FZ10 and 20 Questions

[wainism]

Hi,

Looking to get either one for my hostel to cover events decently. imho, these 2 cams are prob super value for money prosumers. no budget for a dslr, so this is the next best alternative i guess

just wanna ask a few questions.

1. would these cams be suitable for sports? even indoor sports like badminton where no flash is allowed? (i know abt the 2.8 aperture, but hope to see some pix if any of u have any)

2. though 12x zoom is pretty power, would it be sufficient to cover soccer matches? or basketball? any option of a teleconvertor?

3. would these lumixers allow an external flash? cos the cam will be used for indoor events as well.

basically asking these questions cos i need to convince my main committee member(who holds the cash) abt a camera. i use a d70 myself, but wont be ard always to shoot. so looking for an alternative.

thanks guys

[tchuanye]

Originally Posted by wainism Hi, Looking to get either one for my hostel to cover events decently. imho, these 2 cams are prob super value for money prosumers. no budget for a dslr, so this is the next best alternative i guess just wanna ask a few questions. 1. would these cams be suitable for sports? even indoor sports like badminton where no flash is allowed? (i know abt the 2.8 aperture, but hope to see some pix if any of u have any) 2. though 12x zoom is pretty power, would it be sufficient to cover soccer matches? or basketball? any option of a teleconvertor? 3. would these lumixers allow an external flash? cos the cam will be used for indoor events as well. basically asking these questions cos i need to convince my main committee member(who holds the cash) abt a camera. i use a d70 myself, but wont be ard always to shoot. so looking for an alternative. thanks guys

I am not into sports photography, so I will just cover the technicalities.

1) Can't advise
2) Can add teleconvertor, must buy some adapter
3)Yes. Ext flash supported. Single contact type, no TTL. Manual adjustment.

[wainism]

so the user of the cam must be proficient in manual flash? is there any option of auto flash?

what are the popular flashes used? and usually how much do they cost?(new)

[whacker]

Hi wainism,

You might be able to find answers to your questions on the Sticky Lumix FAQ. As for Q1, it really depends on the lighting. If your D70 can't handle it without flash, don't expect the Lumix FZ10/20 pictures to come out noise free

[Feinwerkbau]

Quote: 1. would these cams be suitable for sports? even indoor sports like badminton where no flash is allowed? (i know abt the 2.8 aperture, but hope to see some pix if any of u have any)

ANS: NO. Camera focusing isn't fast enough for fast moving indoor sports. Shutter lag. Noise would also be a problem.

Quote: 2. though 12x zoom is pretty power, would it be sufficient to cover soccer matches? or basketball? any option of a teleconvertor?

ANS: Depends on where you're shooting from (for a football match). The 12X zoom should cover you up till about half the pitch (rough estimate) to enable you to get full-body close-ups of a small group of players. YES, a lot of add-on tele-converters are available. The best in terms of quality should be the OLYMPUS TC converters. There's a 1.4 x and a 1.7x.

Quote: 3. would these lumixers allow an external flash? cos the cam will be used for indoor events as well.

ANS: YES. There quite a few 3rd party manufacturere like Sigma, Vivitar (doesn't seem to be available here though, only in US and mabbie Hong Kong) and of course, the very reputable METZ brand that produce ditital flash units. All of these would give you a very wide range of BOTH AUTO and MANUAL controls, but no TTL (probably would not need it anyway). Problem is these units are often quite costly, ranging from $300+ - $700+. A risky alternative is to use a conventional flash but you risk burning the camera's circuits if the flash has a high trigger voltage. How high is acceptable? You'll have to find out the Lumix tolerance level first (research or manufacturer - though I doubt if Panasonic would ever reveal this figure), then find out the flash trigger's voltage (voltmeter).

Hope this helps.

[wainism]

thanks very much

think i have a better idea on how this works, also read up on the lumix faq..

thanks

[unseen]

Originally Posted by Feinwerkbau ANS: NO. Camera focusing isn't fast enough for fast moving indoor sports. Shutter lag. Noise would also be a problem.

I beg differ.
FZ5 focus is fast. Faster than some of the dSLR consumer lens out there. Hell alot faster than most consumer lens W/O AFS/USM/HSM.

FZ30 should be just as fast.

NOT FZ20. It's slow as anything..

Focus is not 100% accurate though, but then again neither are most dSLRs under lowlight.

Originally Posted by Feinwerkbau ANS: Depends on where you're shooting from (for a football match). The 12X zoom should cover you up till about half the pitch (rough estimate) to enable you to get full-body close-ups of a small group of players. YES, a lot of add-on tele-converters are available. The best in terms of quality should be the OLYMPUS TC converters. There's a 1.4 x and a 1.7x.

A dSLR user shouldn't be asking if 12X zoom is enough. You've mentioned you use a D70.
You should know yourself if 436mm 3.3 lens is long enough for you. Shooting from the middle line, I could shoot corner kicks good enough, with the FZ5, though an extra 100mm would be nicer.
Using a Olympus TC would be more than sufficient unless you're planning to capture their pimples.

Keep in mind, a 400mm F2.8 or F3.6 on the dSLRwould set you back about $2.5k

Originally Posted by Feinwerkbau ANS: YES. There quite a few 3rd party manufacturere like Sigma, Vivitar (doesn't seem to be available here though, only in US and mabbie Hong Kong) and of course, the very reputable METZ brand that produce ditital flash units. All of these would give you a very wide range of BOTH AUTO and MANUAL controls, but no TTL (probably would not need it anyway). Problem is these units are often quite costly, ranging from $300+ - $700+. A risky alternative is to use a conventional flash but you risk burning the camera's circuits if the flash has a high trigger voltage. How high is acceptable? You'll have to find out the Lumix tolerance level first (research or manufacturer - though I doubt if Panasonic would ever reveal this figure), then find out the flash trigger's voltage (voltmeter).

