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Thread: HAZE AND ITS PROBLEMS....

  1. #41

    Default Re: HAZE AND ITS PROBLEMS....

    Quote Originally Posted by donut88 View Post
    Never trust our neighbours
    I don't agree.

    There are changes with the new leaders.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yappy View Post

    I don't agree.

    There are changes with the new leaders.
    Leopards never change its spots.

    New leaders, so what?

    Haze started in 1997 until now. How many leaders have they changed since then?

    The problem is their mindset and cultural thinking, bro.

    It goes the same way for MY. how many leaders changed already since Dr. M? Now Najib is facing major scandal and corruption issues.
    Last edited by donut88; 1st October 2015 at 09:44 AM.

  3. #43
    Member Bukitimah's Avatar
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    Default Re: HAZE AND ITS PROBLEMS....

    Quote Originally Posted by diver-hloc View Post
    I very much would like to know what 'Actions' do you suggest we should/could/would take if Indonesia really take 3yrs or more to settle this burning problem ??
    That is the key to our current situation. Do we just sit back and beg? The government got to lead and get everybody to be aware the products and vendors who have direct or indirect connection with these people and stop buying them. In fact we should ban their product and choose alternatives.

    Get international support to ban them too. Something along this line or whatever actions. publish in the local paper daily updates on such products. Surely it is going to translate to some actions?

  4. #44
    Senior Member Nikonzen's Avatar
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    Default Re: HAZE AND ITS PROBLEMS....

    It will probably stop (as we know it now) when there is nothing left to burn and no one can breath anymore. Typical human nearsightedness. Well then some say drought and/or global warming or whatever multitude of excuses can be made up??? Ahem as Hornblower would say.

    Ecosystems not healthy apex predators suffer the most.
    Last edited by Nikonzen; 1st October 2015 at 10:26 AM.
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  5. #45
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    Default Re: HAZE AND ITS PROBLEMS....

    I say we research and build a upscale version of this ................... I don't think it will cause us $60 million .......

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMyKYj5JPTo
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  6. #46

    Default Re: HAZE AND ITS PROBLEMS....

    Quote Originally Posted by donut88 View Post
    Leopards never change its spots.

    New leaders, so what?

    Haze started in 1997 until now. How many leaders have they changed since then?

    The problem is their mindset and cultural thinking, bro.
    He visited the ground.

    His ministers tone down recently.

    I think he is prepared to solve the problem.

    That is a good beginning!

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yappy View Post

    He visited the ground.

    His ministers tone down recently.

    I think he is prepared to solve the problem.

    That is a good beginning!
    U know what is wayang?

  8. #48
    Moderator diver-hloc's Avatar
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    Default Re: HAZE AND ITS PROBLEMS....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bukitimah View Post
    That is the key to our current situation. Do we just sit back and beg? The government got to lead and get everybody to be aware the products and vendors who have direct or indirect connection with these people and stop buying them. In fact we should ban their product and choose alternatives.

    1st problem would be how offend Indonesian themselves have refuse to release data regarding which companies are involved in the burning (most likely due to politics and/or politicians)...

    2nd... Plantation companies are blaming the small scale farmers and small scale farmers are blaming the plantation companies... Indonesia have not provided proof to who is guilty...

    3rd... knowing Singaporean... how possible do you think companies will 'Boycott' a vendor or products should it hits their pocket in terms of higher price ?? Well... maybe when its hazy... but when blue skies return... profits would be their 1st interests...


    Quote Originally Posted by Bukitimah View Post
    international support to ban them too. Something along this line or whatever actions. publish in the local paper daily updates on such products. Surely it is going to translate to some actions?

    International support... ?? Sounds good...

    Till Indonesian politicians felt our tiny Red Dot once again embarrassed Big Abang... and we can guess what sh*t will follows after that...
    Last edited by diver-hloc; 1st October 2015 at 02:10 PM.

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  9. #49

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    How to ban and boycott paper companies and palm oil companies

    These are basic necessities we use every day.

    U can ban paper coming from Indonesia, but that means having to buy paper from other regions like EU. The cost difference is alot!

    Palm oil is in almost every product we use daily. How to ban?

  10. #50
    Member armadillo's Avatar
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    Default Re: HAZE AND ITS PROBLEMS....

    Not to ban, but try to use product from sustainable palm oil source.
    Not many now, hope to see more in the future product that have this logo
    _____________________________________
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  11. #51

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    i be darm scare now if they built a nuclear plant ..

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by diver-hloc View Post

    1st problem would be how offend Indonesian themselves have refuse to release data regarding which companies are involved in the burning (most likely due to politics and/or politicians)...

    2nd... Plantation companies are blaming the small scale farmers and small scale farmers are blaming the plantation companies... Indonesia have not provided proof to who is guilty...

    3rd... knowing Singaporean... how possible do you think companies will 'Boycott' a vendor or products should it hits their pocket in terms of higher price ?? Well... maybe when its hazy... but when blue skies return... profits would be their 1st interests...

