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Thread: newfacepics

  1. #41
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    Default Re: newfacepics

    Welcome to Clubsnap too, Mpark.


    Wenplusam, hope your friend gets the pics.

  2. #42

    Default Re: newfacepics

    Quote Originally Posted by CanonUser
    Juzt sum food for thot -

    1. A model does an event and ask if photographers will be kind enough to give her pictures.

    2. A newbie photographer is doing up his portfolio and asks if models are kind enough to model for him free.

    Photographers have done (1) so many times when asked out of kindness, but has anyone stopped to ask why when situation is reversed, very little, if any, models, are willing to volunteer to do (2)?
    I see what you're getting at but (1) requires much less effort and commitment than (2), unless the model herself needs a portfolio too. In which case, it would be a situation of mutual convenience and need. The difficulty that you say photographers face here is perhaps due not to the fact that models aren't willing to volunteer to do so, but that they just don't have the chance to meet. If there could be a common platform for them to gather, then it would greatly facilitate this portfolio "favour".

    Personally, if I didn't already have a portfolio, I'd be more than willing to help out. Especially if the photographer in question has been so kind as to send me some of my events photos.

    Anyway, my sympathies are with the photographers. You guys really have it tough - so much "investment" needed just to get started and build up your portfolio! And I do agree - sometimes we tend to take your kindness for granted, so apologies if I've made any of you feel that way.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: newfacepics

    You're lucky you did not have to go through this. But just to point out, no one forced the photographers to spend so much investments and there are other ways to recover the investments than "coercing" a 15yo girl to cough out money for souvenir photos taken during an event.



    Quote Originally Posted by feine
    I see what you're getting at but (1) requires much less effort and commitment than (2), unless the model herself needs a portfolio too. In which case, it would be a situation of mutual convenience and need. The difficulty that you say photographers face here is perhaps due not to the fact that models aren't willing to volunteer to do so, but that they just don't have the chance to meet. If there could be a common platform for them to gather, then it would greatly facilitate this portfolio "favour".

    Personally, if I didn't already have a portfolio, I'd be more than willing to help out. Especially if the photographer in question has been so kind as to send me some of my events photos.

    Anyway, my sympathies are with the photographers. You guys really have it tough - so much "investment" needed just to get started and build up your portfolio! And I do agree - sometimes we tend to take your kindness for granted, so apologies if I've made any of you feel that way.

  4. #44

    Default Re: newfacepics

    This tread has been DEGRADED to a mere kopitiam talk.. so here it will be, in its right place.

  5. #45

    Default Re: newfacepics

    Quote Originally Posted by dawgbyte77
    You're lucky you did not have to go through this. But just to point out, no one forced the photographers to spend so much investments and there are other ways to recover the investments than "coercing" a 15yo girl to cough out money for souvenir photos taken during an event.

    dawg, I really think "coercing" is too harsh a word to describe the situation and the photographer's sentiment.

    It is a fact that photo taken during these public event is the photographer's property, it is also a fact that photographers (and also models) are being taken for granted/taken for a free ride/taken to the cleaners (maybe) by the market place. Hence, when someone ask a photographer for free prints, the knee jerk reaction is "why should I?"

    This is the fact, and it's sad. But is there anything we can do to make it more equitable for everyone?
    deadpoet
    my portfolio

  6. #46

    Default Re: newfacepics

    Quote Originally Posted by feine
    I see what you're getting at but (1) requires much less effort and commitment than (2), unless the model herself needs a portfolio too. In which case, it would be a situation of mutual convenience and need. The difficulty that you say photographers face here is perhaps due not to the fact that models aren't willing to volunteer to do so, but that they just don't have the chance to meet. If there could be a common platform for them to gather, then it would greatly facilitate this portfolio "favour".

    Personally, if I didn't already have a portfolio, I'd be more than willing to help out. Especially if the photographer in question has been so kind as to send me some of my events photos.

    Anyway, my sympathies are with the photographers. You guys really have it tough - so much "investment" needed just to get started and build up your portfolio! And I do agree - sometimes we tend to take your kindness for granted, so apologies if I've made any of you feel that way.
    Thanks for a voice of reason, especially from the side that had always feel us photogaphers taking advantage of them. Thanks!