Go get a METZ, with automatic flash metering. If I'm not wrong, some dSLR users gave up on canon's eTTL coz it was so bad and bought a METZ, and use its auto meter mode. That'll solve your manual flash problem. Supposed to be more accurate.
Anyway Panasonic revealed the flash acceptable hotshoe trigger voltage, BUT... Forget about sports if you're gonna use a FZ20. The focus is just too slow for the beginner shooters. You'll have to make sure your anticipation and focusing is good enough if using the FZ20.

[k3nn3th03]

Originally Posted by unseen ... Forget about sports if you're gonna use a FZ20. The focus is just too slow for the beginner shooters. You'll have to make sure your anticipation and focusing is good enough if using the FZ20.

i STRONGLY agree...

[tao]

for indoor sports, the FZ10/20/30 simply cannot make it. period. no TTL flash system, no LCD/EVF auto gain in low light, focus hunting in lowlight, bad high ISO noise.

these cameras are really designed to perform best in good daylight, in which they can deliver good results in the right hands but for indoor, forget it.

[AncientMariner]

Having not used a FZ20, I can only comment on the FZ10 which I still own. However, I am a still very much a beginner with mediocre skill, having only started taking photos in 2004. Instead, as per your request, I am posting pics, starting from one taken within a week to the last taken less than a year within purchasing my FZ10. They are taken at random but are taken of moving subjects under different lighting and conditions. All, including the night shots, were taken handheld without using flash. I leave it to you to see if the such pics wd meet your requirements or convince your committee.











Hope this helps

[AncientMariner]

As for the best teleconverter for the FZ10, I would refer you to this article by an experienced photographer:

http://www.cs.mtu.edu/~shene/DigiCam.../Pana-15X.html

[unseen]

Originally Posted by tao for indoor sports, the FZ10/20/30 simply cannot make it. period. no TTL flash system, no LCD/EVF auto gain in low light, focus hunting in lowlight, bad high ISO noise.

No no no..
you better leave FZ30 out of what you said. no TTL yes, bad ISO performance yeah.
No ttl is not exactly a minus. It's just that you need more skill to use the camera, which most people are lacking. (Gosh, me, this newbie here haven't gotten the hang of adjusting flash manually yet. at all)

Heh heh.. Bow to the skill of a master.
As for the sort of panning shot shown.. It's not easy to do no matter which camera you use. It's the shot of master. VERY NICE!

[Feinwerkbau]

Unseen, the author of the thread asked about the FZ10 ans 20, not the 5 or 30.

And no, I don't use D70 and neither do I own one, or remember ever having said I used one.

At any rate, kudos for your additional analysis and information.

[tao]

Originally Posted by AncientMariner As for the best teleconverter for the FZ10, I would refer you to this article by an experienced photographer: http://www.cs.mtu.edu/~shene/DigiCam.../Pana-15X.html

Yep but that lens is just way too expensive. I will recommend the Oly TCON-14B which is much more value for money and probably about 95% as good but at less than 50% the price.

Originally Posted by unseen No no no.. you better leave FZ30 out of what you said. no TTL yes, bad ISO performance yeah. No ttl is not exactly a minus. It's just that you need more skill to use the camera, which most people are lacking. (Gosh, me, this newbie here haven't gotten the hang of adjusting flash manually yet. at all)

That is nonsense, saying that no TTL is not a minus is like saying that not having auto focusing on your camera is not a minus.

End of the day, if you really are into flash photography, whether you like it or not, TTL is the way to go for consistent and good results. You can quote me for this as I came from a manual camera background and I thank goodness that we have TTL nowadays.

[AncientMariner]

[quote=tao]Yep but that lens is just way too expensive. I will recommend the Oly TCON-14B which is much more value for money and probably about 95% as good but at less than 50% the price.
....[quote]

Actually I bought the LTZ10 because I couldn't find a TCON14B and an adapter at the time.
I have no idea how the 2 compare in terms of retaining image quality.
However, when comparing cost I factored in the fact that the LTZ10 does not need an adapter and comes with tripod support bracket that centres the lens on the tripod head which is essential for operating tripod/monopod mounted. Also, front and rear end caps plus a leather (probably synthetic) draw-string pouch are packaged with the LTZ10.

Unseen - You flatter me. I am no master. All I did was read the manual and follow the advice given including the technique of panning shots. They are quite easy but practice is required. The following thread will show the progress of a newcomer to panning from his 1st try. By the 2nd, he produced shots much better than mine.
http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=152163

[unseen]

Originally Posted by tao That is nonsense, saying that no TTL is not a minus is like saying that not having auto focusing on your camera is not a minus. End of the day, if you really are into flash photography, whether you like it or not, TTL is the way to go for consistent and good results. You can quote me for this as I came from a manual camera background and I thank goodness that we have TTL nowadays.

With a [size =-2]freaking[/size] expensive flash using ETTL2, flash is still not a 100% thing.
If into flash photography, then must learn manual control. using TTL in flash photography = using auto mode on camera. If you're serious about photography, I'm sure you're not about to use full auto mode on the camera ya? eTTL/iTTL/TTL = automode which calculates everything for you. Unless you're a serious photographer using full auto mode, i think your statement is kind of funny/hypocritical.

Haha though I'd agree eTTL2 makes my life alot simpler, the flash goes wrong only 20 - 30% of the time (i didn't get a METZ). Never gonna debate about that. It sure makes life really much easier