read that, methinks.

    @one eye jack - thanks for the run down! Quick clarification please: when you say 'system camera', is not the fuji interchangeable systems (like XT10) also considered one, or is it in reference to the X100T?

    Re the image stabilisation in-body vs in-lens, won't the in-lens also accord the same stabilisation benefits? (That is, if that particular lens has it).

    Will read about the review by Robin Wong. And yes I have no grand visions that buying the best and most expensive gear will make me the best photographer! Helps that I like to know what I'm doing, so generally try and consume as much information as I can. As for girls upgrading to EM5 ... Maybe they are rich/have rich boyfriends/husbands/families? Heh.

    @DSolZ, good point about the depreciation. Read that the xpro2 is scheduled for this year - year end? - and when that happens prices are expected to go down one step across the board in like categories.

    @daredevil, thanks for the lead on where to start looking! Alex Ortega I think I already follow, will go follow the other people and have a look. Not sure my basic xiaomi will be able to do the same, but no harm seeing what others can do (:

    Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk

  4. #24

    Default Re: Newbie needing advice, please

    Keith probably can tell you when Xpro 2 will be released
    Anyway it is rumored to be announced this month.

    Good luck for your journey .. and have fun.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Nikonzen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newbie needing advice, please

    TS bros were talking about different models in the thread I mentioned nevertheless the information is relevant I believe...

    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1569377
    Expand your mind or get left behind

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    Default Re: Newbie needing advice, please

    Quote Originally Posted by DSolZ View Post
    Keith probably can tell you when Xpro 2 will be released
    Anyway it is rumored to be announced this month.

    Good luck for your journey .. and have fun.
    CES starts tomorrow yes! Hehe.

    Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk

  7. #27

    Default Re: Newbie needing advice, please

    In light of your shift of intention towards interchangeable lens cameras, I'll continue on from my previous post.
    I find it useful to categorize systems by their sensor format.
    1" -> m43 -> APS-C -> FF
    I'll also stick to mirrorless formats due to size considerations and have ignored anything smaller than 1" sensors.
    To simplify the situation, the sensor area approximately doubles between each sensor format. So you get all the associated benefits of a larger sensor image quality (IQ) wise and the associated increase in lens size to produce an image circle that will cover your sensor.
    There's a limit to how small you can make the mount, AF motor and housing around the lens so 1" lenses tend not to be that much smaller than m43 from what I've seen. Whilst FF lenses are generally quite large, often necessitating increasing the grip area of a FF body for better balance. So many of us arrive at the conclusion there's a sweet spot somewhere around m43 and the APS-C sensors for a compact system. This is of course very subjective so only a hands on with the various cameras in each format will give you a better feel for what you think is the sweet spot.

    So for m43 you have Olympus and Panasonic as the main players and in APS-C you have Sony, Fuji, Canon and Samsung.
    The above is just FYI. Since you've narrowed it to Olympus and Fuji, I'll ignore the rest for the time being.

    I wrote a report on the E-M5 a long time ago and is quite outdated but feel free to have a read if it interests you:
    http://www.ausphotography.net.au/for...M5-User-Report

    My feelings towards E-M5 is that there is little IQ you give up if you're a RAW shooter. But as a JPEG shooter, what you're interested in is the output SOOC (straight out of camera). And that includes any colour profiles, NR, sharpening and other processing to get an optimal image SOOC. And the E-M5 is competing with software in models that in some cases are several years newer so although I'm not intimately familiar with some of the newest m43 models, I dare say the JPEG output should be noticeably better. There are also quirks from a first generation product that may be a little annoying.
    Although the economics favour buying second hand as a stepping stone, as a beginner there is also the peace of mind of buying new with warranty. I'm not sure where you comfort level is.

    Similarly with Fujifilm, you're interested in SOOC JPEGs so it really doesn't matter whether it uses X-tran filtration or Bayer or Fovean, the camera has the appropriate software to give you an output. As a RAW shooter, at least in the early days there might have been something said about third party converters' poor handling of the RAW files because of the different colour filtration, but that's no longer an issue.
    So the colour and look of images from each manufacturer may be an important consideration. Even for us RAW shooters, it is easier to start with a base profile you're pleased with to edit from. I can admit that I actually prefer Canon base colours for some genres even though I'm firmly in the Nikon camp.

