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Thread: Beauties of Nikon versus Canon (Film + Digital)

  1. #101
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    (cont'd from before)

    Do u really think that they know how much to price the EOS 1Ds & Kodak DC14? They all price it and then hope to see what the sales figures end up being!

    Really? I wish it were all that simple. When you have blown millions on R&D and production setups, part of an ordinary prudent man of business' actions would be to do market research, to get an active team of experts together to try to determine the best pricing point with regards to the competition and what the market will tolerate. As well as maximising profits, not necessarily the same as maximising sales. Of course they don't always get it right, it's far from an exact science, but they do make far more of an effort than you are suggesting,

    The shortage of cameras is typical. The EOS1D was very very thin on the ground when it first came out. I know of several Canon users at the World Cup who did not receive their second 1Ds in time for that event. The Nikon D1 was thin on the ground for ages. As was the D1x and the D1h.

    Probably because of another market factor. Demand is strongest when a product is first introduced. An ordinary prudent man of business also doesn't go about keeping his new technological marvel under wraps just so that he can stockpile 50 million units so he can meet initial demand. He decides to ship units for sale when he has a reasonable quantity and then keeps the production line running to continue output.

    Besides telling me to buy the (85mm?) tilt and shift lens,

    Using Nikon and Canon has you confused.

    he was also telling me about the foresight of his Japanese CEO etc. in implementing the EOS system in the 80s.

    Firstly, that's debatable. But I won't go into that, point conceded. Secondly, he would say that wouldn't he?

    It was the equivalent of aircraft fly-by-wire technology but airplane enthusiasts can take it up with me another day.

    Like Nikon messed about with autofocus with the F3AF. Like Nikon messed about with Vibration Reduction in their P&S a year before Canon produced an IS lens. Like Nikon came up with a truly viable digital SLR 2 and a bit years before Canon came out with theirs. Which in digital terms, is an absolute age.

    I wonder if the Nikon CEO wouldn't also say it was great foresight implementing the F mount back in 1959 or whenever it was implemented. Somehow it wouldn't surprise me if he did.

    Show us the numbers.

    I have done. I have thrown UK and European numbers (the latter to a lesser extent), I have seen the Singapore and US figures referred to by people before you. In fact I think I brought in the US figures, so I am considering both sides.

    On the other hand, I'm waiting for figures from you. I'm seeing opinions from a Canon President, and conjecture on production costs which in all honesty no one really can quantify (I don't deny that you're probably right, but you're not giving figures strictly speaking either).

  2. #102

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    Ur ignorance is matched only by your arrogance, childish remarks and your propensity to rub people the wrong way.

    Such is your track record on this forum, not just this thread.

    Tsk tsk tsk...

    If I've waited so long to reply, its only because I've got better things to do than to read ur typically long winded posts.

    But its the long weekend this part of the world now...

    1) Speaking of this part of the world, when I spoke of objective discussions and use of numbers, I mentioned something very important:

    "GET AN E-QUOTE"!!!!

    Who cares about ur figures on the other side of the planet?

    Like it matters that Nikon costs the same as Canon in UK & Europe. At twice or more the price in Singapore, HK & US??? Duh?

    People on this forum wouldn't buy anything outside of S'pore unless its HK or the US simply because those places have prices that mirror that in Singapore, maybe marginally cheaper.

    Its what they call garbage in garbage out, ur choice of figures.

    GET AN E-QUOTE to get ur bearings! Or do I have to do that for you to tell u that prices of specifically the most popular top of the line Canon L lenses (especially zoom) can be 20% or more cheaper than Nikon AFS.

    Or does ur limited internet access allow only winding posts but not e-quotes.

    2) I find ur barbed insults of a senior management of a major camera manufacturer in poor taste.

    I happen to find quoting the President of Canon Singapore a lot more credible than you quoting yourself like what u typically do.

    I learnt in 10 mins of speaking with him what you obviously cannot and will take a long time to fathom:

    i) That whatever resources a company has, all that R&D, market analysis and knowledge goes merely into a forecast, which goes into the marketing strategy, which is effectively a guestimate and best effort attempt to predict the sales.

    The proof is in the pudding - only when the sales figures come in do u know whether u've succeeded/failed/made a mistake.

    Or maybe u're too muddled in the head to realise that this happens in the business world all the time?

    One does not have to be a rocket scientist to know that when demand far exceeds supply, pricing has a lot to do with it.

    Competitive pressure in the digital photography world contributed to this scenario playing out and gladly for once, consumers benefitted and there was an outlet for the pent up demand.

    ii) In the really embryonic stage of the digital revolution, expect to see a lot more missteps by camera manufacturers.

    Will the production line of the 14 mega-pixel Kodak DSLR be able to keep up with demand for instance? Has it been priced too low?
    Has the EOS 1DS been priced too high?