    PM me if you are interested in building a portfolio.
    deadpoet
    my portfolio

  7. #47
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    Default Re: newfacepics

    I guess it seems harsh for legitimate event photographers but it was actually aimed at harsh replies from casual snappers when all the photographer have to do is not to give the photos and ignore this thread entirely. As you say, "why should I?".

    Let's put aside the model & photographes point of view and focus on individual. As an individual, we like to have free/cheap stuff or good bargain (which broadbands, hp and cable companies are taking advantage of). We also bargain on B&S. Clubsnap won't be as busy as it is now if its a paid site. I admit I welcome a good bargain. Who doesn't?

    So going back to this particular model who requested if there is anyone willing to give her a copy of the event's photo, I do not see why she deserve to be reprimanded. Was she taking advantage or was it implied by the photographers? I understand the photographer's point to be paid but the model, or anyone, has the right to ask. How did the request became so offensive that the 2nd reply assume she is now rich because she won then she must buy? And if i'm not wrong, it sound a bit like "coercing". Anyway, no bad blood with others who have legitimate arguments, just feel ashamed as fellow photography-enthusiast for some irresponsible replies.

    xxxgirl: Please don't be jealous. I am not supporting her because she is pretty.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    dawg, I really think "coercing" is too harsh a word to describe the situation and the photographer's sentiment.

    It is a fact that photo taken during these public event is the photographer's property, it is also a fact that photographers (and also models) are being taken for granted/taken for a free ride/taken to the cleaners (maybe) by the market place. Hence, when someone ask a photographer for free prints, the knee jerk reaction is "why should I?"

    This is the fact, and it's sad. But is there anything we can do to make it more equitable for everyone?

  8. #48
    Senior Member jOhO's Avatar
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    Default Re: newfacepics

    Quote Originally Posted by dawgbyte77
    xxxgirl: Please don't be jealous. I am not supporting her because she
    is pretty.
    and even if you are, who cares? as much as humans like a good bargain (as you've so rightly pointed out), (straight) men have (or try to have!) an affinity with pretty girls. FACT OF LIFE.

    how far we take that affinity, is up to individual.

    honestly, i think amelia has already gotten pics she wanted. and here we are still squabbling. who are the real losers?

  9. #49

    Default Re: newfacepics

    Quote Originally Posted by jOhO
    ...and here we are still squabbling. who are the real losers?
    Haha..
    I like the last sentence.. Had been entertainment for me..


    .

  10. #50
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    Default Re: newfacepics

    Quote Originally Posted by jOhO
    honestly, i think amelia has already gotten pics she wanted. and here we are still squabbling. who are the real losers?
    yep. she already have a few hours after she posted.

  11. #51

    Default Re: newfacepics

    just see sophie pic, very nice girl indeed. but, back here, this case to me sums out 2 things, if you think your pics good enough to charge, charge it.

    if not, just give it.

    also, becos of one event like that, so many ppl rush to shoot, really make me abit sick.

    thats why market think photography cheap, cos we ourselves make it look cheap.

    I know alot will slam me after this post, so be it.
    Eat breath LIVERPOOL!!!

  12. #52

    Default Re: newfacepics

    Quote Originally Posted by dawgbyte77
    I guess it seems harsh for legitimate event photographers but it was actually aimed at harsh replies from casual snappers when all the photographer have to do is not to give the photos and ignore this thread entirely. As you say, "why should I?".

    ...

    How did the request became so offensive that the 2nd reply assume she is now rich because she won then she must buy? And if i'm not wrong, it sound a bit like "coercing". Anyway, no bad blood with others who have legitimate arguments, just feel ashamed as fellow photography-enthusiast for some irresponsible replies.
    The "why should I" sentiment is actually very un-constructive. Anyway, I think there is this general sentiment here on this island that is built around this phrase - "What's in for me?" I had this discussion frequently with fellow photographers re giving the models (paid) a print or 2. Most seems lean on the absolutely no side since the model is paid. Personally, I will gladly give a print or 2, if they are any good. Works wonder getting referrals.
    deadpoet
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  13. #53
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    Default Re: newfacepics

    over 20 years of courtesy campaigning and training and still...