    I follow a website from a photo guru by the name of Thom Hogan.
    This article should give you some useful info:
    http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/...hic-likes.html
    Also follow the link to the Nat Geo article that he's discussing and there're more useful info there:
    http://travel.nationalgeographic.com...29_600x450.jpg

    Having said all that, I think you could strongly consider an all-in-one advance compact for the time being if you really like to buy a separate camera from your phone since it will still remain an excellent travel cam in the future even as you interest grows.
    Something like an LX100 will edge out an E-M10 II with kit lens IMO but of course without the versatility of future lenses and accessories.
    But until you've dug in and know what you want, as others have pointed out there's simply too many choices. So perhaps consider investing in a system only when you're a post beginner.
    There will be a lot of action in the advance P&S market this year I reckon so there should be many options.

    Sorry I think I'm being very long winded and have over written again. LOL.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Newbie needing advice, please

    Quote Originally Posted by Cokiee View Post
    @one eye jack - thanks for the run down! Quick clarification please: when you say 'system camera', is not the fuji interchangeable systems (like XT10) also considered one, or is it in reference to the X100T?

    Re the image stabilisation in-body vs in-lens, won't the in-lens also accord the same stabilisation benefits? (That is, if that particular lens has it).

    XT10 is a system camera...

    You are right the stablisation in-lens works just as well as the in-body types
    but you fail to grasp the significance of the difference.For example Pansonic's Lumic M4/3
    cameras have the in-lens stabalisation while Olympus has in-body although lenses from
    both brands are interchangeable Lumic's camera will have no stabalisation if mated with
    an Olympus lens while it makes no difference to Olympus.Whether having stabalisation
    is helpful to a beginner is also debatable. FYI back in the film days one is taught that
    to get a shake free photo you have to have your upper arms against your side,camera
    wedged against your face,hold your breath and squeeze the shutter button gently
    like a sniper..haha.

    I hear and feel for you and fully agree with Swifty's sincere advice to stay away from
    system cameras and get a new advanced compact.You have to spend some money and start
    somewhere until you know what you want and is still interested in photography by then.
    Last edited by one eye jack; 5th January 2016 at 04:13 PM.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Newbie needing advice, please

    Quote Originally Posted by swifty View Post
    In light of your shift of intention towards interchangeable lens cameras, I'll continue on from my previous post.
    I find it useful to categorize systems by their sensor format.
    1" -> m43 -> APS-C -> FF
    I'll also stick to mirrorless formats due to size considerations and have ignored anything smaller than 1" sensors.
    To simplify the situation, the sensor area approximately doubles between each sensor format. So you get all the associated benefits of a larger sensor image quality (IQ) wise and the associated increase in lens size to produce an image circle that will cover your sensor.
    There's a limit to how small you can make the mount, AF motor and housing around the lens so 1" lenses tend not to be that much smaller than m43 from what I've seen. Whilst FF lenses are generally quite large, often necessitating increasing the grip area of a FF body for better balance. So many of us arrive at the conclusion there's a sweet spot somewhere around m43 and the APS-C sensors for a compact system. This is of course very subjective so only a hands on with the various cameras in each format will give you a better feel for what you think is the sweet spot.

    So for m43 you have Olympus and Panasonic as the main players and in APS-C you have Sony, Fuji, Canon and Samsung.
    The above is just FYI. Since you've narrowed it to Olympus and Fuji, I'll ignore the rest for the time being.

    I wrote a report on the E-M5 a long time ago and is quite outdated but feel free to have a read if it interests you:
    http://www.ausphotography.net.au/for...M5-User-Report

    My feelings towards E-M5 is that there is little IQ you give up if you're a RAW shooter. But as a JPEG shooter, what you're interested in is the output SOOC (straight out of camera). And that includes any colour profiles, NR, sharpening and other processing to get an optimal image SOOC. And the E-M5 is competing with software in models that in some cases are several years newer so although I'm not intimately familiar with some of the newest m43 models, I dare say the JPEG output should be noticeably better. There are also quirks from a first generation product that may be a little annoying.
    Although the economics favour buying second hand as a stepping stone, as a beginner there is also the peace of mind of buying new with warranty. I'm not sure where you comfort level is.

    Similarly with Fujifilm, you're interested in SOOC JPEGs so it really doesn't matter whether it uses X-tran filtration or Bayer or Fovean, the camera has the appropriate software to give you an output. As a RAW shooter, at least in the early days there might have been something said about third party converters' poor handling of the RAW files because of the different colour filtration, but that's no longer an issue.
    So the colour and look of images from each manufacturer may be an important consideration. Even for us RAW shooters, it is easier to start with a base profile you're pleased with to edit from. I can admit that I actually prefer Canon base colours for some genres even though I'm firmly in the Nikon camp.