    International support... ?? Sounds good...

    Till Indonesian politicians felt our tiny Red Dot once again embarrassed Big Abang... and we can guess what sh*t will follows after that...
    The indo govt telling the companies "hey, everyone is complaining abt the haze. How?".

    Companies reply " OK. How much u want, to keep quiet".

    Indo govt reply "OK, I want US$xxxxxx. I keep quiet and try to delay the dousing. Boleh?"

    Both govt and companies shake hand.

    That's how business is done in Indonesia.

    The companies give a damm abt the haze. So far, no one company ever offer to pump in money or effort to help. All happily keep quiet. Why? Coz they already paid the govt undertable money......

  13. #53
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    Default Re: HAZE AND ITS PROBLEMS....

    Quote Originally Posted by donut88 View Post
    U know what is wayang?
    Nikomi Canpen Zenten :eek:
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  14. #54
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    Default Re: HAZE AND ITS PROBLEMS....

    Quote Originally Posted by diver-hloc View Post
    1st problem would be how offend Indonesian themselves have refuse to release data regarding which companies are involved in the burning (most likely due to politics and/or politicians)...

    2nd... Plantation companies are blaming the small scale farmers and small scale farmers are blaming the plantation companies... Indonesia have not provided proof to who is guilty...

    3rd... knowing Singaporean... how possible do you think companies will 'Boycott' a vendor or products should it hits their pocket in terms of higher price ?? Well... maybe when its hazy... but when blue skies return... profits would be their 1st interests...





    International support... ?? Sounds good...

    Till Indonesian politicians felt our tiny Red Dot once again embarrassed Big Abang... and we can guess what sh*t will follows after that...
    To answer your first 3 questions, our government needs to take this lead. Among others, get companies registered here to declare their links. Once they have declared, any organisation is able to prove otherwise, all fines go to that organisation as incentives for their investigation.

    Let the private help and I am sure some environmental organisation would be happy to do this as the funds will come in handy for them.

    Internationally, we indentify where the products are being sold. Publish them and shame them. If it is USA, they will not have the standing of a world leader for flip flop policies.

    Of course what I have just mentioned above is from an ordinary layman. Our very capable ministers would be able to do them in a more professional way. My simply just accepting and kept saying it is not easy for them to resolve this is not acceptable. As least they need to be open about what is their problems.

    Can we say our F16 need to fly over Indonesia because the air craft need that air space? We will look into it after the life span of the existing air crafts expired in 30 years time and we will look for something that don't need to fly pass their air space?

  15. #55

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    Palembang PSI can reached 1000 range, and yet the indo govt not doing anything or aid to help the residents. The residents said it themselves in media interviews.

    So what makes we think the indo govt bothers about us? We are only getting 200-300 PSI highest. It's peanuts to them.

  16. #56
    Moderator diver-hloc's Avatar
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    Default Re: HAZE AND ITS PROBLEMS....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bukitimah View Post
    To answer your first 3 questions, our government needs to take this lead. Among others, get companies registered here to declare their links. Once they have declared, any organisation is able to prove otherwise, all fines go to that organisation as incentives for their investigation.

    Let the private help and I am sure some environmental organisation would be happy to do this as the funds will come in handy for them.

    Isn't this what we are already doing now... charging those companies even when the Indonesian themselves have yet to do so...


    Quote Originally Posted by Bukitimah View Post
    , we indentify where the products are being sold. Publish them and shame them. If it is USA, they will not have the standing of a world leader for flip flop policies.

    Indonesia is NOT the USA... either are we... times and times again Indonesia have flip flop their policies... do they look like they care much about it ?? We also don't have the political clout like the USA, which could influence many other countries to do our will...


    Quote Originally Posted by Bukitimah View Post
    course what I have just mentioned above is from an ordinary layman. Our very capable ministers would be able to do them in a more professional way. My simply just accepting and kept saying it is not easy for them to resolve this is not acceptable. As least they need to be open about what is their problems.

    It is NOT EASY... its not easy because we, as a small nation, must do a fine balancing act between force and diplomacy... shaming Indonesia is easy... dealing with an angry Jakarta is much more difficult. How much business and trade link will be affected ?? How our security and military ties could be damage ?? How will the relationship between our two national be affected ?? Remember president Habibie... the infamous name-er of 'Tiny Red Dot'... do we want to get back to that time when the relationship between our two nation is like US & Russian during the cold war ??


    Quote Originally Posted by Bukitimah View Post
    Can we say our F16 need to fly over Indonesia because the air craft need that air space? We will look into it after the life span of the existing air crafts expired in 30 years time and we will look for something that don't need to fly pass their air space?

    This part... I have not idea what you are talking about... could you explain... thxs

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  17. #57
    Senior Member Nikonzen's Avatar
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    Default Re: HAZE AND ITS PROBLEMS....

    Wonder if international oil operations out of Jakarta have any connection to it all? Sort of makes sense and cents if you think about it from an oilman's perspective. And I ain't talking about palm oil...