    i'm a member of a local photo club in perth, and we've had some workshop nights where models, some seasoned, some aspiring, were more than willing to lend their time to pose for our shoots. Their only request was a COPY of the prints/files of the photos taken. (one night we had 4 models, one model mum and her "model" daughter too for a portrait workshop)

    i'm all for making a buck out of our wonderful hobby, but c'mon, you guys had a "free" shoot of some lovely ladies, least you could do is say thank you by giving them a couple of pictures, or is that too difficult?
    Today is a gift; that's why it's called the present.
    The toys

  14. #54

    Default Re: newfacepics

    just gave one or two pics..is not going to kill anybody..
    watermark the photo and pass it to the model as a gesture of good will
    end of the day
    she got what she want and u got free advert.
    头可断,血可流,倩女不可不追求 carpe diem,when in doubt, hoot first,apologise later:p GALLERY

  15. #55
    Senior Member jOhO's Avatar
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    Default Re: newfacepics

    here i go with my own theory.. since i finished mounting my photos (that i got PAID for!) in a coffee table book and only meeting customer later...

    MY OPINION ENTIRELY:

    You can earn money from your photos if:

    1. you get contracted to shoot those images BEFORE you actually shoot them, and the compensation/remuneration for those images has been predetermined.
    2. your photos are unique, and not easily obtainable anywhere online or offline.
    3. you put them up for sale as stock photographs and someone actually buys them.

    this is what i think, case in point, re: whether you should get paid for ur images as a casual/hobby shooter: (pros incl, they can go down and shoot too if they are free or happy to)

    1. you did not get contracted to shoot these images, so.. no money there.
    2. there were tonnes of photographers there getting the same images and angles as you.
    3. you tell me if this is gonna work, maybe it could, but u have to put them up for sale first.

    so where does that leave us? basically, photos are worthless and it's up to u to give or not, when asked, rather politely perhaps, from a pretty girl perhaps...

    I'm not saying that we should give photographs freely, but we have to remember what our photographs are WORTH. they are worth ZIP if neither of the three points i mentioned above are fulfilled (could be more points, these are just off the top of my head). just becos u put in effort to shoot doesn't mean the effort has to be paid of in monetary terms.

  16. #56
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    Default Re: newfacepics

    My two pence worth:

    As a photographer, one of my biggest challenges is underestimating the value of my work and from what I hear and read on Clubsnap, the same is true for many photographers on Clubsnap. Even if you are a newbie (which seems to be 85% of people here ), you have still taken the expense (in time and monetary investment) to take those pictures and I think people have every right to ask for something in return.

    One of the major problems is that we always compare our work to each others, that is photographer to fellow photographer. We look for minute flaws, a touch of noise here and there, a hand that could be posed differently etc etc. We lose sight of the fact that this is a high quality photo that could not be taken by Joe Public with their PnS camera. Many of us are perfectionists and we set ourselves the highest standards,maybe too high. Show the same photo to someone in the street and they will say 'Wow' and be blown away. Yes, even you newbies.

    So, for those of you who took the time to buy your camera and lenses and flashes and memory and computer and back-up and lightshpere (you see what I am getting at) and took the time to shoot at the event, took the time to post-process them, they are worth something. In these pictures you have invested much time and money and I think anyone who wants a copy should buy them. They are yours and you own them.

    Who else gives stuff away for free in Singapore? Last thing I can think of was the McDonalds Hello Kitty thing and look what happened there.

    To another photographer here they might just be ordinary shots of an event, but to a non-photographer, they are great photos and something they could not take themselves.

    Let's all start to realise the value of our work/time/efforts/expenses and maybe the community will too.

  17. #57
    Senior Member jOhO's Avatar
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    Default Re: newfacepics

    Yo Phil,

    Nice to see u here!

    I find a need to respond to your post ahhah..

    What you've said is right, with all the time, effort and money put in by newbies or otherwise, they have every right to charge for their prints/images, AND ALSO every right to reject any request for free prints/images.

    In this case (New Face event), I still feel that the while the photos taken could command a price based on your logical reasoning, it is highly unlikely due to the points i have stated in my above, particularly point number 2.

    Perhaps you're getting more "macro" here (as in "macro"economics, not close up photography!), where we should educate the public that these images didn't come cheap for the photographers, so it shouldn't be given out cheap or free. But, as much as a newbie/layman is blown away by pics that are not so technically perfect, they are also not accustomed to paying more than say, 50c per 4R print. To most laymen, a photo is what you pay for at the lab, after sending it in for a 1 hour service, if you're in a rush.