    I follow a website from a photo guru by the name of Thom Hogan.
    This article should give you some useful info:
    http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/...hic-likes.html
    Also follow the link to the Nat Geo article that he's discussing and there're more useful info there:
    http://travel.nationalgeographic.com...29_600x450.jpg

    Having said all that, I think you could strongly consider an all-in-one advance compact for the time being if you really like to buy a separate camera from your phone since it will still remain an excellent travel cam in the future even as you interest grows.
    Something like an LX100 will edge out an E-M10 II with kit lens IMO but of course without the versatility of future lenses and accessories.
    But until you've dug in and know what you want, as others have pointed out there's simply too many choices. So perhaps consider investing in a system only when you're a post beginner.
    There will be a lot of action in the advance P&S market this year I reckon so there should be many options.

    Sorry I think I'm being very long winded and have over written again. LOL.
    You certainly have not over written, Mr D! Thank you for the articles. I quite enjoyed your review of the EM5 in the other forum; I thought it was quite well structured. Also the natgeo and sansmirror article.

    Also, this:
    Although the economics favour buying second hand as a stepping stone, as a beginner there is also the peace of mind of buying new with warranty. I'm not sure where you comfort level is.
    is incredibly true. Logically I know that - especially since we're on the cusp of new models being launched i.e., prices coming down, buying a second hand makes sense for someone in my position, there is a sense of not knowing what to look out for if I buy one from say, someone here. Sure, we could start with the old adage of buying the seller, but there still needs to be some form of check, for which I don't have the technical ability currently.

    @one eye jack - actually, what you said:

    FYI back in the film days one is taught that
    to get a shake free photo you have to have your upper arms against your side,camera
    wedged against your face,hold your breath and squeeze the shutter button gently
    like a sniper..haha.
    my ensuring mental image of what a good photograph taking pose looks like? It's probably from seeing my relatives shoot in the past - also the legs need to be front and back, about shoulder width apart, slightly leaning forward. heh.

    Re the compact, I actually, and perhaps erroneously to an extent, think the opposite. For me, someone who is new should have a wide range to be able to try out different things, then from there be able to narrow down to what s/he likes. Dunno, maybe it's just me, heh.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cokiee View Post
    Re the compact, I actually, and perhaps erroneously to an extent, think the opposite. For me, someone who is new should have a wide range to be able to try out different things, then from there be able to narrow down to what s/he likes. Dunno, maybe it's just me, heh.
    Actually in the end it boils down to budget. In terms of flexibility, advanced compacts like LX100 gives you the most flexibility for the money. You get a zoom lens, and at the same time get good image quality (m43 sensor). But compact camera lenses, although flexible, are not as good at specific purposes due to design. models to look at for flexibility panasonic LX100, canon G series. For fixed lens street X100s, ricoh GR. For birding or sports nikon P600 series give you super telezoom.

    For interchangaeble lens systems, you can get flexibility and optical quality through different lenses but at great cost. You want to try a new lens you have to buy it. Some lenses like ultrawide lenses are not cheap (over 1k even for m43). Try getting a f2.8 telezoom and you are looking at 1.5 to 2k. If you want to go system, budget at least 5 to 10k for a decent setup flexible enough with good image quality. If you are just going for variable aperture or lower end zoom lenses to save costs, might as well just get an advanced compact camera.

    Cameras nowadays get outdated very fast. No point getting a system when you are still learning at a beginning stage and not pushing it. Remember, the photographer makes the image not the camera. Better iq is almost unnoticable at viewing sizes, and in the end what makes a good picture is how your thought process. Thr camera quality does not make your picture great.
    Last edited by daredevil123; 6th January 2016 at 10:59 AM.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Newbie needing advice, please

    Quote Originally Posted by Cokiee View Post
    Re the compact, I actually, and perhaps erroneously to an extent, think the opposite. For me, someone who is new should have a wide range to be able to try out different things, then from there be able to narrow down to what s/he likes. Dunno, maybe it's just me, heh.
    You are not wrong to want a system camera ie: having interchangeable lenses.We have to be
    sensitive to the person who ask these questions about what cameras are suitable.Don't want
    to force our opinions down people's throats either especially newbies.There are a lot of
    technical details to work out in order to buy the "right" camera.Right in what sense?

    To me it's always about specifications.We all want the "best" for the little money we are
    willing to pay as I'm a cheapskate..haha. After you work out the specs. then comes
    the handling or ergonomics/ease of use but this is secondary to specs as when you
    work within a small budget you actually don't have much choice but to accept the camera
    as it is but rest assured the design have been carefully thought out by the manufacturer.
    They want a saleable product.