    If air is that bad wonder what ocean is like???
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  18. #58

    Default Re: HAZE AND ITS PROBLEMS....

    Joko should just bundled up all those plantations CEO, Chairmen, directors and including all their families members and drop them at the hot spots, if he is serious and has the least political will to carry out the job. There is no concept of corruption in indonesia. Money is the master. They will do whatever for those who give money. That is why there is absolutely no shame for their minister to ask us for money if we want clean air because that is the norm.

  19. #59
    Member Bukitimah's Avatar
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    Default Re: HAZE AND ITS PROBLEMS....

    Quote Originally Posted by diver-hloc View Post
    Isn't this what we are already doing now... charging those companies even when the Indonesian themselves have yet to do so...

    As reported today, the haze starts in 1970 for more than 40 years. I am sure you will agree (no sure if you are born then) it wasn't that bad till the last 10 years due to the increase in plantations. We need to look into what our government 'already doing' enough? Do we wait for the next 40 years when it reaches PSI of 1000 before more are done?

    I also understand we have limitations but we would like to be kept informed the progress daily. If what we are 'already doing' would need another 10 years, then we need to know what else and how fast?

    Indonesia is NOT the USA... either are we... times and times again Indonesia have flip flop their policies... do they look like they care much about it ?? We also don't have the political clout like the USA, which could influence many other countries to do our will...


    Yes, Indonesia is not USA but they sold to countries like USA in Europe. Can't we find out where these products are being shipped? To Singapore?


    It is NOT EASY... its not easy because we, as a small nation, must do a fine balancing act between force and diplomacy... shaming Indonesia is easy... dealing with an angry Jakarta is much more difficult. How much business and trade link will be affected ?? How our security and military ties could be damage ?? How will the relationship between our two national be affected ?? Remember president Habibie... the infamous name-er of 'Tiny Red Dot'... do we want to get back to that time when the relationship between our two nation is like US & Russian during the cold war ??

    I didn't say it is going to be easy but we NEED to do something even if it means lower our economy. I also don't believe the world will like to be seen as supporting this bullying and the environmental impact is not only on us but the world. As citizen, we would like to hear direct straight to the point answers why it is so difficult to deal with this. Pressure from USA, investors, etc so that they can make money out of Singaporean health?


    This part... I have not idea what you are talking about... could you explain... thxs
    Sorry for being vague. What I am trying to say is. Indonesia says they have problems to stop the haze because they need to enough business can continue otherwise their economy or rather the rich cannot continue to pay kicks back. We also can tell them we need to do what we have to do regardless of their concerns. Is this the way to treat your neighbour?

    If Indonesia is not doing enough, we have to be proactive and start something ourself. Straits Times should provide fee front page for people like HEAT to list products that have linked and who are selling them in Singapore for a start.

    Sound drastic? well we really need to start with haze not going away soon. Next year and the year after that? sooner, our economy will be hit because why should the rich come here? They probably will stay 6 months in Singapore and the rest in their Villa somewhere else.

  20. #60
    Moderator diver-hloc's Avatar
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    Default Re: HAZE AND ITS PROBLEMS....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bukitimah View Post
    Sorry for being vague. What I am trying to say is. Indonesia says they have problems to stop the haze because they need to enough business can continue otherwise their economy or rather the rich cannot continue to pay kicks back. We also can tell them we need to do what we have to do regardless of their concerns. Is this the way to treat your neighbour?

    This is not the way to treat your 'neighbors' if both of you are of equal standing... but this is the way Nation treats another Nation, even if its your 'neighbor', if you are much bigger and stronger than him/her... and can hack care what the other person (aka, country) wants...

    Case in point

    * China don't have to give a damn what Vietnam or Philippines want regarding China's claim of South China Sea
    * USA don't have to care what the rest of the World or United Nations wants when they invaded Iraq in 2003, lying about WMD...
    * Russia didn't care what the rest of the World thinks as they annex Crimea and armed the rebels in Ukraine... sanctions or no sanctions...
    * Indonesia could hardly be concern of SG's 300 PSI when they seems hardly more concern when the PSI levels hits over 1000 in some parts of Indonesia...



    Quote Originally Posted by Bukitimah View Post
    Indonesia is not doing enough, we have to be proactive and start something ourself. Straits Times should provide fee front page for people like HEAT to list products that have linked and who are selling them in Singapore for a start.

    This is a good idea... better still, have a website that could be updated quickly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bukitimah View Post
    Sound drastic? well we really need to start with haze not going away soon. Next year and the year after that? sooner, our economy will be hit because why should the rich come here? They probably will stay 6 months in Singapore and the rest in their Villa somewhere else.

    Most likely another 10yrs from now, we'll still be facing the same problem... WHY ??

    1) There's no real political will in Indonesia, to do anything...
    2) We (Singapore) doesn't have the...
    * Market and Economy to threaten them financially
    * Political Clout or International Influence to pressure them
    * Crazy enough to use military power (NOR SHOULD WE )

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