    We may all be surprised still.

    iii) I find it very refreshing how a top executive of Canon can so humbly apologise for the "forecasting failure", when I mentioned the non-availability of the D60.

    Considering that the mistake was probably made in Canon Japan! It earned my respect immediately. Can't say the same about your opinions.

    iv) What earned me even more respect was how the Japanese gentlemen (he & his colleagues) took great effort to find out a user's opinion of both systems.

    Of course he cheekily brushed aside the competition, who wouldn't?

    & it was funny how we all had a good laugh when they pointed at my Nikon camera and showed mock disgust.

    But when the price differences was brought up, his enlightening reply pointed simply to the technology gap and the 1st mover advantage. Or do I have to explain these concepts to you as well?

    Or did u expect him to bring out an Excel Spreadsheet detailing the entire cost of manufacturing every screw, nut, bolt and USM motor?

    Something which a person blighted by blind faith to his system would never get to see. Look outside the box!

    A wonderful gentleman but I doubt u'll be able to understand, given the pedestal u put yourself on.

    3) I find it incredible that u so often disguise yourself as being objective when it shows so clearly in your biases.

    U're so obviously trying to defend your choice of camera system like ur religion was insulted.

    i) Justifying the high price of camera products - who does that anyway?

    I've never seen a consumer trying to say "Hey, my camera system is more expensive...its a good thing...". What rubbish! This is classic cognitive dissonance.

    Everybody's equipment inventory represents locked up working capital that can be otherwise redeployed for other more productive uses.

    So what if higher purchase prices come with the small consolation of higher resale value? Its still valuable working capital stuck in a dry cabinet!

    Consumers should recognise that regarding their photography purchases, if a smaller working capital investment can do the same job with the same quality, its time to band together on the issue. Not go into denial. That's an ostrich-sticking-its-head-into- the-sand-mentality.

    ii) & all that was discussed was only the price disparity that all Nikon users have complained about.

    I remember us complaining about Nikon AFS prices a couple of years back during the Asiaphoto days when they were first launched. It was also discussed when Nikon sold direct to the retail stores instead of Shiriro. Nothing much has changed.

    Only when people recognise the considerable disparity and puts pressure on the powers that be (by voting with their feet? or thru lobbying voices on forums?) will anything really change in the long run.

    Unfortunately, u prefer to put ur head in a sack in denial.

    iii) As a small matter of comfort, didn't I say that both systems give excellent optical performance?

    Its not about whether Canon or Nikon is better, when there are so many other objective issues to consider.

    Like the favourite Singaporean topic - price & value.

    4) & that thing about IS/VR being applicable only on certain classes of lenses?

    What logic is that? U keep saying u've mentioned it many times but illogical is illogical whichever u put it.

    Tsk... tsk... tsk...

  3. #103

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    Originally posted by long
    Ur ignorance is matched only by your arrogance, childish remarks and your propensity to rub people the wrong way.
    The adage about pointing a finger at someone and having 3 fingers pointing back at oneself runs very true here.

  4. #104
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    Originally posted by long
    Ur ignorance is matched only by your arrogance, childish remarks and your propensity to rub people the wrong way.
    I have a propensity to rub people the wrong way?

    Sorry, but I haven't as yet degenerated into below the belt personal attacks, and as yet have refrained from saying that you are ignorant, arrogant or childish. Or that you rub people the wrong way.

    So, like I said, sorry, I should have said it a lot sooner. Better late than never. You are ignorant, childish, arrogant, and have a tendancy to rub people the wrong way. Not least because you seem to think name calling and personal attacks are a good thing to include in a public forum. At least I never stooped that low.

    Yes I know I have a tendency to rub some people the wrong way. That's because it's human nature for people to not appreciate it when people suggest that they are wrong.

    Such is your track record on this forum, not just this thread.

    I've had it. Honestly. I ask NOW for all the people out there who cannot stand me, stand up and be counted. I see five names and I'm off, see if I care. See my track record, go read all my posts. Aside from having responding to your comments and tried to prove them wrong, which some people evidently cannot take, I have not resorted to calling people ignorant, childish, arrogant, or abrasive. Unlike someone else I can think of.

    My track record? Try the posts earlier in this thread. No arguments, no name calling, and good reasoned debate. Then you come along. What does that suggest to you?

    If I've waited so long to reply, its only because I've got better things to do than to read ur typically long winded posts.

    I can add insulting to that list now as well. Calling me long winded, and insinuating that I have nothing better to do. More personal attacks? Shocking.

    "GET AN E-QUOTE"!!!!

    Who cares about ur figures on the other side of the planet?


    Firstly. I never denied your e-quotes. Go read my posts.

    Second. Using YOUR logic, who cares about your figures on the other side of the planet (in Singapore)? I'm trying to take the international scene into account. You're asking me to consider Singapore only. At least I'm being fair in considering the overall picture; I'm not asking you to look at the UK only.