    At first when you said that your budget is between $1 - 1.5K I thought ah.. this person
    wants a good first camera but when you said you are using a Xiaome smartphone then it
    means you are a frugal person who don't spend frivolously.You are circumspect.
    I do understand the expression " You get what you pay for", chinese equivalent is
    "Pay 1 cent, get 1 cent's worth".

    OK..back to the nitty gritty of camera selection.I can honestly say with your budget you
    need not compromise and still get the camera new.You just need to know what's available
    and the type and requirements of the pictures you want to shoot.I'll bet you'll say a
    little bit of everything..haha.How is a newbie suppose to know what @#$%&! camera?
    The wise master will say "Do your reasearch" or aquire the knowledge and make an informed
    choice/decision.Again how does a newbie do that in a short span of time like eg. "I'm
    flying off on holiday so..how?".

    1. Firstly sensor size and resolution.In fact the majority of picture makers
    are smartphone and point-n-shoot camera users.Can they do the job? Very much so.
    P-n-S cameras can print up to 10 X 12 inches if you want to hang on the wall but majority
    keep them in their PCs or burn them on recordable media to do slide shows for friends
    and relatives plus share them online.We won't talk about DSLRs as they are big and heavy
    although APSC sensors in compact bodies like Sony Nex/ Alpha bodies are another choice if
    you so want that extra resolution and quality.Still possible with your said budget.

    2.M4/3 for enthusiasts who want a small,lighter package to bring along on holiday or
    carry with them to roam the streets although not necessarily lighter on their financial
    pockets.For landscape with kit lens/zoom 14-42mm or 12-50mm, 35mm equivalent 28-84mm,
    24-100mm respectively.At the wide angle end it's not much of a problem as greater
    depth of field (DOF) and detail/sharpness are inherent at wide angles for outdoor and
    indoor lighting situations.

    Now comes the perculiar "limitation" of M4/3 format,say from 20mm to short telephoto
    that's portraiture territory and you want to have the nice blurry background popularly
    termed as "bokeh" to isolate your subject be it a plate of food, lovely girlfriend/wife
    or beloved child/pet the widest F3.5 may not render as nice an effect as full frame or APSC
    sensors can for that professional look.This is where the wide aperture prime lens come to
    the rescue at extra cost of course.Even then a little insider info will greatly extend
    the effectiveness of your prime lens.That is the range of ISO and shutter speed available
    on particular M4/3 models.The base ISo on M4/3 sensors is 200 ISO but with software it can
    go down to 100 ISO. In so doing you will get to open at least 1 stop wider and in
    conjuction with a top shutter speed of 8000th/sec in daylight scenes as inverse
    relationship with ISO. So choose a camera that can go down to 100 ISo and have a
    top speed of 8000th/sec.Most higher end models have it but check the specs.
    l
    Another tip regarding bokeh and balancing flash with available/ambient light scenes is
    maximum flash sync speed and most high end models go up to 1/250sec.This will be an
    advantage when balancing ambient light with fill flash to light up shadow areas.If you
    only have 1/160 or 1/180sec.you may not be able to do so resulting in subject not
    sufficiently illuminated.Of course you can light entirely by flash but that will produce
    hard light or shadows which don't look nice and the background can be in darkness.

    Your shortlist example of olympus EM5 mk1, this comes with built in viewfinder.There are
    the more compact equvialent EPL5 or EP series.Same sensor and processor chip but without
    viewfinder.You can add viewfinder as extra to it's accessory port.The latest compact is
    EPL7 and possibly EPL8 on the way.There's the Panasonic/Lumix line of cameras to choose
    from too.GH (evf), GX ( no evf).The choices are plentiful.You may need to choose one
    model or two behind current ones if new but if you are not aversed to buying used you can
    have good deals and savings.A camera body and kit lens is possible.Just be patient and
    look out for good deals.

    As for me I got 2 M4/3 cameras used..EPL1 and Lumix G1 1st generation yes but they still
    work and only 12Mp but it's good enough for me.I do have apsc Dslr and 8 vintage manual
    lenses.1 autofocus for apsc and kit lens for M4/3.The lenses from flea market all have
    fungus but I can clean them and live with them.They include 2 prime 50mm,various short zooms,
    1 wide angle,1 macro and a 300mm prime but they all double in focal lenth when mated
    with M4/3 with suitable adapters.Also have 3 vintage auto flashes and I check that their
    voltage is 5 volts or less so that they don't kill the digital cameras..haha.
    Can I make the pictures I want? You bet.It's a mindset thing know? The best thing is my
    budget is less than yours. Take care.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Newbie needing advice, please

    Quote Originally Posted by one eye jack View Post
    You are not wrong to want a system camera ie: having interchangeable lenses.We have to be
    sensitive to the person who ask these questions about what cameras are suitable.Don't want
    to force our opinions down people's throats either especially newbies.There are a lot of
    technical details to work out in order to buy the "right" camera.Right in what sense?