    That's why I say, in this real world (or in singapore?), photos are only really worth money if you've been contracted to shoot it. i mean sometimes we get lucky, we shoot for fun, and pple offer to buy them off us, happened to me b4 with some fireworks photos of NDP that EVERYONE has, but for some reason they decided to offer me money. good! but otherwise, i would always have the right to reject had they requested them free.

    wonder if we're talking on the same wavelength here?
    Last edited by jOhO; 12th October 2005 at 05:31 PM.

  18. #58

    Default Re: newfacepics

    Quote Originally Posted by jOhO
    "In this case (New Face event), I still feel that the while the photos taken could command a price based on your logical reasoning, it is highly unlikely due to the points i have stated in my above, particularly point number 2."

    "i mean sometimes we get lucky, we shoot for fun, and pple offer to buy them off us, happened to me b4 with some fireworks photos of NDP that EVERYONE has, but for some reason they decided to offer me money. good! but otherwise, i would always have the right to reject had they requested them free."
    hi joho,

    aren't you contradicting yourself here? just becos the photos have been shot by many photographers from similar angles doesn't mean they are worthless. there is a great difference in quality of the photos taken at the new face contest (as well as in other similar events) by many different photographers.

    to cite your own example, you have been fortunate enuf to be paid for your NDP photos even though many ppl have taken similar photos from similar angles.

    ultimately, the worth of an image depends on supply and demand. if ppl like what they see, and want to own it, then your photo is worth money, regardless of whether u shot the photo for fun in the first place.

    just my $0.02


  19. #59
    Senior Member jOhO's Avatar
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    Default Re: newfacepics

    Quote Originally Posted by zaren
    hi joho,

    aren't you contradicting yourself here? just becos the photos have been shot by many photographers from similar angles doesn't mean they are worthless. there is a great difference in quality of the photos taken at the new face contest (as well as in other similar events) by many different photographers.

    to cite your own example, you have been fortunate enuf to be paid for your NDP photos even though many ppl have taken similar photos from similar angles.

    ultimately, the worth of an image depends on supply and demand. if ppl like what they see, and want to own it, then your photo is worth money, regardless of whether u shot the photo for fun in the first place.

    just my $0.02

    yo zaren,

    ok my bad for being too explicit saying it's "worthless", may i correct myself by saying, it's PROBABLY not worth much, even if yes, true, one photographer can shoot much better than the one directly beside him.

    my NDP example was, as i mentioned, a lucky (imo) occurance. i guess it's deemed luck becos of the way singaporeans see photography as i mentioned in my post to Phil. again, not saying it's right to request for free photos, but the public don't understand this, and I (personally) have learnt to accept that unless one of those three points i mentioned happens, i will not get paid for my images, and as such, am inclined to think they aren't worth much to the public, even tho they could mean the world to me. again repeating myself, in the event that someone finds worth in those images and want to own them or have a copu, i have every right to reject gving them away free. (let's not even get into givnig away photos of friends that we take at social events etc.... i guess that's a different scenario, altho the point could be the same: "charging for photos because of our skill and investment in equiment")

    about supply and demand, well, in this case, the supply is OVERWHELMING (if it wasn't, then u can refer to my point no2). that is why she already got her photos and we are still stuffing around in this thread! ehhehehe

    i one more cent lar.. 3 cents!! glad to have this healthy discussion.

  20. #60
    Senior Member jOhO's Avatar
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    Default Re: newfacepics

    Quote Originally Posted by wenPLUSam
    buy photos from?
    actually.. i just went thru the thread again.

    something just came to mind, that even if she wanted to buy, who's selling? how much??

    i guess she could always PM those pple that posted under "ready lights action" and ask how much.

    and then when the photographer receives the PM, do they know wat selling of photographs entail? who still owns the copyrights, and under what conditions can the buyer use the photos for? somemore these are pics of pple, so even more sensitive, i guess no need model release since it was in public??

    heck, i dun even know the answers to some of these questions and i do shoot for money regularly.. maybe i should go find out for sure, alot of unreliable sources out there, and alot of it is based on opinion or assumption, not law.

    sorry man.. just thinking aloud..

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