    Like it matters that Nikon costs the same as Canon in UK & Europe. At twice or more the price in Singapore, HK & US??? Duh?

    No, it doesn't matter. Nothing matters except what's important to you. Remember again I considered all those places you mentioned, bar HK which was not brought into the discussion at any point.

    I'm trying to be objective and consider all factors. On the other hand, you only seem to give a toss about what affects you. I am trying to analyse why it affects you on a wider scale. Of course, as we've already established your ignorance (your word, not mine), obviously you fail to see any of this.

    People on this forum wouldn't buy anything outside of S'pore unless its HK or the US simply because those places have prices that mirror that in Singapore, maybe marginally cheaper.

    I don't deny that, I never did. I'm just TRYING TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF IT IN A DISCUSSIVE MANNER. I'm not saying that people are going to buy from the UK, I'm just considering alternatives to your theory.

    In fact, I never even said that I was right, I was just proposing alternative theories; there was plenty of maybes in my argument. So even the sniff of there being an alternative to your own proposed line of argument and you get all defensive and start calling names?

    GET AN E-QUOTE to get ur bearings! Or do I have to do that for you to tell u that prices of specifically the most popular top of the line Canon L lenses (especially zoom) can be 20% or more cheaper than Nikon AFS.

    Okay. Fine. So they are, and I never said they weren't. More importantly, I don't need to get an equote, because if you've been reading the thread then you'll also know that it isn't necessary because that information has already been provided. Apparently someone doesn't read the thread.

    So then, that really does beggar the question, WHY ARE YOU STILL USING NIKON THEN?!?

    Do I somehow get the impression of sour grapes because you feel you made the wrong decision? Well I got news for you, in addition to being ignorant, arrogant, childish, and abrasive, I am also apathetic. I don't care.

    Quit whinging about your equipment. I use Nikon too and I live with my choice. If it bugs you so much, why don't you cross over to Canon then, particularly since you now have good friends near the top of the Canon hierarchy.

    2) I find ur barbed insults of a senior management of a major camera manufacturer in poor taste.

    Barbed insults, what barbed insults? All I said was, to put it in plain English, that a senior Canon person is always going to be pro Canon. As would a senior Nikon person. That is a given in life.

    I happen to find quoting the President of Canon Singapore a lot more credible than you quoting yourself like what u typically do.

    Quite probably, but I wouldn't trust him as an impartial source. No court of law would trust a party with interests in the issue at hand.

    I learnt in 10 mins of speaking with him what you obviously cannot and will take a long time to fathom:

    Great. So you know a lot more than me. Go ahead and think that.

    I'm not bothering with the rest of the post, this is getting ridiculous.

    I really don't know why things end up like this. You want to have a debate, that's fine. You want to have an argument even, that's fine.

    But your last post has just called me, essentially, a fool. That was completely uncalled for, at least that's what I think.

    Am I alone?

    Postscript: Please excuse this post. Anyone who has been reading my posts over the past will know this is really not normal, but it's not often that I get this antagonised.

  5. #105
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    Originally posted by long
    Ur ignorance is matched only by your arrogance, childish remarks and your propensity to rub people the wrong way.
    Gentlemen.

    I propose that both parties step away from this thread. It's obvious both parties have their own views when it comes to certain issues and furthering this argument/thread would honestly serve no purpose.

    And one note Long

    Don't make assumptions and accusations as above. I don't see any "childish" remarks by Jed as yet. Not in this thread nor anywhere else. Just because someone doesn't agree with your point of views doesn't mean that he is arrogant/ignorant.

    If I've waited so long to reply, its only because I've got better things to do than to read ur typically long winded posts... [content snipped for posting purpose]...Tsk tsk tsk
    How does what you have written strike you? Matured? Level headed? Arrogant? Condescending? I'm not pointing fingers at your postings. All i am asking you is to take some time to reflect upon what you wrote. If someone had spoken to you the very same way you have wrote what you did, i'm pretty sure wouldn't like it all that much.

    Either you try to reply with a post that is level headed and mature without resorting to person bashing, or you simply walk away from the thread. There is no prize here in being right.

    And honestly, i would just like to put this across to everyone who feels the urge to ask Nikon vs Canon questions.

    Everyone tend to say, it's not about the camera, but the photographer. So, my point here is this. If it isn't about the camera, then cease this pointless argument.

    Is a Digital or SLR system better?
    Is Nikon or Canon better?

    These are dead horses.

    Stop flogging it.

    If anyone of you honestly see a need to enlighten us with your views, do so sensibly, and not let it denegerate into something personal or into a flame war.
    Last edited by Wolfgang; 3rd November 2002 at 01:23 PM.
    --
    "High Wired, Dream Sired"

  6. #106
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    Wow, this thread has finally degenerated. It's a ClubSNAP record to be able to hold such a controversial topic like this without burning for 6 pages.

    I'll have to lock this thread before it degenerates further.

    Regards
    CK

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