    To me it's always about specifications.We all want the "best" for the little money we are
    willing to pay as I'm a cheapskate..haha. After you work out the specs. then comes
    the handling or ergonomics/ease of use but this is secondary to specs as when you
    work within a small budget you actually don't have much choice but to accept the camera
    as it is but rest assured the design have been carefully thought out by the manufacturer.
    They want a saleable product.

    At first when you said that your budget is between $1 - 1.5K I thought ah.. this person
    wants a good first camera but when you said you are using a Xiaome smartphone then it
    means you are a frugal person who don't spend frivolously.You are circumspect.
    I do understand the expression " You get what you pay for", chinese equivalent is
    "Pay 1 cent, get 1 cent's worth".

    OK..back to the nitty gritty of camera selection.I can honestly say with your budget you
    need not compromise and still get the camera new.You just need to know what's available
    and the type and requirements of the pictures you want to shoot.I'll bet you'll say a
    little bit of everything..haha.How is a newbie suppose to know what @#$%&! camera?
    The wise master will say "Do your reasearch" or aquire the knowledge and make an informed
    choice/decision.Again how does a newbie do that in a short span of time like eg. "I'm
    flying off on holiday so..how?".

    1. Firstly sensor size and resolution.In fact the majority of picture makers
    are smartphone and point-n-shoot camera users.Can they do the job? Very much so.
    P-n-S cameras can print up to 10 X 12 inches if you want to hang on the wall but majority
    keep them in their PCs or burn them on recordable media to do slide shows for friends
    and relatives plus share them online.We won't talk about DSLRs as they are big and heavy
    although APSC sensors in compact bodies like Sony Nex/ Alpha bodies are another choice if
    you so want that extra resolution and quality.Still possible with your said budget.

    2.M4/3 for enthusiasts who want a small,lighter package to bring along on holiday or
    carry with them to roam the streets although not necessarily lighter on their financial
    pockets.For landscape with kit lens/zoom 14-42mm or 12-50mm, 35mm equivalent 28-84mm,
    24-100mm respectively.At the wide angle end it's not much of a problem as greater
    depth of field (DOF) and detail/sharpness are inherent at wide angles for outdoor and
    indoor lighting situations.

    Now comes the perculiar "limitation" of M4/3 format,say from 20mm to short telephoto
    that's portraiture territory and you want to have the nice blurry background popularly
    termed as "bokeh" to isolate your subject be it a plate of food, lovely girlfriend/wife
    or beloved child/pet the widest F3.5 may not render as nice an effect as full frame or APSC
    sensors can for that professional look.This is where the wide aperture prime lens come to
    the rescue at extra cost of course.Even then a little insider info will greatly extend
    the effectiveness of your prime lens.That is the range of ISO and shutter speed available
    on particular M4/3 models.The base ISo on M4/3 sensors is 200 ISO but with software it can
    go down to 100 ISO. In so doing you will get to open at least 1 stop wider and in
    conjuction with a top shutter speed of 8000th/sec in daylight scenes as inverse
    relationship with ISO. So choose a camera that can go down to 100 ISo and have a
    top speed of 8000th/sec.Most higher end models have it but check the specs.
    l
    Another tip regarding bokeh and balancing flash with available/ambient light scenes is
    maximum flash sync speed and most high end models go up to 1/250sec.This will be an
    advantage when balancing ambient light with fill flash to light up shadow areas.If you
    only have 1/160 or 1/180sec.you may not be able to do so resulting in subject not
    sufficiently illuminated.Of course you can light entirely by flash but that will produce
    hard light or shadows which don't look nice and the background can be in darkness.

    Your shortlist example of olympus EM5 mk1, this comes with built in viewfinder.There are
    the more compact equvialent EPL5 or EP series.Same sensor and processor chip but without
    viewfinder.You can add viewfinder as extra to it's accessory port.The latest compact is
    EPL7 and possibly EPL8 on the way.There's the Panasonic/Lumix line of cameras to choose
    from too.GH (evf), GX ( no evf).The choices are plentiful.You may need to choose one
    model or two behind current ones if new but if you are not aversed to buying used you can
    have good deals and savings.A camera body and kit lens is possible.Just be patient and
    look out for good deals.

    As for me I got 2 M4/3 cameras used..EPL1 and Lumix G1 1st generation yes but they still
    work and only 12Mp but it's good enough for me.I do have apsc Dslr and 8 vintage manual
    lenses.1 autofocus for apsc and kit lens for M4/3.The lenses from flea market all have
    fungus but I can clean them and live with them.They include 2 prime 50mm,various short zooms,
    1 wide angle,1 macro and a 300mm prime but they all double in focal lenth when mated
    with M4/3 with suitable adapters.Also have 3 vintage auto flashes and I check that their
    voltage is 5 volts or less so that they don't kill the digital cameras..haha.
    Can I make the pictures I want? You bet.It's a mindset thing know? The best thing is my
    budget is less than yours. Take care.
    Haha thanks for the insights! You're quite perceptive in saying that to an extent it also boils down to wants in making such a decision given that the universe of cameras is so big.

    Rather than being wary however I like to think that I do try to be prudent; I tend to like to try and read and (unabashedly, or outright buey pai seh) ask questions to the death before I make that decision. Sometimes if I am not convinced despite all that asking I don't go ahead even. Heh. But yes, generally I do try to be a bit of a 'jit chiam jee jit chiam huay' person also.

    I do realise having read (now quite a few) reviews that getting a system means that I will at some point in time have to spend more to get better and fasted lenses if - like in your example of the creamier bokeh - I want to get better shots. For me that's quite the reason I want to get a system rather than a compact/fixed lens zoom. It's the whole journey of using what I have first, maximising the capabilities before buying new lens - and then if I do want to take it further, there will be a day in which I realise that the m43 system cannot support what I want and consider getting a DSLR etc. But if not, then hey it's a good lesson learnt and I still have the system. If after 6 months I decide that photog is completely not what I want to do, then I would've spent that few hundreds more (versus a compact) for the option.

    So now there's sorta the option among: Fuji XT10, 2nd hand EM-5 MK1 or (as I discovered visiting Best Denki yesterday that it's out on our shores) EM-10 MK2.

    In taking into consideration the reviews I've read and the pieces of advice from seniors here, the XT10 has much to love, with good kit lens and pleasing SOOC images, which is what I *think* I like. However this busts my budget, and I'm not sure its worth the difference in price when compared to the other two.

    Reading about the EM10 II it does seem like its promising, with a (stepped down?) 5 axis in body stabilisation, improved EVF (though still lower than the EM5 MII, but not like I can tell since I have no comparison), AF targeting pad and electronic shutter. Most importantly it fits my budget, even with both kit lenses.

    Your views please? Sorry if I'm extremely long winded here ...

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  13. #33
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    Default Re: Newbie needing advice, please

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    Actually in the end it boils down to budget. In terms of flexibility, advanced compacts like LX100 gives you the most flexibility for the money. You get a zoom lens, and at the same time get good image quality (m43 sensor). But compact camera lenses, although flexible, are not as good at specific purposes due to design. models to look at for flexibility panasonic LX100, canon G series. For fixed lens street X100s, ricoh GR. For birding or sports nikon P600 series give you super telezoom.

    For interchangaeble lens systems, you can get flexibility and optical quality through different lenses but at great cost. You want to try a new lens you have to buy it. Some lenses like ultrawide lenses are not cheap (over 1k even for m43). Try getting a f2.8 telezoom and you are looking at 1.5 to 2k. If you want to go system, budget at least 5 to 10k for a decent setup flexible enough with good image quality. If you are just going for variable aperture or lower end zoom lenses to save costs, might as well just get an advanced compact camera.

    Cameras nowadays get outdated very fast. No point getting a system when you are still learning at a beginning stage and not pushing it. Remember, the photographer makes the image not the camera. Better iq is almost unnoticable at viewing sizes, and in the end what makes a good picture is how your thought process. Thr camera quality does not make your picture great.
    Appreciate your views! For some strange reason I am strangely attracted to the idea of an interchangeable system, and this is the classic example in my opinion of the irrational man at play. I do see your point about compacts having the bang for the buck, but am also seduced by the idea of being able to play around with the various tools available.

    If I may ask: assuming an individual starts off by getting a compact, how should be decide to 'move up' to an interchangeable system without having, and by extension knowing what the system can do? Please do not get me wrong, I am not trying to be rude, just asking aloud because it seems that there's something I'm missing.

    Thanks!

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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cokiee View Post

    Appreciate your views! For some strange reason I am strangely attracted to the idea of an interchangeable system, and this is the classic example in my opinion of the irrational man at play. I do see your point about compacts having the bang for the buck, but am also seduced by the idea of being able to play around with the various tools available.

    If I may ask: assuming an individual starts off by getting a compact, how should be decide to 'move up' to an interchangeable system without having, and by extension knowing what the system can do? Please do not get me wrong, I am not trying to be rude, just asking aloud because it seems that there's something I'm missing.

    Thanks!

    Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk
    There is no right or wrong. Just what works for you or not. I personally started with a prosumer camera but i had lots of film slrs that belong to my dad I can play with. my first dslr is also a hand me down from my dad.

    When you start shooting more amd and more, you will come to a point where you wish you have more of this or that. You may be shooting landscapes and wish you can shoot wider. You may be shooting portraits and you may wish you can shoot at larger apertures to get blurer background. You may also wish you have more zoom. You may wish you have the ability to shoot macro better. Or higher iso at lower noise. When you start hitting these retrictions, you will know what you.actually need better.

    Honestly 1 to 1.5k is too small a budget to get a decent setup of lenses to try different things anyway. If you havr a budget of 5k then i think it is a lot more realistic to go interchabgaeble route.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Newbie needing advice, please

    Quote Originally Posted by Cokiee View Post
    I do realise having read (now quite a few) reviews that getting a system means that I will at some point in time have to spend more to get better and fasted lenses if - like in your example of the creamier bokeh - I want to get better shots. For me that's quite the reason I want to get a system rather than a compact/fixed lens zoom. It's the whole journey of using what I have first, maximising the capabilities before buying new lens - and then if I do want to take it further, there will be a day in which I realise that the m43 system cannot support what I want and consider getting a DSLR etc. But if not, then hey it's a good lesson learnt and I still have the system. If after 6 months I decide that photog is completely not what I want to do, then I would've spent that few hundreds more (versus a compact) for the option.

    So now there's sorta the option among: Fuji XT10, 2nd hand EM-5 MK1 or (as I discovered visiting Best Denki yesterday that it's out on our shores) EM-10 MK2.
    I think you have read enough reviews and made up your mind. And I don't see any problems with your decision. Now to get your camera liao

    Then comes another can of worms hehe... where to buy? What else to get at the beginning?

    Advice you to go the Fuji or Olympus showroom or bigger electronic retail chains to handle the cameras and see which one you prefer. Then check out recommended stores here, many are around Funan / Peninsular area, to compare prices, they are usually lower than the recommended retail prices (and may put some of your options within your budget... unfortunately maybe because of their tight margins many don't let you handle the cameras unless you are confirm buying). In Singapore climate I advice minimum budgeting another $100+ to get a dry cabinet to store your new toy

    As a last straw effort to promote advanced compacts - If you buy one, you can still learn the basics with it, and when you do get an interchageable lens system later, the compact can still be a backup. Many pros have an advanced compact (especially now that the quality has improved a lot and they may be even better than an interchangeable lens system with basic kit lens) so they still can have a high quality camera to bring around when they don't want to carry around the bulk.

    Happy shopping

  16. #36

    Default Re: Newbie needing advice, please

    for 1-1.5 he can get a decent body and a decent normal zoom lens. It may not be top of the line but it will rather good Starting setup.

    Following are merely my two cents and not meant to offend anyone.


    I too started with a proconsumer camera - Canon G3 which cost more then 1k then. But price of mirrorless camera has comedown so much that I could buy a mirrorless camera with a body and two lens for less then what I spend on a compact camera. In December 2014 I bought the OMD EM10 new for 780. It comes with the body, 14-42 kit lens 45mm 1.8 prime 50 dollar ntuc voucher. So my effective cost of the camera body and kit lens is less then 550 as I sold the prime lens. Great pc fair deals at funan.

    This at a time where people are selling the second hand em10 body alone for 600 in bns.

    Personally, I would not spend money on an advance compact (e.g. Sony rx100 M4)which could cost up to 900 sgd new unless I want it for size and for a special function .

    Em10 wasn't that big to begin with. It is rather petite imho.

    Camera is a very personal item buy something u like. Photography can be an expensive hobby so buy wisely.work with what you have and work around the limitations.
    Last edited by DSolZ; 6th January 2016 at 09:31 PM.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Newbie needing advice, please

    There is no right or wrong.. what to get. If you feel like getting the top of the line stuff or the mid level stuff. You can. Go ahead. If that way. Will make you enjoy your hobby more. Sure. Do it.

    But what most of us always suggest for new hands are to get the most basic ones. Why? Because they cost lesser and there are less things to confuse you.
    I think it's always good to learn from the basic...then slowly explore more. Having said that, Yes.. you can get something more advance also..then slowly explore them too. Nothing wrong. It's really up to you.

    Another reason why we suggest new hands to get basic ones is because.. We dontknow whether few weeks or months down the road.. Will you still enjoy it as much as now. We are trying to save you some money here.. and also.. since you are new.. its good you explore and find what really works for you and what you really want.. then go get it and get more out of it. (The gear only works as good as you are).

    It's quite pointless and abit wasted if you get a expensive/good gear right from the start but doesnt know how to use it well. But again.. If that's what make you happy and make you kick start to take pictures. Then go for it.


    It's no point taking in so much information and not working on it. Go get something. When you are out with your gear. That's when you learn more. Not by not getting anything and keep posting question online.. The replies and comments are starting to go in circles already.

    Right now.What MOST IMPORTANT is to go get something and start shooting. Period. Thereafter...feel free to ask more question if you had any.
    Cheers..

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Newbie needing advice, please

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    There is no right or wrong. Just what works for you or not. I personally started with a prosumer camera but i had lots of film slrs that belong to my dad I can play with. my first dslr is also a hand me down from my dad.

    When you start shooting more amd and more, you will come to a point where you wish you have more of this or that. You may be shooting landscapes and wish you can shoot wider. You may be shooting portraits and you may wish you can shoot at larger apertures to get blurer background. You may also wish you have more zoom. You may wish you have the ability to shoot macro better. Or higher iso at lower noise. When you start hitting these retrictions, you will know what you.actually need better.

    Honestly 1 to 1.5k is too small a budget to get a decent setup of lenses to try different things anyway. If you havr a budget of 5k then i think it is a lot more realistic to go interchabgaeble route.
    Totally respect that - thank you for your insights!

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  19. #39
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    Default Re: Newbie needing advice, please

    Quote Originally Posted by thoongeng View Post

    Then comes another can of worms hehe... where to buy? What else to get at the beginning?
    Lol that's very true! Exactly the thought process currently.

    Quote Originally Posted by thoongeng View Post

    Advice you to go the Fuji or Olympus showroom or bigger electronic retail chains to handle the cameras and see which one you prefer. Then check out recommended stores here, many are around Funan / Peninsular area, to compare prices, they are usually lower than the recommended retail prices (and may put some of your options within your budget... unfortunately maybe because of their tight margins many don't let you handle the cameras unless you are confirm buying). In Singapore climate I advice minimum budgeting another $100+ to get a dry cabinet to store your new toy
    Thanks! Will do that - that's also a priority for me as advised by many earlier, to have a feel of the shortlisted ones and see what I like handling best.


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  20. #40
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    Default Re: Newbie needing advice, please

    Quote Originally Posted by TWmilkteaTW View Post
    There is no right or wrong.. what to get. If you feel like getting the top of the line stuff or the mid level stuff. You can. Go ahead. If that way. Will make you enjoy your hobby more. Sure. Do it.

    But what most of us always suggest for new hands are to get the most basic ones. Why? Because they cost lesser and there are less things to confuse you.
    I think it's always good to learn from the basic...then slowly explore more. Having said that, Yes.. you can get something more advance also..then slowly explore them too. Nothing wrong. It's really up to you.

    Another reason why we suggest new hands to get basic ones is because.. We dontknow whether few weeks or months down the road.. Will you still enjoy it as much as now. We are trying to save you some money here.. and also.. since you are new.. its good you explore and find what really works for you and what you really want.. then go get it and get more out of it. (The gear only works as good as you are).

    It's quite pointless and abit wasted if you get a expensive/good gear right from the start but doesnt know how to use it well. But again.. If that's what make you happy and make you kick start to take pictures. Then go for it.


    It's no point taking in so much information and not working on it. Go get something. When you are out with your gear. That's when you learn more. Not by not getting anything and keep posting question online.. The replies and comments are starting to go in circles already.

    Right now.What MOST IMPORTANT is to go get something and start shooting. Period. Thereafter...feel free to ask more question if you had any.
    Cheers..
    Haha yes I got the message here ... And agree with you. Frankly all the inputs of the seniors here have been quite valuable in helping someone new like me weigh the pros and cons - this despite a strong current of calling for the prosumer compact as a first camera, and with good reason too. So thank you!

    Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk

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